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Elizbaeth

Help Me Figure This Out

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I'm glad I don't know people here, personally, or I would never be able to post this. 

This might be an open-shut issue, and it might be very obvious, but I'm finding issues popping up in my own feelings and I'm not sure about they're about, where they come from, or how to deal with them. I chose to post here because I think it will be most relevant for my sons and how I parent them and relate to them as they get older. I'm pretty embarrassed about this and frightened at myself, so please be kind (always honest, though).

So it's become more apparent to me that I'm harboring some very negative feelings about male sexuality. When I start to think about my sons growing older and becoming interested in women, I get this sinking knot in my stomach, just this pit of dread and I feel afraid. I'm not exactly sure what I'm afraid of. The closest thing I can think of is that I'm afraid that, when they hit puberty and began to be sexual, that I will no longer see them as good.  I throw my thoughts into the future and try to imagine living with and enjoying teenage boys, and there is a big part of me that instantly feels like I must patrol their sexuality with this sort of aggressive attitude, almost like it will be Me vs Boy Sexuality, and one of us is going to lose. I am having a hard time imagining how we will share any level of tenderness or affection once they turn into sexual beings. It seems like everything will be tainted, and gross and vile, and like any goodness will be gone because they will be these devouring, hungry monsters snacking on taking, must endlessly taking lust and sex. Obviously this is not a good attitude, and I'm really struggling. I think I have a deep fear of male sexuality, although I know, factually that I shouldn't be afraid. It just seems like male sexuality is this cold, ghastly animal that gluts itself and uses up its prey and then just moves on to the next item on the list. I think I'm afraid that, once my sons are no longer children, that they will become bad. That male sexuality = inability to love. 

 

Yes, I'm sure this reveals tons of bad things about me that I would rather not shine light on, but I feel like, unless I figure this out, I'm just putting myself on course for a terrible time between me and my sons, and I love them very much and would like for them to love me, too - even as teenagers, and onto adulthood and beyond. 

Edit: I think this also applies to girls, too.It's just not as immediately relevant since I only have boys at the moment.  My husband and I have been talking about a third kid in the future, and I am terrified of having a girl. When I try to imagine the mother-daughter relationship, I see nothing but me doing to best to exterminate all signs of sexuality. And I mean exterminate. And I'm not talking about preventing promiscuity or anything like that. My mother-daughter fantasy is this horrible attack of me trying to kill all sexuality, and I just have this feeling that any daughter I could ever have would be my mortal enemy - especially  if she were pretty. My imagination just cannot pull up a happy mother-daughter relationship at all, even while the hypothetical daughter is an infant. 

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Hi,

I'm sorry that you are struggling with this.  It looks like a troubling situation.  I have a few thoughts and I'll try to communicate them here.  I'm making some very painful assumptions here.  Please forgive me if I'm wrong.

I just want to point out that for a variety of reasons that include values and environment, your sons might not be very sexual in their teenage years.  Maybe they will want to wait for marriage.  I don't know, but it is possible.  From the statement "when they hit puberty and began to be sexual" it sounds like "it is written!"  Nothing is predetermined and you are married, which is a very positive thing for your sons.  Men who grew up in single-mother households, as far as I understand it, "end up" with a larger portion of the problematic sexual behaviors.  I don't think you need to assume that they will be very sexual.

I think the sinking knot or anxiety that you feel when thinking about your sons' sexuality is a very real fear from an experience that you may have had of a corrupted male's sexuality, which you may not remember and which I am very sorry for.  I think this experience is central to the emotions you are experiencing (which I hope you will clarify if it is anger, fear, sadness, as it may help) and for the sake of your sons will need to be confronted at some point before they hit puberty.

