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Latest post Mon, Apr 21 2008 6:47 AM by hippy. 53 replies.
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  • Sun, Apr 20 2008 11:08 AM In reply to

    • pcrs
    • Top 25 Contributor
    • Joined on Sun, Apr 1 2007
    • Houten, The Netherlands
    • Posts 2,168
    • Philosopher King

    Re: military recruiting

    Stewart:
    While it's common to see vague mentions to Plato or Aristotle around here, there's virtually no specific references to any 'contemporary' philosopher beyond the early 1800s. As someone else mentioned somewhere on the boards, it's pretty remarkable that UPB is being heralded as no less than the greatest revolution in ethical philosophy, and yet it's only 130 pages of large type, and has no footnotes or references to any other work of analytical philosophy. 

    Dear Mr. Einstein, I have read your article about general relativity. Jesus what a brainwashed nonsense. I'm not trying to be condescending, just critical, that's ok isn't it ?  It's just that the paper is to short and the final formula e=mc^2 contains to little variables and subscripts. For an article to be true it has to have at least 200 pages in font size 11 and 2500 footnotes. I'm only half way through, but I'm all about the pursuit of truth.

    Violence has nothing with which to cover itself except the lie, and the lie has nothing to stand on other than violence. Any man who has once acclaimed violence as his method must inexorably choose the lie as his principle. Solzhenitsyn, Alexander

  • Sun, Apr 20 2008 11:12 AM In reply to

    Re: military recruiting

    Stewart:
    Stefan Molyneux:
    Now now my dear Tut - surely you see that my own paltry efforts were so pitiful that they required years of thought and hundreds of pages of proof - when you achieve real knowledge and wisdom, however, you can just "wave things off" in a bitchy and conhdescending manner without any proof at all!

    Do you think its reasonable or useful to call someone bitchy and condescending?

    That notwithstanding, I don't think it's particularly relevant how much time or effort you put into your book. What's relevant is whether the contents are useful or not. And I'm happy to share my specific thoughts about it with you, if you'd like, although I'd prefer to actually finish the book before I do so. Having read as far as I have, I'm not optimistic. It's full of equivocation and question-begging. Is it bitchy and condescending to think that? 

    Greg Gauthier:
    Tuttle just had the temerity to make what's going on here obvious...

    Which is what, exactly? Presumably you both agree that there is some value in critical discussion of behavior and philosophy. My statements aren't meant to be cruel or passive aggressive. My observation is that a lot of pretty basic philosophical mistakes are made, both on these boards, and in UPB. There is a systemic avoidance of previous philosophical reference. While it's common to see vague mentions to Plato or Aristotle around here, there's virtually no specific references to any 'contemporary' philosopher beyond the early 1800s. As someone else mentioned somewhere on the boards, it's pretty remarkable that UPB is being heralded as no less than the greatest revolution in ethical philosophy, and yet it's only 130 pages of large type, and has no footnotes or references to any other work of analytical philosophy. 

    Do you think that's not a problem? It's pretty clear that not only has Stefan not referenced any other works, but that he probably isn't all that familiar with them. I could be wrong, but the points of UPB really do suggest a lack of familiarity with some of the giants of ethical philosophy. It's just insularity to think that you can reinvent morality without specifically referencing (or at least addressing) the work of giants like Moore, Wittgenstein, Ayer, Rawls, etc. It's simply not enough to have a passing familiarity with Hume and Nietzsche and to mention them briefly.

    In Stefan's own words, "the odds that some guy on the Internet has somehow solved the philosophical problem of the ages are not particular high - in fact they would be so close to zero as to be virtually indistinguishable from it" It is made worse, much worse actually, by the fact that there is no real reference to other approaches or interpretations of the problem. Everything outside of the author's own examples and analogies has been thrown out, effectively declared irrelevant or wrong. Yet when I express criticism of his attempt, I'm "bitchy and condescending". Is that a reasonable reaction to what I've written?

    You are doing an excellent dance around actually disproving my arguments - do you seriously think that anyone does not notice this?

