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g0at

Help with a debate - IQ and Race article

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I am having a wonderful debate with a friend about race and IQ. He presented this study and article on race and IQ  as proof that IQ is determined by SES (Social economic status). I hadn't heard of this one even though it flies in the face of all of the other twin studies.  
https://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2013/05/why-people-keep-misunderstanding-the-connection-between-race-and-iq/275876/
https://www.psychologytoday.com/files/u81/Turkheimer_et_al___2003_.pdf

What do you all think?

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5 minutes ago, g0at said:

I am having a wonderful debate with a friend about race and IQ. He presented this study and article on race and IQ  as proof that IQ is determined by SES (Social economic status). I hadn't heard of this one even though it flies in the face of all of the other twin studies.  
https://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2013/05/why-people-keep-misunderstanding-the-connection-between-race-and-iq/275876/
https://www.psychologytoday.com/files/u81/Turkheimer_et_al___2003_.pdf

What do you all think?

First of all, the original IQ test was invented by a frenchman intent on assessing what children might need help with in school. The IQ test that we have today obviously does not do this. The IQ test is literally the version the nazis used to "justify" their hatred of jews and others. Hitler had a 140 iq, Rudolf hoess had a 138 iq, LOL. Hitler was a piece of crap and was dumber than hell. He destroyed germany and he didn't care how many of his own people's lives were taken. He just kept pressing for more war, while many of his own inner circle tried to assassinate him to end the nation's suffering. 

IQ score means diddly squat unless you use the frenchman's iq test as he intended - to figure out how to help children overcome things they missed in their education. In which case the IQ score changes once you have learned something more.

Now, as far as race is concerned, it has nothing to do with intelligence as intelligence is learned. You can't even talk or walk or for the most part even SEE properly when you are born. These things are learned. If you are in a coma for 10 years, do you think that if you wake up all of a sudden that you'd be able to walk around like normal? Beacuse of superior genetics right? LOL.

If you want to be able to do ANYTHING, you have to learn it and then maintain it. Only the basic impulses and instincts are genetic, as even the strongest and healthiest of us bone structure/muscular/symmetry wise will waste away into nothing without proper maintenance, diet, exercise and HARD WORK. You have NOTHING at all without WORKING FOR IT. The same goes for intelligence. There are many people out there who have been in horrible accidents, basically a vegetable for months, then they wake up from a coma, realize their mental faculties aren't what they used to be, but try extremely hard to recover, and then end up becoming engineers or programmers or something like that. It just takes work.

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Philociraptor, 

 

Do you differentiate knowledge and intelligence? 

 

Did you know that your iq score peaks around age 8, and won't increase over time? No matter how much work or knowledge you aquire? 

 

 

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There are many people out there who have been in horrible accidents, basically a vegetable for months, then they wake up from a coma, realize their mental faculties aren't what they used to be, but try extremely hard to recover, and then end up becoming engineers or programmers or something like that. It just takes work.

Give us a few examples of people who did that.

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8 hours ago, g0at said:

Philociraptor, 

 

Do you differentiate knowledge and intelligence? 

 

Did you know that your iq score peaks around age 8, and won't increase over time? No matter how much work or knowledge you aquire? 

 

 

Intelligence and knowledge are interchangeable. Intellect is just more of a stout interpretation of "knowledge", that's because "knowledge" is a word that can be applied to things other than humans. Even a website can contain knowledge. Wikipedia might be a bit biased but since you can edit it as well, you can also try to make it LESS biased. But it's a good source of many knowledge bases. Knowledge is simply information. Intellect is information that's already inside of YOU.

My IQ has changed so much it's ridiculous. Lol.

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On 10/9/2017 at 1:39 PM, g0at said:

Found a video that talks about this very specific arguement... 

 

that's hilarious. But you do realize that just because an SJW says something doesn't make it automaticaly false, correct? Laci Green was an SJW on youtube for a long time, kinda changing into a center-left now. But she was a gigantic SJW feminist. Except I watched her channel and while it's true that politics isn't her thing, it's also truth that her understanding of right and wrong at the individual level shows understanding of empathy, emotions and human rights. I agree with her that there are too many constraints on what people can say or do, and I find laci green to be exceptionally knowledgeable about sexual rights. She has horrible ideas on how to deal with gun control but she does make good points about there not being enough sexual freedom in the world. 

Remember that not all SJW are violent anti-fa combatants. Some are just brainwashed and the ones that are only brainwashed can be helped. They generally speak enough truth, but are terrified of the idea of confronting our government and it's tyranny so they tow the line and bow down to it expecting it to understand. These particular people just need to be red pilled.

However, any violent SJW is beyond help. They are evil and should be in jail.

Again, on the subject of environment being the prime driver behind "IQ", why don't you read a quote from the INVENTOR of the IQ test himself?