Why I made the previous assumption is the fact that I see two things:

  1. Fear when you mention male sexuality
  2. A hostility towards female sexuality

I think this could be a response to sexual abuse as you are having trouble separating the evil sexual actions of your possible abuser from the healthy sexual development and curiosity of your sons.  I also noticed specifically when you were referencing killing all signs of sexuality that you did not mention your daughter's sexuality.  You referred to all sexuality without reference to who it belonged to and I think this may have been unconscious.  In contrast, I noticed that you did reference patrolling your sons' sexuality.  Once I noticed this, things clicked into place for me and I think it has a lot of meaning.  Victims of sexual abuse often internalize that it was their own fault.  They can feel very conflicted feelings about themselves and their self esteem.. of course it hardly needs to be said, it is absolutely terrible.

These feelings you are experiencing may be coming from the experiences that taught you two things:

  1. Male sexuality is evil
  2. It is the woman's responsibility to control evil male sexual actions by controlling her own sexuality (this one could use some improvement - referring to my writing)

Of course these are both false.  Male sexuality has the capacity to be both good and evil and no one can control someone else's actions without using force.  Of course the child could never control or influence the abuser's behavior in any way that justifies the abuse.  These two beliefs or conclusions as Stefan talks about in Real-Time Relationships (I don't know for sure if this context applies to conclusions) can lead you to dangerous behavior.  Controlling your sons' sexuality could leave them feeling sexually frustrated, belittled, and insecure which can push them to abusive behavior.  Controlling your daughter's sexuality could lead to her being rebellious and getting into situations where she herself gets severely hurt.  Maybe I'm just seeing things, but this could be a pattern trying to repeat itself.

I really hope I'm wrong, but if not I'm sorry again.  How did I do?  What did you experience reading this?  Where did I go wrong?

 

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My guess is that you're afraid of your boys, or future girls, becoming sluts as adults.

Well, the best way to prevent that is with education and example. I am not a slut because I know what happens to sluts and how shitty their lives are. I have so many examples of what happens if I follow my dick that I just don't do that. 

You need to get the sexist idea out of your head that "male sexuality=inability to love" though. I'm sure there are male sluts like female sluts that don't love or don't need love to screw, but I know as a man that I emotionalize sex and can't help but feel love for someone I am sexually attracted to.

And the best way to combat that is education and a desensitization to sexual stimuli. Easiest way is through regular fapping as males naturally have higher standards when they're exposed to the best glamour models on the internet and since most women don't have the bodies of glamour models, most women cannot make me feel like as vulnerable as I used to feel back when I was younger and more sensitive. 

I doubt it's all that different with girls. I think the Internet has helped a lot in terms of taming sexuality as instead of having actual sex we can now simulate sex and thus reduce the weakness that comes from having a strong sex drive. 

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11 hours ago, Siegfried von Walheim said:

You need to get the sexist idea out of your head that "male sexuality=inability to love" though.

Yes of course. That is why I mentioned my feelings and attitude at all. I don't like my feelings and want to examine them. I think it was you, actually, in the post about rites of passage, that mentioned that I maybe I shouldn't think of men as such brutes. I read that and realized that there is a very strong proclivity in my to believe that. It's an emotional response. I do want to get rid of it and feel something healthier, and more true. 

 

11 hours ago, Siegfried von Walheim said:

Easiest way is through regular fapping as males naturally have higher standards when they're exposed to the best glamour models on the internet and since most women don't have the bodies of glamour models, most women cannot make me feel like as vulnerable as I used to feel back when I was younger and more sensitive.

Ugh.... This just seems like an admission that sexual men are the horrible, vile, devouring creatures that I'm afraid they are. This it's just a glutenous, never-ending consumption of flesh, and they are innately just these dark, sick underworld things that just eat and eat and take. Like they can't love. They can only be victims of their own need to consume female beauty and sex. 

11 hours ago, Siegfried von Walheim said:

instead of having actual sex we can now simulate sex and thus reduce the weakness that comes from having a strong sex drive. 

