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Carmelo

My mum thinks I'm mentally ill

Firstly, I have to say this is very concerning because she is trying to make me take a tonne of pills (anti-depressants/anxiety, sleeping pills etc)  

Whenever I refuse, she will get mad and threaten to force feed me. She admitted she doesn't even know why I am depressed (and she probably doesn't care) but wants to listen to the doctors because "I care and want the best for you". 

So despite wanting the best for me, she accused me of being "sick" or "not normal" whenever she could to get me to take these pills. When I'm staying up, when I'm not socializing with the popular kids at school, when I'm slacking off, when I don't want to do something, when I forget something minor, when I'm clumsy… Somehow she can relate my every small flaw (some of them aren't even flaws) to how I'm not normal and need to take these pills. Anything that she does not classify as "normal" means I'm sick. My mum herself has anger issues, is very abusive, has been abused very badly and is conforming herself to the "norms". In fact, she only forced herself to give birth to me because it was what everyone else was doing. Of course, it's not surprising, that she's Asian and her culture as well as how she was raised really had an impact. I asked her "what do you classify as normal?" and she replied "A healthy happy person who only sees the sunshine and likes to have a dog walk every day and go to the gym and enjoy socializing and is popular. To enjoy studying, and study hard. To get along well with everyone and is subservient and non-questioning. A person who isn't always questioning everything and accepts things for what they are.".

So basically:

1. subservient

2. Popular

3.  Always happy

4. Sleep early and wake early

5. Enjoy social sports (I already do workouts every day)

6. Love the education

7. A mindless sheep

Can somebody please give me suggestions on how to fix her mindset? Or a good argument that can at least stop her from making me take pills?

It is my mother who is making me depressed and I don't want to be force fed drugs. Also, I don't think I'm depressed at all. I feel fine when I'm away from my dysfunctional family. I was diagnosed with depression because of them, and they're not making me feel better. I've stopped going to the therapist after a term of pleading but this hasn't changed my situation at all. She is still accusing me of being sick every day. What can I do about this? Is there any hope in changing my mother's mindset or should I just focus on trying to cope with it? 

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I am guessing you have not told your mother any of this, or how you feel about anything you mentioned; and that should would probably only get more angry if you told her.

But the only way you are likely to get any relief from her is by telling her everything and hope you can come to a better position at least.

I remember seeing children like this when I was in school. Depressed children who had an over-bearing mother that chided them, often in public, to try and get them to be popular etc. And they didn't see for a second that it was their behaviour that had damaged the child. These mothers didn't care for the child's well-being. If they did they wouldn't have created such a supressed child. My thought it their main motives were a combination of sadism and also wanting their child to be popular for status reasons.

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How old are you?

What are your prospects or what is your timeline for achieving independence financially?

 

There's no chance anyone here can say something that will help you "fix her mindset".

 

In your shoes, I might propose some contradiction between studying and being subservient to popular opinion.  Like, you could discuss philosophical ideas which discredit being subservient, non-questioning and accepting things as they are.

 

Like, anti-depressants often have bad side effects of suicidal thoughts.  If you STUDY the effects of the pills and determine they are not safe for you, you can apply one of her principles against her.  Afterall, if you study this issue she should be accepting of your conclusion.  And if not, you can then turn it back on her as a virtue that she once proposed and now is denying.

 

And if she then proposes non-questioning as a virtue, start giving her statements of will.  Like, "I'm not taking the pills."  When she argues, you can state that her own virtue of non-questioning applies and she must not question you otherwise she would be acting un-normal to question you and not accept things as they are. If she gets upset that youre turning her own principles against her, then you can just reply that it's what you've learned from studying philosophy.  Studying is a virtue, thus she cannot question it.

But I would think your answers to the first two questions would factor into how well that plan might work

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On 09/08/2017 at 1:13 AM, aviet said:

I am guessing you have not told your mother any of this, or how you feel about anything you mentioned; and that should would probably only get more angry if you told her.

But the only way you are likely to get any relief from her is by telling her everything and hope you can come to a better position at least.