Quote

"Before explaining these methods let us recall exactly the conditions of the problem which we are attempting to solve. Our purpose is to be able to measure the intellectual capacity of a child who is brought to us in order to know whether he is normal or retarded. We should therefore, study his condition at the time and that only. We have nothing to do either with his past history or with his future; consequently we shall neglect his etiology, and we shall make no attempt to distinguish between acquired and congenital idiocy; for a stronger reason we shall set aside all consideration of pathological anatomy which might explain his intellectual deficiency. So much for his past. As to that which concerns his future, we shall exercise the same abstinence; we do not attempt to establish or prepare a prognosis and we leave unanswered the question of whether this retardation is curable, or even improvable. We shall limit ourselves to ascertaining the truth in regard to his present mental state."

https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Alfred_Binet#The_development_of_intelligence_in_children.2C_1916

Remember that "retarded" in binet's day meant "slow", not deformed/down syndrome etc. Like how you can buy fire retardant clothes? Yeah the word "retard" wasn't used in such a derogatory sense as it is today. He is saying that he believed the ENVIRONMENT to be the biggest factor, not geneology.

Another Alfred Binet quote from the link above:

Quote

It seems to us that in intelligence there is a fundamental faculty, the alteration or the lack of which, is of the utmost importance for practical life. This faculty is judgment, otherwise called good sense, practical sense, initiative, the faculty of adapting one's self to circumstances. A person may be a moron or an imbecile if he is lacking in judgment; but with good judgment he can never be either. Indeed the rest of the intellectual faculties seem of little importance in comparison with judgment.

What binet is saying here is that GOOD judgment makes someone smart, BAD judgment makes someone stupid. He is saying that judgment is the sole progenitor of ALL intelligence. He says that judgment can be altered. Once altered, the person with altered (good) judgment can never be stupid!

Alfred Binet believed that environmental factors greatly affected an intelligence score. When the Nazis used the iq test to demonize jews and other minorities in germany during the 1930s, Alfred Binet objected to this. He only intended that his iq test be used to help children, not stigmatize them.

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23 hours ago, Philociraptor said:

Intelligence and knowledge are interchangeable. Intellect is just more of a stout interpretation of "knowledge", that's because "knowledge" is a word that can be applied to things other than humans. Even a website can contain knowledge. Wikipedia might be a bit biased but since you can edit it as well, you can also try to make it LESS biased. But it's a good source of many knowledge bases. Knowledge is simply information. Intellect is information that's already inside of YOU.

My IQ has changed so much it's ridiculous. Lol.

I don't think so...

Knowledge is information acquired, while intellect or intelligence is your cognitive ability. Or, the ability to use knowledge, predict the future, solve problems, etc. It's the sheer horsepower of your brain. 

You gain knowledge and 'wisdom' over the course of your life. This allows you to make good decisions. 

Knoweldge is not the same thing as being intelligent. Even though most people confuse the two and refer to very knowledgeable people as 'smart '. These people could be very intelligent. They may not be. 

A plumber may have been to school, and spent 15 years in the field working. His knowledge and expertise is immense. However, he is no more intelligent for doing this. An IQ 160+ engineering student with no knowledge of plumbing may be able to step into a construction site and solve a complicated problem with a few hours of research that that plumber may never be able to come up with. This isn't hypothetical, I experienced  this recently  ( I do real estate investment on the side). The plumber even said ' I would have never come up with that, not in a million years'. The young student is brilliant. He was able to hop on the internet, research a few things and come up with a solution that honestly... I don't really understand. 

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17 hours ago, g0at said:

I don't think so...

Knowledge is information acquired, while intellect or intelligence is your cognitive ability. Or, the ability to use knowledge, predict the future, solve problems, etc. It's the sheer horsepower of your brain.

Horsepower? LOL. Do you realize that horsepower is about how much is needed to pull or lug something around? It has nothing to do with "intelligence". A horse attempting to pull a child on a plastic toy trike is overkill. In fact, my dog can do it better because his movements won't be so abrupt and potentially dangerous to the child. If you are going to tell me that the dog might attempt to rocket off down the road like a bat out of hell, what do you think will happen if the horse does that? Obviously, you'd make sure that neither would try to just go crazy and take off like a rocket, but it would better to use the dog :) 

Knowledge is something that can be outside of yourself. By saying "Knowledge is something that is already acquired", but acquired by who? Are you saying you know everything? Aha. So knowledge is something that can exist outside of the individual. Intelligence therefore, is what You have inside of YOURSELF. There is a reason intelligence and information have the same first 2 letters :) The difference is, what is it inisde of? Intelligence is inside of you. Information however, like knowledge, can exist outside of you but inside of someone or something else :)

Nonetheless, you can still say "i have internal knowledge" and that will be the same thing as saying "I have intelligence".