I just feel disgust in response to reading this. I am disgusted by the drive itself. Why are men so gross as to need an outlet? I know how offensive to men this is - really, I'm sorry. But like I said I want to change what I feel, so I have to be honest about it. But all that you're saying just makes me think that men are barely-civilized animals who are unable to control themselves, and women are just terrible and bad, too. 

16 hours ago, Bob Jones said:

From the statement "when they hit puberty and began to be sexual" it sounds like "it is written!"  Nothing is predetermined and you are married, which is a very positive thing for your sons.  Men who grew up in single-mother households, as far as I understand it, "end up" with a larger portion of the problematic sexual behaviors.  I don't think you need to assume that they will be very sexual.

It feels like it is predetermined and written. I know all the stats and things like that, but the feeling doesn't match up with what I know. I feel like there is an impending disaster. 

 

16 hours ago, Bob Jones said:

I think the sinking knot or anxiety that you feel when thinking about your sons' sexuality is a very real fear from an experience that you may have had of a corrupted male's sexuality, which you may not remember and which I am very sorry for.

I've had a few bad experiences with male sexuality, yes, but none that I can remember while I was terribly young, so I feel confused about my feelings. I have listened to Stefan for a while, so my first impulse was to check childhood, but I'm drawing blanks. I have lots of feelings about these things. I know I keep using the word feeling, but it's really the most solid, truthful thing I can draw on. I don't know very  much about what I feel this way, just that I do. 

 

16 hours ago, Bob Jones said:

(which I hope you will clarify if it is anger, fear, sadness, as it may help)

I think it is fear. I feel afraid. The script goes like this - they are my sweet and good sons now, and when they hit puberty, they will become disgusting and they will not be worthy of my love because they will be gross, obsessed with hurting women and will not be capable of being good. Obviously I realize how crazy this is. But yeah, I think I'm feeling fear. 

 

16 hours ago, Bob Jones said:
  • Fear when you mention male sexuality
  • A hostility towards female sexuality

I think this is accurate. Right now I see my boys as good. I always wanted sons and I could always imagine happiness between me and young sons. When they start developing as sexual beings I feel like that is when they will be transformed into something bad. And it's like it's not even their fault. It's just what it is. But I must keep them from changing, or make them into something else altogether so that they don't become bad. 

I cannot imagine at all a peaceful time with a daughter. I feel like she is bad. She is bad because she is a girl and yes, female sexuality is the downfall of almost everything. Absolutely. Men can't help that they lust so much, and women are to blame for their beauty and attractiveness. If a girl is attractive she should do everything she can to apologize for it and to hide it, because it unleashes such monstrosity in men. A girl can't be good because she inherently triggers evil and lust, just because she is. 

16 hours ago, Bob Jones said:

Controlling your sons' sexuality could leave them feeling sexually frustrated, belittled, and insecure which can push them to abusive behavior.  Controlling your daughter's sexuality could lead to her being rebellious and getting into situations where she herself gets severely hurt. 

Right. I see some really bad outcomes for these feelings of mine. It only leads to disaster. 

 

16 hours ago, Bob Jones said:

could be a pattern trying to repeat itself.

The only pattern I can really identify is between me and my mother. I had a great relationship with her until I was a teenager. I do remember her checking me for underwear (that one always confused me. Of all the things I would do, why would I not want to wear underwear? ). I think it's pretty easy to see that I felt like it was bad to be a girl - always being asked to check and double check my clothing from every possible angle. But it was like she wanted to hide my attractiveness and also sort of liked it. Maybe I just misinterpreted a mother's protective instincts about a young, attractive daughter. But it always felt like I needed to go to some really crazy lengths to not tempt men, and yet she would also always point out my flat stomach, or would always tell me about the guys she saw looking at my butt or other lewd stuff like that. It's not even a very big thing, but I remember being so uncomfortable and confused when she told me I couldn't wear certain clothes to church anymore - just normal clothes that I had worn up until then - because the older men would look at me and have bad thoughts. Not really a crazy things, but I had been allowed to wear them before and no one cared, but when I began to grow it was wrong to do so. And they weren't revealing or crazy clothes. Just t-shirts. So I always felt terribly guilty over being slightly attractive, and then always extremely self-conscious and hyper aware of male attention. I remember her sitting me down one day before I had visitation with my dad. She held me in the ricking chair and told me to tell her in anyone touched me in a wrong way, and I remember how extremely uncomfortable that made me. I don't think anyone had done anything to me. I remember going to some type of dr when I was little - I think it was a child psychologist to help with the divorce - and feeling very, very uncomfortable. But I don't really remember. So the best I can do is chalk it up to some uncomfortable feelings. It could all be explained as just a mother worrying about her daughter, and me misinterpreting it. 

