Jump to content

Western Civilization’s Last Stand

The Art of The Argument

Available Now | artoftheargument.com

Freedomain Radio Amazon Affiliate Links: United States - Canada - United Kingdom

Sign up for the Freedomain Mailing List: fdrurl.com/newsletter

Recommended Posts

Hi there,

(part of a series of essentials) Complete the sentences with what you think is most important, then in the second with what you think helps a great deal.

Willpower requires...., because...

and

In order to possess willpower it's greatly beneficial...

 

I'm looking forward to seeing your inputs.

Barnsley

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Willpower requires repetition, because it can be trained.

In order to possess willpower it's greatly beneficial to read the book by Roy Baumeister.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi @ofd

Your recommendation(piece of reading) is noted and I will have a look once I understand why I should, pardon my hesitation.

5 hours ago, ofd said:

Willpower requires repetition, because it can be trained.

My aim was for the source, obvious generalisations aren't so. (Reading back my comment I assume it's worth to clarify...)

Causation, depending on. (Reckon you get my meaning.)

Nevertheless, considered the input.

Have a good one,

Barnsley

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Willpower requires conscientiousness because you will understand why you should do something or if you should restrain impulses.


In order to possess willpower, it's greatly beneficial to be virtuous, free, truthful and courageous 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, barn said:

Willpower requires...., because...

In order to possess willpower it's greatly beneficial...

Ah, this is my kind of topic.
Willpower requires a want , because without without an aim, there is only unactualised will; will is an intrinsic human component with the capacity for free action.
In order to possess willpower it's greatly beneficial to exercise it. If you don't exercise it, you will lose it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi @Mishi2

While I see and partially agree with the source (my failing really, I just guess there's something deeper than an arbitrary 'want'. As in = Don't intend to belittle your wording though.) I would like to dig deeper.

As of the beneficial, can't say I disagree other than plain and simply 'fair enough' and 'certainly can't go wrong'.

Appreciate your input, @Mishi2

Have a good one!

Barnsley

p. s. : Trying to get somewhere here, no disrespect or talking down from a high horse here, men/ladies! I'd be certainly called out for, given the makup of this fine community! You bet I would! :-}

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

[Any indicators how to become fancier on formatting? Nevermind, non-essential.]

Could it be(?),

Willpower requires integration at heart, because there's the certainty, the kind of which is... is. (there goes my linguistic reach, hopefully gets through. It's how I see it.)

As for the beneficial,

In order to possess willpower it's greatly beneficial to experience fear and experiment with courage.

 

So people know 'what direction my wind was blowing from'. Feel free to hack at it, if you feel the need for it.

Barnsley

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Willpower requires courage; because courage is required to face the real and imagined obstacles that require willpower in the first place.

Willpower is required to successfully achieve ambitions grander than "work at McDonalds; Bang this thirty-something year old single mom".

As was said above, willpower can be gained by successful practice of it. I'd suggest starting small like keeping a healthy daily routine of waking up early, doing exercises, sleeping before midnight, etc. and doing stuff that you can take pride in; like a job that is a stepping stone to a career, regular work towards a project (especially if your career is oriented around regular work by your own direction instead of by someone else's order), praying/meditating to learn about one's own past mistakes and what to learn from them, etc. 

As also said above, I think having a strong will for something is also important. Wanting something can be a great incentive for doing the necessary steps for achieving it. It may make it easier to exercise willpower since you can have faith that by doing X it'll lead to Y. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Willpower requires good health and overall well-being, because good feelings counterbalance the discomfort of self control.

In order to possess willpower it's greatly beneficial to exercise, because it  physiologically puts you in a K-selected state. (Or so I believe)

Also, making yourself do more than necessary is self-sabotage. Your unconscious mind knows when you are wasting time, and it will shut off your motivation. I can attest to that from personal self-observation, and Tim Ferriss talks about this  frequently. (The minimum effective dose principle) This is a topic I've been obsessed with, so I can recommend a some resources.

-The Power of Habit by Charles Duhigg (Life Changing)

-Anything by Tim Ferriss on this topic. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi @neeeel

 

2 hours ago, neeeel said:

Willpower requires belief. Belief in willpower, belief that you can attain what you want. Belief that you can act

I might be wrong (doubt it pretty strongly, but hey it's a short quote..), isn't what you are proposing a circular argument?