Quote


You gain knowledge and 'wisdom' over the course of your life. This allows you to make good decisions.

Yes, this is also called intelligence. I've explained that already. 

Quote



Knoweldge is not the same thing as being intelligent. Even though most people confuse the two and refer to very knowledgeable people as 'smart '. These people could be very intelligent. They may not be.

You can't be intelligent without learning. I'm sorry. You do not have an innate ability to walk, speak or even see properly when you are born. You are simply wrong. If youa re in a coma for 10 years, and you wake up. You're not automatically going to be able to talk, remember conversational skills as well, or even WALK properly. It will take you time to relearn those things. If you don't use it, you'll lose it.

Quote



A plumber may have been to school, and spent 15 years in the field working. His knowledge and expertise is immense. However, he is no more intelligent for doing this. An IQ 160+ engineering student with no knowledge of plumbing may be able to step into a construction site and solve a complicated problem with a few hours of research that that plumber may never be able to come up with. This isn't hypothetical, I experienced  this recently  ( I do real estate investment on the side). The plumber even said ' I would have never come up with that, not in a million years'. The young student is brilliant. He was able to hop on the internet, research a few things and come up with a solution that honestly... I don't really understand. 

He is intelligent. If someone else doesn't know how to do plumbing, then he would need to learn how to in order to get certified. perhaps the plumber could teach him.

Your problem is you've been far too brainwashed by the doctrine of public schooling for too long. You think if you get something done faster that somehow you're "better than" someone else. As if speed has anything to do with intelligence. You'd only be faster at something if you've already done something similar to it before. If you've never done it before, then you're going to be slow. Depending on what you have learned and WHETHER OR NOT THAT SKILL ALLOWS ITSELF TO BE APPLIED TO SPECIFIC OTHER NEW SKILLS, your speed can vary greatly.

Let's try an example.  If you know how to do something, do you know how to do that thing? Yes you say, ok so how does that make you less intelligent if you've learned it slower than someone else? Let's say the plumber took awhile to learn plumbing. Ok. Now this new guy that he tries to teach learns a little faster than he did. That's because he went into it with a greater learned skill set. The plumber came from a low income family and did not even finish high school. The new apprentice in fact was highly educated and went to college and had a degree in engineering. Certainly, because of the level of exposure the apprentice has already had in the fields of learning, he would more than likely have an advantage in being able to learn how to be a plumber, in that he can simply learn more quickly, whereas the lowly plumber expert had to learn all of those skills that the apprentice was taught in school, on the job as an apprentice. 

The only real difference between the plumber teacher and the apprentice, is that one learned many useful skills before plumbing and the other learned those AS he started plumbing. That is the only reason there is a speed difference.

Now let me ask you this. If the plumber is the expert, wouldn't he be able to apply his specific knowledge of plumbing to other similar skill sets BETTER and FASTER than the apprentice who is new to the job? Of course. So by that logic, the plumber is in fact more intelligent than the apprentice. But intelligence is not "all encompassing". It's specific. You maybe intelligent at chemistry, I might be intelligent at computer programming. Intelligence is simply what YOU have learned. Knowledge by itself can be recognized as objectively existing outside of you, but knowledge you take in is called intelligence. 

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1 hour ago, ofd said:

For the better or the worse?

it went up. Of course after realizing the bullshit that is the IQ test, as it is no longer used to help people overcome under-education, I stopped taking them. Most IQ test givers have a gigantic ego with something to prove to the world, at your expense anyways. Whether they're black or white, they're often racist as well.

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Of course after realizing the bullshit that is the IQ test, as it is no longer used to help people overcome under-education, I stopped taking them.

What is undereducation and how can you overcome it?

 

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it's not having enough education. You overcome it by getting educated.

Do you have an example where that happened on a large scale?

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2 minutes ago, ofd said:

Do you have an example where that happened on a large scale?

well. I didn't know anything about programming or computers before I started reading and experimenting with it. Now I understand it pretty well. 

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I didn't know anything about programming or computers before I started reading and experimenting with it. Now I understand it pretty well. 

So anybody who reads a few books about programming can become a coder?

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14 hours ago, ofd said:

So anybody who reads a few books about programming can become a coder?

well most of my knowledge came from hands on experience, so no. You don't need to read books. But you need to try at least :)

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3 hours ago, ofd said:

As a hobby?

for a living actually, well, eventually. It's a serious endeavor. Did you know that many computer transistors already have ternary capability? This is because you can reverse their polarity. They have NpN or pNp type of transistors. That means the N sandwich has 2 outputs from the 2 Ns, in 2 different directions. Same for the pNp sandwich. They're called bipolar transistors. The problem is they are never used that way because of problems with fast polar switching and heat. So i'm working on trying to fix that problem. You can do it slowly and it won't hurt it for now.

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