I do think I'm afraid I would repeat the pattern. I disliked the parent my mother was as I grew, and I think I'm afraid of becoming her. 

 

17 hours ago, Bob Jones said:

How did I do?  What did you experience reading this?

You were helpful. Thank you. 

I felt very anxious and a little sick to my stomach, but I felt... um, I felt, maybe, seen? Seen, I guess. 

 

Thank you!

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14 hours ago, Elizbaeth said:

Yes of course. That is why I mentioned my feelings and attitude at all. I don't like my feelings and want to examine them. I think it was you, actually, in the post about rites of passage, that mentioned that I maybe I shouldn't think of men as such brutes. I read that and realized that there is a very strong proclivity in my to believe that. It's an emotional response. I do want to get rid of it and feel something healthier, and more true. 

Work on it before your boys see themselves as broken girls. If I knew you personally, I'd just say "fuck you" (but definitely not literally) and stop knowing you. However, I don't know you personally and there are two boys on the line, so I have a bit more patience than I'd normally.

Quote

Ugh.... This just seems like an admission that sexual men are the horrible, vile, devouring creatures that I'm afraid they are. This it's just a glutenous, never-ending consumption of flesh, and they are innately just these dark, sick underworld things that just eat and eat and take. Like they can't love. They can only be victims of their own need to consume female beauty and sex. 

I could easily make an emotionally fulled spite-fest about female hypergamy and characterize women as nothing more than eternal parasites and prostitutes before the hard working and laboring men, yet are too arrogant and vain to ever admit it and thus spite men for their own baseness. 

MGTOW and feminism are two sides of the same problem.

Quote

I just feel disgust in response to reading this. I am disgusted by the drive itself. Why are men so gross as to need an outlet?

How is male sexuality gross? Reading this, it makes me wonder how you see your husband considering how "gross" he is for being a man and how "gross" your kids are for being men-to-be.

I can only guess your past, but I can easily predict your future if you don't change your mindset and impressions of men. 

Quote

I know how offensive to men this is - really, I'm sorry. But like I said I want to change what I feel, so I have to be honest about it. But all that you're saying just makes me think that men are barely-civilized animals who are unable to control themselves, and women are just terrible and bad, too. 

Considering men make everything in society, from the roads to the clothes to the houses and computers, to the very scrubs and soaps that are used to keep it all clean, I highly suggest you rethink your incredibly sexist view of men and male sexuality. It's better you're honest, but I can't fathom how you could have a remotely healthy family dynamic present or future given this "dormant sexism". 

Maybe you have a past that makes you see men as mere beasts, but that's no excuse. You, and everyone really, relies on men to keep society together and on women to build the men. If you can't learn to appreciate men--deep down--and male sexuality then frankly you have no future as a mother or a wife. I can't imagine what traumas, intentional or subconscious, you are (or could be) inflicting on your sons.

My solution at this point is very simple but ultimately up to you to figure the details out of: learn to appreciate men and male sexuality, or prepare to be a miserable old spinster. I suspect your distaste for men comes from being exposed to beta males and perhaps being a low quality woman with only a body to offer. I hope I'm wrong, but this highly offensive and sexist sentiment could only come from a dark place.