I remember seeing children like this when I was in school. Depressed children who had an over-bearing mother that chided them, often in public, to try and get them to be popular etc. And they didn't see for a second that it was their behaviour that had damaged the child. These mothers didn't care for the child's well-being. If they did they wouldn't have created such a supressed child. My thought it their main motives were a combination of sadism and also wanting their child to be popular for status reasons.

I have told her and we've been arguing about it for so long. 

 I've always imagined it like Pokemon where the children are more valued if they are successful (usually academically) and are beating the other Pokemon in battle. This way the trainer can brag to the other trainers "Look how great my kids are" or "My son's going to Harvard". At least I get this feeling from an Asian perspective. 

On 09/08/2017 at 8:59 AM, Spenc said:

How old are you?

What are your prospects or what is your timeline for achieving independence financially?

 

There's no chance anyone here can say something that will help you "fix her mindset".

 

In your shoes, I might propose some contradiction between studying and being subservient to popular opinion.  Like, you could discuss philosophical ideas which discredit being subservient, non-questioning and accepting things as they are.

 

Like, anti-depressants often have bad side effects of suicidal thoughts.  If you STUDY the effects of the pills and determine they are not safe for you, you can apply one of her principles against her.  Afterall, if you study this issue she should be accepting of your conclusion.  And if not, you can then turn it back on her as a virtue that she once proposed and now is denying.

 

And if she then proposes non-questioning as a virtue, start giving her statements of will.  Like, "I'm not taking the pills."  When she argues, you can state that her own virtue of non-questioning applies and she must not question you otherwise she would be acting un-normal to question you and not accept things as they are. If she gets upset that youre turning her own principles against her, then you can just reply that it's what you've learned from studying philosophy.  Studying is a virtue, thus she cannot question it.

But I would think your answers to the first two questions would factor into how well that plan might work

I'm not old enough to be free and make important decisions myself yet. If I was, I wouldn't be having all this trouble. Financially, I do not have a job and I'm not thinking about that right now. 

I was asking whether attempting to change my mothers mindset would even be worth it. Some people are too old and conformed to change. 

Please understand that using your tactics such as arguing with reason and logic is not ever going to work because 1. she's probably not going to understand 2. This sort of arguing is considered as complete disrespect to parents and it'll do nothing but get her mad.

Let me explain: She does not think "studying is a virtue". She believes that too much knowledge is damaging because it makes people understand things too clearly (yes, it makes no sense) unless of course if it's school related and anything that will give "worth" into me. In fact, once I tried to tell her about philosophy but without using that word and before even explaining the concept in detail, she got mad and told me that I'm "being indoctrinated by too much knowledge". Her motto? "People should not ever know too much... as that is (morally) wrong"  and "I am always right. Even when I'm wrong, I'm still right."

You can just imagine how hard it is to reason with her. I can only ever argue with simple concepts like "I don't want to take these because google told me it's actually bad" and "that doctor is bad just because". 

So taking all this into account, anything I can do to improve my situation? 

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Florence, I get the strong sense that you understand everything you really need to understand.

From what I can tell, the real problem is your lack of independence, which I am sure is simply because you are young.

It’s quite a difficult situation, because there are really not many options. Just recently there was another thread about dealing with a difficult mother as a young adult. This might be worth a read.

I agree that reasoning does not make sense in this case. I don’t know much about Asian culture, either, but I have some sense of how different it is from western culture when it comes to work ethics and independent thought, etc. I think this is what Spenc didn’t take into account for his post.

It is baffling to me how honest she is about her beliefs that are terrifying and clearly illogical – this is stuff that you would most likely never hear from a western woman. Take it for what it is: The clearest sign there is and ever will be that she is all-in on conformity and would probably rather die than to change in any fundamental way. In my opinion, only this kind of stength of conviction can explain why she would follow beliefs that are so clearly destructive and abusive to her child.

“Conformity only works among adults if it erases what children actually need and is healthy and good for them.” –Stef, FDR2204:68

When it comes to the pills, I have no idea. This is really tough stuff. I have a lot of sympathy for you. I am not sure what could help.

I would probably do anything in order not to be drugged. Like, conforming, since that is really what she wants.