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  • Sun, Apr 20 2008 1:03 PM In reply to

    Re: military recruiting

    Stewart, I want to ask you a couple of questions:1. Do you believe that in order for a person to achieve something of correctness or value, they must base it on the works of someone who came before?2. Are you an anarchist?  An atheist?3. Do you consider yourself highly educated? Highly intellectual?4. Is it possible that you are fully aware of the meaning of people's posts on this thread and that you are using language to screw with their heads?5. Is is possible that you might even agree with some of the viewpoints expressed here but are just playing games by creating arguments?6. Are you offended by any of these questions?
    You are not the contents of your wallet.
  • Sun, Apr 20 2008 3:25 PM In reply to

    • Nathan
    • Top 10 Contributor
    • Joined on Thu, Mar 23 2006
    • Philadelphia, PA
    • Posts 13,120
    • Philosopher King

    Re: military recruiting

    [Youtube:_IDcu5hGXq0]
  • Sun, Apr 20 2008 4:36 PM In reply to

    • Stewart
    • Top 200 Contributor
    • Joined on Sat, Jun 3 2006
    • Boston, MA
    • Posts 257

    Re: military recruiting

    Stefan Molyneux:
    You are doing an excellent dance around actually disproving my arguments - do you seriously think that anyone does not notice this?

    Up until recently this was a conversation about slavery, not about your book. And for that topic, I've given very specific thoughts. As for your book, I hadn't even finished reading it; why would I be trying to disprove its contents? All I've said so far is that I wasn't optimistic about the claims made in the beginning. As you yourself have admitted, they're grandiose. 

    What I said about philosophical depth is true, however. Your book, whether you find this a problem or not, cites no references on the most common ethical positions in modern philosophy. That by itself isn't damning, but it's a big warning sign for anyone who picks up your text. And once one reads it, it becomes clear that you aren't referencing the concepts either. So it's not, as someone below claimed, that you're just trying to make the book more readable by leaving out jargon; it's pretty obvious that you don't have any real familiarity with significant positions such as non-cognitivism, error theory, realism and anti-realism, contractualism, etc. Where you do reference contemporary ethical theories (like relativism), you show no knowledge of its legitimate theory. You caricature it, or you speak about it as if it were a dirty word (e.g. "rank subjectivism"). If this were a term paper, it would be failed purely for a lack of research.

    You, and others here, are free to claim that this just isn't a problem at all. You can claim that your work is correct in spite of its lack of connection to or acknowledgement of any major philosophical work in the past 100 years. You can even claim that it is better because of that insularity, that it's unfettered by the luggage of modern philosophy. All of this is possible, of course; it's just not likely. Having said that, you will still naturally ask me what it is that I find objectionable about your book, so I will oblige you as best I can.

    When reading your book, I had trouble trying to determine exactly what sort of a theory you were putting forward. Even if it was an entirely new theory, I should be able to understand exactly what the theory is, but I had a very difficult time actually teasing it out. For all your claims, you seem to avoid coming right out and saying what it is that you mean within the book. There is an over-reliance on metaphors, analogies, and examples which are stretched to the limit. Again, if this were a term paper it would be failed, this time for having no clearly stated thesis and for meandering. That's kind of important. I'm not suggesting that you don't have any thesis at all; just that it seems to be hidden within the contents of your book. Usually that indicates that the author has tackled a subject that is too broad for their expertise, and certainly the subjects you are tackling are nothing if not broad. 

    UPB:
    My goal in this book is to define a methodology for validating moral theories that is objective, consistent, clear, rational, empirical – and true.

    That's a start, but it's not really a thesis. This is in the Forward, though, so it's understandable, but it means that whatever else this book does, it has promised to offer this methodology. What I don't understand, however, is why this is stated as the explicit goal of the book. The sub-title indicates that it's a "rational proof of secular ethics", which I understand to mean that the book will put forth its own moral theory, not a methodology for verifying one. You might argue that it is intended to contain both, but the point here is that before I had finished reading the Forward I was already facing two conflicting ideas about what the point of this book was supposed to be. 