I read your inner Eliot Roger below about female sexuality and you can basically reread everything I wrote above but switch the pronouns.

The way I see it (and maybe it could alter your view): male sexuality is the seeds, female sexuality is the soil, and the next generation is the fruit, trees, and vegetation that makes the Earth beautiful. 

A man's sexuality is inherently loving because of his innate desire to invest himself into a woman and children; a woman's sexuality is inherently loving because of her innate desire to welcome and embrace a man into herself and then hold the children born of them. 

Water tends to seek its own level; aggressive men like to domesticate aggressive women; docile men like to be domesticated by docile women; assertive men like to seek companionship with assertive women. I am not saying all aggressive is good or bad, all docility is good or bad, or all assertiveness is good or bad, because all of it is necessary to build and sustain a society.

Warriors protect the workers and farmers, workers build the world, and farmers feed the world, and them both feed and house the warriors in exchange for that protection. This is the relationship between the aggressive, the passive, and the assertive. At its best, a working team. At its worst, a feud. Don't make it a feud. Learn to respect the beauty of how we evolved and the flurry of emotions and sensations that come with sexuality.

...Perhaps all this will change your course, as I am frankly far more concerned for your sons than I am for you after reading this.

Edited by Siegfried von Walheim

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Have you seen the truth about sex by Stefan? There are rational reasons to be cautious about sex but there are rational solutions as well. Not just feelings. As the Bible says, know the truth, and the truth will set you free :)



What do you see in your son's father? that is normally what your sons will see too. Is there anything to worry about? Maybe call in the show, it sounds interesting. 

I have my thoughts on this situation, but its hard to know without more info. I will just end with this,

What you see in men sexuality, can be loved and accepted by women by virtue of them freely opening up to it and accepting it. It can also be rejected by virtue of them freely refusing it. It is this free market process that creates life :)
 

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@Elizbaeth

What if you come across the opposite scenario, like having a daughter who's plain or even has a deformity?  I can relate to not being a beauty queen and my peers not letting me forget that. Even my own mother picked on me for my physical flaws. It's a wonder I don't have body dysmorphia. I guess it had to do with the fact that I focus on my inner beauty, like my intelligence and creativity.

If you have a daughter (and this goes for your sons, too), you can set an example of what true beauty is rather than letting society, peers, and the media define it by appreciating inner talents and maybe honing new ones. Perhaps, you can teach them some self-defense quips in case someone says something mean about their appearance such as "Well, since you think I'm ugly, don't look at me. Simple." or "I don't like you either, so I guess the feeling's mutual." (I never said these myself, but they're handy to have, and it'll be interesting to see how one reacts.) 

 

 

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On 7/8/2018 at 11:12 AM, S1988 said:

having a daughter who's plain or even has a deformity?

I think I might feel a stronger instinct to protect her and boost her up. 

 

On 7/8/2018 at 11:12 AM, S1988 said:

Even my own mother picked on me for my physical flaws.

Wow. I’m so sorry. That’s rough! I’m sure she must have taken out her insecurities on you. It must have been very hard to have a mother do that to you. 

 

On 7/8/2018 at 11:12 AM, S1988 said:

f you have a daughter (and this goes for your sons, too), you can set an example of what true beauty is rather than letting society, peers, and the media define it by appreciating inner talents and maybe honing new ones. 

True beauty is a rare thing, and I would love to be an example of it for a child. 

 

On 7/8/2018 at 11:12 AM, S1988 said:

"Well, since you think I'm ugly, don't look at me. Simple." or "I don't like you either, so I guess the feeling's mutual." (I never said these myself, but they're handy to have, and it'll be interesting to see how one reacts.) 

I think this is great. I never really learned to say anything like that or to stand up for myself, and I think it would be awesome for a child to be able to do that. 

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