I don’t know. You sound like you have a great relationship with yourself and you wouldn’t ever turn crazy even if you conformed.

What do you think?

 

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How many years before you can escape?

Learn how to pretend to swallow pills.

Start digesting media that will actually educate you on health issues, physical and mental. I recommend Bulletproof Radio and Beyond Wellness Radio.

Learn how to hide things important to you while creating false trails to things unimportant. It sounds like there is nothing to stop your mother's anger and explosions, so learn to direct them.

Start formulating an escape plan that you can put into place the instant you have legal ability to do so. Keep it secret. Look to remove as many dependencies from your mother as possible. When she tries to manipulate you back into dependency, and therefore control, don't let her do it regardless of what emotional twist she uses.

Ask me if you need doing any of this.

You mentioned that your mother has threatened to force feed you pills. First: do you believe she would actually do it? Second: Could you physically prevent her from doing it? Third: Does she have the ability to get someone stronger than her and you to force you to take them?

What would happen if you just flushed all the pills down the toilet, or otherwise destroyed them, and repeated it every time they were refilled? Obviously the reaction would be massive, but would the actual damage be worse than what you're experiencing now, or something you couldn't handle?

The reason I ask is bullies can threaten a lot, but when they see it's too much work to actually follow through, they'll drop it and find something easier to pick on. Obviously this situation is different between she has legal control over you, but it may be worth considering.

 

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13 hours ago, Fred Black Fox said:

Florence, I get the strong sense that you understand everything you really need to understand.

From what I can tell, the real problem is your lack of independence, which I am sure is simply because you are young.

It’s quite a difficult situation, because there are really not many options. Just recently there was another thread about dealing with a difficult mother as a young adult. This might be worth a read.

I agree that reasoning does not make sense in this case. I don’t know much about Asian culture, either, but I have some sense of how different it is from western culture when it comes to work ethics and independent thought, etc. I think this is what Spenc didn’t take into account for his post.

It is baffling to me how honest she is about her beliefs that are terrifying and clearly illogical – this is stuff that you would most likely never hear from a western woman. Take it for what it is: The clearest sign there is and ever will be that she is all-in on conformity and would probably rather die than to change in any fundamental way. In my opinion, only this kind of stength of conviction can explain why she would follow beliefs that are so clearly destructive and abusive to her child.

“Conformity only works among adults if it erases what children actually need and is healthy and good for them.” –Stef, FDR2204:68

When it comes to the pills, I have no idea. This is really tough stuff. I have a lot of sympathy for you. I am not sure what could help.

I would probably do anything in order not to be drugged. Like, conforming, since that is really what she wants.

I don’t know. You sound like you have a great relationship with yourself and you wouldn’t ever turn crazy even if you conformed.

What do you think?

 

5

This is honestly the most satisfying reply I've received on fdr. Sure, you don't fully grasp how dysfunctional Asian parents/culture work but I feel like you've somehow emphasized with me anyway ^^'. 

I am quite aware of everything going on but I never feel like I have enough knowledge. This obviously contrasts to my mother, I'm grateful I can turn out to be like this under her parenting. 

Yep, my mother puts conformity above all else. She used the fact that I was diagnosed with depression to her own advantage. Now she can use pills to force me to make friends and work hard and sleep earlier etc. She went out to buy a crap tonne of medication as soon as the doctor suggested it even though she promised me she won't. (and then got mad when I told her I never wanted them).

But are you suggesting that I do live up to her expectations? (be popular, be super happy, love things that I don't enjoy)? Because that was what I did before and I decided that I was emotionally and mentally torturing myself. I should just be me and do things that I love. Also, I did turn crazy when I conformed. I was dysfunctional and made horrible decisions all the time. 

I wouldn't have to deal with all this... if I had white parents! In fact, any parents will do as long as they're not toxic.

13 hours ago, Dylan Lawrence Moore said:

How many years before you can escape?

Learn how to pretend to swallow pills.

Start digesting media that will actually educate you on health issues, physical and mental. I recommend Bulletproof Radio and Beyond Wellness Radio.