    UPB:
    Valid theories must be both logically consistent and empirically verifiable

    This could be your thesis, or one of them. It's a theory which fulfills (at least conceptually) the promise that's made in the Forward. It's also a theory which you didn't come up with. It was devised by the Vienna Circle in the 1920s, based on Ludwig Wittgenstein's work in his Tractatus Logico-Philosophicus. It was taken up by A.J. Ayer in his book Language, Truth and Logic, and is the basis for logical positivism, the first major philosophical movement to come out of Britain in the 20th century. If I give you the benefit of the doubt, and assume you already knew that, then I'm left feeling that you have intentionally not acknowledged this major school of thought. Or instead, if I assume that you didn't know about positivism, then I can only reiterate that you have not done any research at all into the topics of your own book.

    In either case the most important point I can make about your above thesis is that it fails catastrophically. Your book is poorer for your ignorance/neglect of philosophical history. Karl Popper's Logik der Forschung was, I believe, the first work to illustrate that logical positivism (and your method for identical reasons) entirely fails to meet its own requirements. 

    Your theory, as I quoted it above, is not empirically verifiable. In other words, by your own claims it cannot be a valid theory. And because of that paradox it's also not logically consistent. It fails on both counts. This is really quite critical. Not only is it a philosophical failure, but it's also embarrassingly hypocritical; your book contains a section entitled, Self-Defeating Arguments.

    There are arguments against the position that I've just laid out, but they're not widely accepted. Even Ayer himself eventually stopped promoting positivism, although he did attempt to defend it. You have not even tried, however, because you've shown no awareness that there is any problem in the first place. It's a problem that, frankly, a second-year philosophy student would pick up on immediately. In a work of philosophy, you typically need to show that there is only a single problem with a theory in order to discount the rest of it. This problem, which I've chosen as one of the most stark I have encountered thus far, can be found within the first ten pages of the Part 1.

    If you would like, I will stop doing my "excellent dance" now, and I will finish reading your book. And when I'm done, if you are still interested, I will post a more comprehensive review.

    - Stewart

  • Sun, Apr 20 2008 8:00 PM In reply to

    • Stewart
    • Top 200 Contributor
    • Joined on Sat, Jun 3 2006
    • Boston, MA
    • Posts 257

    Re: military recruiting

     

    In an email from Stefan:

    Stefan Molyneux:
    Please stop posting on the FDR Board... It's neither productive nor enjoyable, and I've had a number of complaints. Sorry it didn't work out.

    As I've been asked not to, I will not post here again.  But I'm re-posting that final message because it seems relevant to this conversation. Apparently it's considered a banning offense to be intellectually critical of Stefan's books. I wonder if Stefan has the integrity not to delete critical posts as well. 

     

    - Stewart

  • Sun, Apr 20 2008 9:02 PM In reply to

    • eddiegorey
    • Not Ranked
    • Joined on Mon, Jan 7 2008
    • Rockville, Maryland
    • Posts 56

    Re: military recruiting

    I don't really understand why Stewart was asked to stop posting.  I didn't think he did anything other than provide his view.  I found the discussion to be both productive and enjoyable.

     

  • Sun, Apr 20 2008 9:48 PM In reply to

    Re: military recruiting

    I am confused too. 

    Have a look at my guide for anarchists abroad at www.sixmonthsinbrazil.com

    Check out my Anarchy and Philosophy inspired songs on youtube. http://www.youtube.com/user/davebrycekopp

  • Mon, Apr 21 2008 6:47 AM In reply to

    Re: military recruiting

    Stewart:
    It's just insularity to think that you can reinvent morality without specifically referencing (or at least addressing) the work of giants like Moore, Wittgenstein, Ayer, Rawls, etc.
    Stefan has most definitely received the torch that those analytical philosophers lit.  I don't know why you uphold rawls as ethical; he wouldn't last a day here chatting with us.
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