Barnsley

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi @Will 001

 

9 hours ago, Will 001 said:

Willpower requires good health and overall well-being, because good feelings counterbalance the discomfort of self control.

 

I tend to disagree here, given there are a great number of sick (unhealthy physically) people who are shining sources of examples in 'healthy' willpower, especially those whom possess it regardless of the obvious drive to get healthy. i.e.: provable prior track record.

On the other hand if I extrapolate and take your meaning regarding mental health, it's pretty much the direction I believe the answer lies. Although I wish to dig deeper to reveal more layers of causation still.

9 hours ago, Will 001 said:

In order to possess willpower it's greatly beneficial to exercise, because it  physiologically puts you in a K-selected state. (Or so I believe)

Can't argue with that, well said I believe...(me too).

9 hours ago, Will 001 said:

Your unconscious mind knows when you are wasting time, and it will shut off your motivation. I can attest to that from personal self-observation, and Tim Ferriss talks about this  frequently. (The minimum effective dose principle) This is a topic I've been obsessed with, so I can recommend a some resources.

-The Power of Habit by Charles Duhigg (Life Changing)

-Anything by Tim Ferriss on this topic. 

I'm strongly inclined all forms of 'meco system work', (nitpicking, pardon) would use a rather more positive language to contribute changes in the unconscious (in order to maintain, continuously enable a healthy dose of curiosity) but in essence I think we generally 'see eye to eye'. Furthermore you have also sold me on the idea of checking out the resources.

Your constructive comments are much appreciated,

Have a good one,

Barnsley

  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, barn said:

Hi @neeeel

 

I might be wrong (doubt it pretty strongly, but hey it's a short quote..), isn't what you are proposing a circular argument?

Barnsley

You are possibly correct, yes. Will power only exists if we believe in it. Is that circular?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

To @neeeel

5 minutes ago, neeeel said:

You are possibly correct, yes. Will power only exists if we believe in it. Is that circular?

I thought so, glad we agree.

To your question :

1. No problem but that wasn't the question I interested to discuss.

2. No, not really. I guess that's more like flawed argument. Things existing doesn't depend on whether we believe it in the objective world. i. e. : not seeing a problem does not make it disappear (perception wise might but thats flawed too)

Barnsley

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, barn said:

To @neeeel

I thought so, glad we agree.

To your question :

1. No problem but that wasn't the question I interested to discuss.

2. No, not really. I guess that's more like flawed argument. Things existing doesn't depend on whether we believe it in the objective world. i. e. : not seeing a problem does not make it disappear (perception wise might but thats flawed too)

Barnsley

things that exist for real dont depend on whether we believe in it, yes. Things that dont exist , people can believe in them and they ( or the belief in them) can be motivating factors 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi @Siegfried von Walheim

 

20 hours ago, Siegfried von Walheim said:

Willpower requires courage; because courage is required to face the real and imagined obstacles that require willpower in the first place.

Fair enough. From what does courage get born from?

 

20 hours ago, Siegfried von Walheim said:

Willpower is required to successfully achieve ambitions grander than "work at McDonalds; Bang this thirty-something year old single mom".

Well, duh. Besides, thanks for reinforcing it I had always believed it.

20 hours ago, Siegfried von Walheim said:

willpower can be gained by successful practice of it. I'd suggest starting small like keeping a healthy daily routine of waking up early, doing exercises, sleeping before midnight, etc. 

I don't think so. Routines can be gained, habits alike. Willpower is much more than industriosness. Yet again, I do agree with how that(positive routines) can be reinforced.

20 hours ago, Siegfried von Walheim said:

having a strong will for something is also important. Wanting something can be a great incentive for doing the necessary steps for achieving it.

Sure. Stubbornness is a possible positive under certain circumstances. It also can lead to the illusion of strong willpower.

 

Your inputs are much appreciated. Thanks.

Barnsley

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi @neeeel

 

6 hours ago, neeeel said:

Things that dont exist , people can believe in them and they ( or the belief in them) can be motivating factors 

I have no interest in fantasies, diversions from reason & evidence. Maybe we can have a convo about your proposed topic on a different sub, some other day.

Have a good one,

Barnsley

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi @ofd

 

5 hours ago, ofd said:

Baumeister researched willpower in a scientifc way and gives recommendations how to improve it.