Learn how to hide things important to you while creating false trails to things unimportant. It sounds like there is nothing to stop your mother's anger and explosions, so learn to direct them.

Start formulating an escape plan that you can put into place the instant you have legal ability to do so. Keep it secret. Look to remove as many dependencies from your mother as possible. When she tries to manipulate you back into dependency, and therefore control, don't let her do it regardless of what emotional twist she uses.

Ask me if you need doing any of this.

You mentioned that your mother has threatened to force feed you pills. First: do you believe she would actually do it? Second: Could you physically prevent her from doing it? Third: Does she have the ability to get someone stronger than her and you to force you to take them?

What would happen if you just flushed all the pills down the toilet, or otherwise destroyed them, and repeated it every time they were refilled? Obviously the reaction would be massive, but would the actual damage be worse than what you're experiencing now, or something you couldn't handle?

The reason I ask is bullies can threaten a lot, but when they see it's too much work to actually follow through, they'll drop it and find something easier to pick on. Obviously this situation is different between she has legal control over you, but it may be worth considering.

 

To be completely honest, even when I can escape I'll still be connected to them for quite a while because they can financially support me. With all the high rents and the unstable economy ahead of us, I doubt I'd get away completely. 

Thanks for the radio recommendations, though I think I'm already quite healthy (physically and mentally). As I mentioned, I don't think I'm depressed. In fact, I was diagnosed with depression 2 years ago and times sure have changed however my mum still clings onto the fact that I'm "sick". 

I'm actually not sure if mum would force me pills but she brought them and bugs me 24/7 to take them as well as getting mad that I'm wasting her money. Also, she gets all passive aggressive about it "Yeah, nothings going to make you take those pills that I brought because I cared. You're just so disobedient I've given up on trying because you're just a bad girl." I guess I can just decide to not open my mouth when pills do come, but then I'll be constantly nagged and yelled at until I do. The nagging and yelling is unbearable because it doesn't stop. 

However, my mum does threaten often and not actually follow through it. It's one of her tactics to make me subservient, but sometimes she's serious about it. 

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With all the therapy I've been through and all the books I've read, journaling, and podcasts, there are two very important words you must learn how to use when needed, even if, especially if, that person has power over you...."f**k off". 

You have a crap choice in front of you. You'll never change your mom, but getting free at this point in your life is exceptionally challenging. 

Ask yourself what you are willing to give up for the time being to be free of her. There's no easy way, so find the way that sucks less. 

My mom would do the exact same thing to me. When I was old enough and finally wise and brave enough, I told her to get lost. Until then get really busy with something else. For me it was playing a musical instrument. 

Also, learn how to lie. Lying in self-defense is no vice. 

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7 minutes ago, _LiveFree_ said:

With all the therapy I've been through and all the books I've read, journaling, and podcasts, there are two very important words you must learn how to use when needed, even if, especially if, that person has power over you...."f**k off". 

You have a crap choice in front of you. You'll never change your mom, but getting free at this point in your life is exceptionally challenging. 

Ask yourself what you are willing to give up for the time being to be free of her. There's no easy way, so find the way that sucks less. 

My mom would do the exact same thing to me. When I was old enough and finally wise and brave enough, I told her to get lost. Until then get really busy with something else. For me it was playing a musical instrument. 

Also, learn how to lie. Lying in self-defense is no vice. 

^^' plz understand I have scary Asian parents... Also that I am very dependent on them. Of course, when I'm old enough I'll probably try to slip away from their lives. I can't think of any way to be free of her right now. I can't make money, I can't drive, I can't even go outside my own damn house without my mum's permission. As a young person, I have 0 freedom or responsibility for anything significant. Yes, keeping yourself busy is a really effective way to forget about your captivity. Too bad all I have to busy myself with is studying. 

Hmmm... but I'll take self-defense lying into consideration heheheh considering it's morally ok. 

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3 hours ago, Florence said:

This is honestly the most satisfying reply I've received on fdr. Sure, you don't fully grasp how dysfunctional Asian parents/culture work but I feel like you've somehow emphasized with me anyway ^^'.

