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Gold

Evidence for Romanian Orphanages Resulting Psychopathy

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I think i heard Stefan mention that the (famous communist dictator Ceaușescu's) Romanian orphanages giving the babies food but no physical love/care/attention resulted in the orphans subsequently exhibiting psychopathic behaviors like throwing cats out of windows etc. I would greatly appreciate any scientific studies proving the psychopathy resulting from those Romanian orphanages as i seem to not be able to find them myself after much searching. Or otherwise correct me if i am wrong and help to clarify what Stephan meant when mentioning the Romanian orphanages in regards to psychopathy?

( My main question is about the psychopathy as i am really looking for that information and cannot find any. But here is another side question: I think Stefan also might have mentioned that the orphaned babies were adequately fed, but were dying because of attention deprivation. If so, it would help to see sources proving that the nutrition, ensuring proper level of the babies' physical health, was in fact adequately provided in the orphanages for all babies back then.)

Help in finding relevant research information would be greatly appreciated.

Thank you in advance.

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Stefan mentioned quite a number of times: 1. adequate nutrition in Soviet Romanian orphanages, and 2. psychopaths resulting from those orphanages due to lack of attention to the babies even though the food was provided. Any Stefan followers knows any research on the two questions above? Come on people, this is a major question Stefan builds his chain of reasoning. 

I sure did try to look for it myself, but it could be buried in some archives or something. If you know sources with the actual scientific research illuminating the issue i would appreciate any hints. (had to bump this!)

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On 10/15/2017 at 8:55 AM, Drew Davis said:

http://www.apa.org/monitor/2014/06/neglect.aspx

http://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog.php?isbn=9780674724709

These should get you started, for this topic. The APA sight has citations for further articles, which if you can get access to, will have further citations or be cited by other studies which might cover the topic.

Did you even read the question asked?

I was looking for scientific data proving Stef's claims that in Romanian orphanages 1. the nutrition was adequate, 2. violent psychopaths were the result of the babies being fed but otherwise neglected and abandoned. Which part of what you linked proves at least one of the two claims?

Did you even glance at the material you linked? The article argues that the nutrition was so poor the kids were dying from lack of food and medical assistance. And the video showed a successful, kind and compassionate individual (the opposite of a violent psychopath) who actually was that Romanian orphan, also the video too never said the nutrition was adequate in those communist orphanages, in fact the video insisted that the nutrition was so inadequate that even the surviving babies were deformed skeletons ...

 

Do you understand that both your sources directly and completely disprove what Stef says, when i was trying to find at least one scientifically sound source PROVING at least one of the two Stef's claims listed above?

 

 

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2 hours ago, Gold said:

Did you even read the question asked?

I was looking for scientific data proving Stef's claims that in Romanian orphanages 1. the nutrition was adequate, 2. violent psychopaths were the result of the babies being fed but otherwise neglected and abandoned. Which part of what you linked proves at least one of the two claims?

Did you even glance at the material you linked? The article argues that the nutrition was so poor the kids were dying from lack of food and medical assistance. And the video showed a successful, kind and compassionate individual (the opposite of a violent psychopath) who actually was that Romanian orphan, also the video too never said the nutrition was adequate in those communist orphanages, in fact the video insisted that the nutrition was so inadequate that even the surviving babies were deformed skeletons ...

 

Do you understand that both your sources directly and completely disprove what Stef says, when i was trying to find at least one scientifically sound source PROVING at least one of the two Stef's claims listed above?

 

 

I read that you were looking for articles about the Romanian orphanages. I had a hard time finding information about these children, and I was under the impression that you did too. I did only merely skim the articles themselves, and it seems like I was mistaken, and that this information is even more difficult to find. But, I thought that the authors and linked sources might have written other works on the orphanages or were cited by other people who might have more what you are looking for, that they might be good leads.

I know it was not quite what you were looking for, but still, I thought that it might help your search.

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Unfortunately, proper answers to questions like that do often require hours to days of patient desk research, following trails of citations from paper to paper, so your experience is not surprising.

Having said that, the answer is likely to be found in material from the Bucharest Early Intervention Project. "When the researchers first visited Romania in the late 1990s, they saw teenagers the size of 8-year-olds, not because of poor nutrition, but because emotional and social deprivation inhibit growth." https://web.archive.org/web/20130309230946/http://www.childrenshospital.org/dream/spring2007/the_long_road_home.html

Children adopted from East European orphanages do have very high levels of emotional disorders http://www.postadoptinfo.org/research/survey_results.php#table_11

The main effect found from the appalling conditions in these orphanages was substantial impairment of IQ. A followup study was planned and it will be interesting to know if the effect persists into adulthood when IQ stabilises.

Something that's not well known to the general public is that there have been quite a few studies (I can supply refs if anyone cares) that have tried to reproduce these results for very low income countries where orphanages are common, but in the extreme conditions found in those countries, the studies were consistently unable to demonstrate benefits of being brought up in a family over being brought up in an institution. This hasn't stopped some authoritarian charities from implementing government-enforced programmes of orphanage closure, putting the welfare of seriously vulnerable children at risk. If you look at the Wikipedia "Orphanage" page, which is maintained by activists, you will see that there's a large number of citations of editorial from these activist charities and almost none of scientific papers, because in the lowest-income countries the science doesn't support what they're doing.