 

Noted. Much appreciated.

Barnsley

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Maybe it would help to have some baseline personality types to look at. In terms of having the most willpower those most conscious of their thinking and passions with an internalised ethos (ENTJ's) could perhaps be said to have the most will power imho, although personalities do change and someone could go to an ESTJ with slightly less willpower. Those heavy in introverted sensing imho will tend to be the conservatives and social conservatives and more akin to stubbornness, making environmental changes more significant, than any ethical or abstract argument.

 

Thinking (Most Masculine): Te (conscious, Masc), Ti (unconscious, Fem)

Intuition (Masculine): Ni(Formulaic, Masc), Ne(Pattern Matching, Fem) 

Sensing (Feminin): Se(New Material, Masc), Si(Old Material, Fem)

Feeling (Most Feminin): Fi(Intrinsic Motivation, Masc), Fe (Extrinsic Motivation, Fem) 

image.png.5ced0ccd51cd4c2c8e0dbe6f2f0d3013.png

ENTJ: Executive (Maximum Willpower, Most Masculine Personality) Napoleon, Julius Caesar, Trump, Aristotle, Stefan(?) 

INTJ: Scientist (High Willpower) Thomas Edison.

INTP: Thinker (Low Willpower) Socrates, Plato, Nietzsche, C.G.Jung. 

ENTP: Visionary (Minimal Willpower) Da Vinci.

ENFJ: Teacher (No Willpower, Collective)

ESFJ: Provider/Carer (No Willpower, furthest from it, Most Feminin Personality) - Most Instinctual hormonal?, mother and her young........

ISFP: Artist (Fanaticism) Van Gogh, Mozart.

INFP: Healer (Altruism) Jesus Christ. Florence Nightingale

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi @RichardY

35 minutes ago, RichardY said:

Maybe it would help to have some baseline personality types to look at.

If you ask me, no. (my opinion, take it what's it worth, usual caveats respectfully)

I would much rather see how you answered the proposed sentence completion. Please understand I was once into (16 personalities) the same framework but upon doing Jordan B. Peterson's big 5 personality assessment...All my questions regarding this area got answered, won't ever feel the need to do anything similar again. It was like realising the difference between 'abstract, to-a-degree tangible categorisation' vs 'What do you bring to the table and how that and other traits exist/interact based on real life studies & assessments now knowing all this stuff go and clean up your room!'.(giggles)

I do realise me saying this has the tendency to belittle an otherwise very interesting approach, I just think having 5 compared to 16 (16=much more complex+composite abstracts and a real danger of getting lost among all the minute nuances) supplemented with the Jordan B Peterson style objective pointers&clarifiers quite frankly provides a greater and much steadier 'grip' to anyone. I sincerely think.

I had taken similar tests (some offline, others from the net, some lousy, others from popular sites) and usually would get an ENTJ (with p) ... in case you cared/wondered.

All that said, it all changed when I discovered the pointers / 'simple English' explanations alongside with an instructive breakdown of the significance & dynamics regarding the 5 big personality aspects, with comparable data points handing me true tools to work with. On a second note, I did come along a long way(had an obsession with personality, hand writing, body language, NLP... few more I don't dare to mention being quirky :-) and can't be sure if there was another 'X' factor I'm not yet aware of. Doubt it, though because all that I've learnt (generalisation I know, trying to be practical) seemed distilled, de-weeded and readily available in the big 5 assessment.

Have a good one,

Barnsley

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@barn

Had a few ideas I thought relevant to Willpower, kind of a big subject to tackle imho. "Hack at it" like sugar cane and "distil" it down. Make some spirits or something eventually.

-----------

Willpower requires....an Ethos (in the affirmative) ,which must be embodied(i.e not just some words or conceptual ideas. For example, holy sacrament or "service guarantees citizenship")  because the complexity of being is far greater than for any one person to comprehend.

In order to possess willpower it's greatly beneficial... 1) to not be vain. 2) live in a community that shares an Ethos.

-----------

Courage requires kindness.

------------

Trials of Heracles. The imposition of the masculine upon the feminin. Trial 5)Washing out the stables, a situation where "willpower alone in insufficient". Willpower part of the trials, not the task in itself.