Reading this put a big smile on my face! :D

Yeah, I don’t think many people here have an easy time empathizing with an abusive asian upbringing since it’s quite culturally homogenous around here as you are surely aware.

3 hours ago, Florence said:

I am quite aware of everything going on but I never feel like I have enough knowledge. This obviously contrasts to my mother, I'm grateful I can turn out to be like this under her parenting. 

Yep, my mother puts conformity above all else. She used the fact that I was diagnosed with depression to her own advantage. Now she can use pills to force me to make friends and work hard and sleep earlier etc. She went out to buy a crap tonne of medication as soon as the doctor suggested it even though she promised me she won't. (and then got mad when I told her I never wanted them).

But are you suggesting that I do live up to her expectations? (be popular, be super happy, love things that I don't enjoy)? Because that was what I did before and I decided that I was emotionally and mentally torturing myself. I should just be me and do things that I love. Also, I did turn crazy when I conformed. I was dysfunctional and made horrible decisions all the time. 

I wouldn't have to deal with all this... if I had white parents! In fact, any parents will do as long as they're not toxic.

I am also very fascinated by how relatively well you are doing under these circumstances! That is just fantastic. I can tell for sure you will be fine after all :)

I see, you already tried the conformity and it did make you crazy. I was not trying to suggest you do everything she wants you to do, although, to be fair that is what I wrote :P

What I meant is conforming just enough and in a way that maximizes your self-actualization while not being drugged and minmizing the terror... This sounds very intellectual indeed. So maybe that’s not very helpful.

Do you have any meaningful friendships, actually?

Edit: To clarify, by "conforming just enough" I mean manipulate, lie, pretend, stay silent, etc... Stuff that is not pretty but perfectly justified in a state of captivity and aggression. The NAP doesn’t apply here because it has already been violated by your "care"givers!

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On 2017-08-10 at 4:40 AM, Florence said:

 Her motto? "People should not ever know too much... as that is (morally) wrong"  and "I am always right. Even when I'm wrong, I'm still right."

You can just imagine how hard it is to reason with her. I can only ever argue with simple concepts like "I don't want to take these because google told me it's actually bad" and "that doctor is bad just because". 

So taking all this into account, anything I can do to improve my situation? 

How much knowledge should a doctor achieve before he is morally wrong?  Or a nuclear physicist?  Or an engineer who works on a bridge?

 

I might try to question her on her level of personal satisfaction and happiness....She should prove to you that the way she lives her life produces great happiness for her.  Would she acknowledge that that is important or meaningful?  By what standard would she measure satisfaction with her life?  (happiness, wealth, status, health, etc.)  And has she achieved fulfillment in those categories that she considered imporant? 

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10 hours ago, Florence said:

^^' plz understand I have scary Asian parents... Also that I am very dependent on them. Of course, when I'm old enough I'll probably try to slip away from their lives. I can't think of any way to be free of her right now. I can't make money, I can't drive, I can't even go outside my own damn house without my mum's permission. As a young person, I have 0 freedom or responsibility for anything significant. Yes, keeping yourself busy is a really effective way to forget about your captivity. Too bad all I have to busy myself with is studying. 

Hmmm... but I'll take self-defense lying into consideration heheheh considering it's morally ok. 

Why can't you make money? Also, what makes your parents so scary? What country do you live in?

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First off, I'm so sorry you're in that situation.

But she's probably been this way a long time, and your not going to fix her.  Though you might remind her that as  a teenager you need the space and time to figure out who you are and what's normal for you.  If you want to drop a bomb you can say "Of course I'm sad when my need for autonomy isn't met".   Learn to articulate what exactly you expect out of life, perhaps, The will to know the meaning of humanity and the wisdom to keep laughing in spite of it. To make a few good friends that you can count on to be there when you really need them.  NVC (non-violent communication) may be a good thing for you to look up.