 

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18 hours ago, Gold said:

I was looking for scientific data proving Stef's claims that in Romanian orphanages 1. the nutrition was adequate, 2. violent psychopaths were the result of the babies being fed but otherwise neglected and abandoned. Which part of what you linked proves at least one of the two claims?

There are none.

No studies have been done, nor any studies could have been done under a communist regime that would be critical of the state, nor any studies can be done now because no data was recorded at the time to do the sort of study you're looking for.

What is known for sure from people working there was that they were (a) understaffed, (b) overcrowded with orphans, (c) babies don't thrive when deprived of human touch, and (d) adopted kids from those orphanages exhibited psychopathic behavior as reported by the adoptive parents.

To make an analogy, what you're asking here is for a state-funded study that shows that women are unhappy in Saudi Arabia and they desire equal rights to men.

Just put 2 and 2 together.

  • Upvote 1

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The Bucharest Early Intervention Project was started in 2000 so a lot is known about the effects of institutional care versus family care in post-communist Romania. I've not read the detailed documentation but I'd expect that nutrition would be adequate in a controlled experiment on children. It's a project that was very influential in developing the "first 3 years are crucial" school of thought on parenting and child development, so it's likely to be the ultimate source for some of the ideas that Stefan discusses.

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On 2017-10-29 at 11:49 AM, Wuzzums said:

There are none.

No studies have been done, nor any studies could have been done under a communist regime that would be critical of the state, nor any studies can be done now because no data was recorded at the time to do the sort of study you're looking for.

What is known for sure from people working there was that they were (a) understaffed, (b) overcrowded with orphans, (c) babies don't thrive when deprived of human touch, and (d) adopted kids from those orphanages exhibited psychopathic behavior as reported by the adoptive parents.

To make an analogy, what you're asking here is for a state-funded study that shows that women are unhappy in Saudi Arabia and they desire equal rights to men.

Just put 2 and 2 together.

Yes, it's likely that allot of the children were not nurtured or empathized with because of the lack of resources and incentives invested in the orphanages. The result of those disturbing circumstances on a child would be a dormant or disabled ability to empathize with others and difficulty distinguishing reality from falsehood.

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Something on the side.

In a Spanish city, culturally held up high and to the south...

I'd seen with my own eyes a Romanian woman (recognised the half gipsy words, when spoken to the associates) wondering about on a touristic venue asking for money, holding her(?) child. I was naturally going through in my mind about (Wrecklessness, vs. survival / grab at anything dynamics usually being involved in the life's of many if not all similarly 'down in the dumps' /possibly/ individuals when our tour guide made a comment that I bet not many would be able to forget) circumstantial inner-chatter, until...

I was told that it's (supposedly, by whom are locals, should(?) I take their comments serious... damn.) common for the child to be mildly sedated using opiates, poppy seeds extracts or tea of some sort to instill the desired effect from the tourists... Faaaa&#k! Mindmelt.

It's very difficult for me to think back. Have I sinned? Well, no. I'm not batman, nor was I on a mission... but still. Changing / ruining the world one child at a time. Faaaa*&k!

(this is me weaseling out)

It also happened before I was red-pilled. Perhaps my punishment is to never forget that, definitely won't be the same again, if I am to face the same dilemma. I honestly don't want to test it,though.

There 'ya go. Sigh.

Unease.

Barnsley

 

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46 minutes ago, barn said:

I'd seen with my own eyes a Romanian woman (recognised the half gipsy words, when spoken to the associates) wondering about on a touristic venue asking for money, holding her(?) child

Gypsies aren't romanians, at least not ethnically. Nevertheless, the vast majority of the kids in the romanian orphanages are/were gypsy kids. A gypsy woman holding a baby and begging is as common as sand on a beach. Why? Because people are primed to throw resources at a baby. Furthermore these babies/toddlers you see with beggar gypsies are ridiculously cute and lovable. Why? Because people are more partial to the cute ones and from a lot of 7-8 babies chances are the beggar gypsy will get an above average cute baby. It's a hustle, a despicable one. I didn't know about the poppy seeds tea thing but it makes sense because people shy away from a crying baby.

For further reference here's a quick guide to gypsies: the young ones beg with their mother, the teenagers beg on their own, the adult men steal, the adult women beg and make babies, the old men beg, and the old women beg and read tarot cards.

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True. Not all 5 petalled flowers are roses. At least botanically.

30 minutes ago, Wuzzums said:

Gypsies aren't romanians, at least not ethnically.

 

32 minutes ago, Wuzzums said:

Because people are primed to throw resources at a baby.

True. A crying baby is(without second guessing) indefinitely right. Always, no exception.

34 minutes ago, Wuzzums said:

I didn't know about the poppy seeds tea thing but it makes sense because people shy away from a crying baby.

Me neither and... shouldn't. Cold, maan.

36 minutes ago, Wuzzums said:

For further reference here's a quick guide to gypsies: the young ones beg with their mother, the teenagers beg on their own, the adult men steal, the adult women beg and make babies, the old men beg, and the old women beg and read tarot cards.

Mostly true, Though I did graduate with someone who became to be one of the best GP (I guess, seeing his dedication)

And I have no intention muddying the water between said groups. If it seemed I blurred the lines, let me be clear. Gypsies are Gypsies. Romanians are Romanians.

Sure. (compared to what) Yeah, well there are occurrences of 'Venn diagram style' overlaps but I'm not saying anything more or less than experience data at an individual level. (1 anecdote here, my emotional biases incorporated)

Do you think I've clarified it fairly?

Barnsley

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