------------------

Tangible vs Abstract. The MBTI (INTP personally, but also was close at one point to ISTP) is abstract, I tend to think of it as semaphores or valves in a way 1)Thinking & Feeling 2)Intuition & Sensing. But I guess with "The Big Five" can look at particular instances and consider ways of dealing with effects or not. Try to "optimise", as if designing an RPG (Roleplaying Game Character). Whether this could be considered as a manifestation of freewill or the evolution towards greater consciousness.

Another thing is that "The Big Five" also split into subtypes, so Conscientiousness is: Orderliness and Industriousness. Maybe you have some ideas on how to influence the personality traits? 

Big Five

Agreeableness - High Agreeableness; perhaps correlated with high ext feeling. I've gotten "very low agreeableness" on a couple of Big Five Tests. I wonder if it is possible to destroy Agreeableness all together as a concept.

Neuroticism - High Neuroticism; correlated with Int Sensing and Int thinking. Low Neuroticism = Sloth, High = Rabbit.  To lower neuroticism apparently raising conscientiousness makes a difference, smoking a joint perhaps or perhaps meditation.

Conscientiousness - High Conscientiousness; with Int Intuition(orderliness), High Int Sensing(orderliness), High Ext Thinking(Industriousness). I'd imagine that Conscientiousness is the most limitless of the Big Five. Perhaps a "stable" society will tend to raise industriousness, where as a "disorderly" society "order", which may occur gradually or through mass slaughter.

Openness - High openness; High Ext Intuition, High Int Thinking, High Ext Sensing. Which makes me think that increasing neuroticism will also tend to increase openness on an intellectual level. Where as those with high preferences for material resources or novel items (High Ext sensing) will tend to be leftists and open border advocates.

Extraversion - High Extroversion;  Ext Sensing, Ext Intuition, Ext Thinking.

--------------------

Why covet willpower? multiplier factor?

--------------------

Psalm 23

23 The Lord is my shepherd; I shall not want.

2 He maketh me to lie down in green pastures: he leadeth me beside the still waters.

3 He restoreth my soul: he leadeth me in the paths of righteousness for his name's sake.

4 Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me.

5 Thou preparest a table before me in the presence of mine enemies: thou anointest my head with oil; my cup runneth over.

6 Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life: and I will dwell in the house of the Lord for ever.

--------------

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Hi @RichardY

I'll come back soon, re-emerging from my bat-cave, hopefully with a more learned looking response. Your cerebral dump(meant it with respect) is much appreciated as you've given me pointers and structure(!!!) to go along with it.

Till then, don't let your axe go blunt or your arms tire!

Barnsley

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 11/14/2017 at 11:15 AM, ofd said:

Willpower requires repetition, because it can be trained.

In order to possess willpower it's greatly beneficial to read the book by Roy Baumeister.

 

I agree but, I would imagine a variety of elements are at work. Nature vs. nurture, environmental factors, genetics, etc. I think someone in an environment that is highly motivated can help boost one's motivation and willpower. I am not saying they become a workhorse but, definitely boost a deviation or so. Hard to quantify exactly but, it is a interesting feat. I read the book, "Talent is overrated" by Geoff Colvin. The book depicts world class while debunking the myth of people dismissing greatness as "talented" by pointing out the early beginnings. Starting at a young age, putting in countless hours builds up those neural pathways in the brain, and making that mind/body connection. The book does what all great books do in asking a question; what does world class talent require? It goes onto point out that a world class violinist has put in absurd amount of hours by the age of nine. Someone starting out much later in life would never be able to catch up. Someone like Sidney Crosby or Wayne Gretzky dismissed as world class talent but, it would then dismiss the time they spent playing pond ice hockey, stick handling, getting stronger, putting in the time, and becoming world class.

I think someone else could be putting in the time and not getting the result these men did but, the book put out a premise that was similar to that 10,000 hour route to world class. There is no escaping hard work even if "talented" at one's baseline. i believe willpower and motivation coincides with that driving force that got these people at practice waking up at 5am, eating healthy, training their mind, and body to fire at such a high level. It is a incredible read I highly recommend for anybody interested.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

It is a incredible read I highly recommend for anybody interested.

Sounds like a great book to read. Thanks for the recommendation.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×

Important Information

By using this site, you agree to our Terms of Use.