On the immediate side of things, since you can't work try to volunteer somewhere two or three days a week. You can sell it to your mother as something that will look good on a college application (and it really will).  It will also look good and a resume and give you professional references should you need to support yourself early.  You'll have time away from your mother and school, where you can immerse yourself in a real and immediately needed task. You'll also be able to connect with adults to get a better sense of the depth and breadth of the world you will soon be tasked to face on your own.  (Also don't quit exercising, as exercise and a good diet does wonders for your energy and happiness)

 

 

 

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On 12/08/2017 at 0:32 AM, Fred Black Fox said:

Reading this put a big smile on my face! :D

Yeah, I don’t think many people here have an easy time empathizing with an abusive asian upbringing since it’s quite culturally homogenous around here as you are surely aware.

I am also very fascinated by how relatively well you are doing under these circumstances! That is just fantastic. I can tell for sure you will be fine after all :)

I see, you already tried the conformity and it did make you crazy. I was not trying to suggest you do everything she wants you to do, although, to be fair that is what I wrote :P

What I meant is conforming just enough and in a way that maximizes your self-actualization while not being drugged and minmizing the terror... This sounds very intellectual indeed. So maybe that’s not very helpful.

Do you have any meaningful friendships, actually?

Edit: To clarify, by "conforming just enough" I mean manipulate, lie, pretend, stay silent, etc... Stuff that is not pretty but perfectly justified in a state of captivity and aggression. The NAP doesn’t apply here because it has already been violated by your "care"givers!

Yeah, a typical SJW will complain how this place is overflowing with white heterosexual men... But I guess it just shows us how few Asian people tend to be rational. 

:^ I'm not actually doing as well as you're thinking. Sometimes I still get ruled by my emotions.

Conforming just enough? I understand the NAP doesn't apply and lying, etc but you know.. I'm scared of my mum. There's no getting away with anything. If I'm not conforming then I'm considered mentally ill. This sort of thing is normal in China too. If one does something the others don't then everybody would avoid them. I'm pretty sure she's thinking what she's doing is normal and for my benefit because she doesn't want me to be socially isolated. 

In terms of friendship, I have 0 close friends ^^' Whenever I establish new friendships the most they lasted was 2 years. Then we'd either drift apart or get into a fight. I have had lots and lots of friends but kept none. I've grown quite desperate and tried to keep friendships for as long as I could even if its self-erasing but now I've just given up. I'm avoiding friendships because they've done nothing but waste my time and damage me internally. I am fine with online friends and people I barely meet. 

16 hours ago, Spenc said:

How much knowledge should a doctor achieve before he is morally wrong?  Or a nuclear physicist?  Or an engineer who works on a bridge?

 

I might try to question her on her level of personal satisfaction and happiness....She should prove to you that the way she lives her life produces great happiness for her.  Would she acknowledge that that is important or meaningful?  By what standard would she measure satisfaction with her life?  (happiness, wealth, status, health, etc.)  And has she achieved fulfillment in those categories that she considered imporant? 

I never said my mother is morally right. She's the one who thinks that.

As I mentioned, she is very passive aggressive and always complaining about her lack of satisfaction and happiness in life. She believes life isn't supposed to be enjoyable and if you don't like that then you can end yourself. And oh, her lack of happiness is all my fault of course. I'm always being accused of making her life miserable and how I'm restricting her freedom and making her life shorter by forcing her to look after me and make food for me and stressing about me. That I'm never grateful for all her sacrifices just to keep me alive and giving birth to me and how she feels like she's in a prison. She also keeps on telling me not to have children because she doesn't want me to end up like her: miserable and being imprisoned by the constant demands of children. 

Has she fulfilled any of those categories? To some degree but not the happiness and health bit. When she didn't accomplish something in her life, she wants me to do it instead. I guess that's a positive sign that she wants the best for me but she's demanding that I excel academically and find a doctor husband whos taller than me and not have children and this and that .... which is all by the way not how I want to live my life. She believes she owns me and that I am her property. What has this got to do with the situation I'm in right now? Or are you trying to know her a bit better? It was a nice rant though.

16 hours ago, _LiveFree_ said:

Why can't you make money? Also, what makes your parents so scary? What country do you live in?

I'm studying at the moment and making money isn't going to make me more independent as I'll need my parents to drive me. Also, earning around 6 dollars an hour isn't going to make me financially dependent. 

My parents are scary because of a million reasons but they all come down to the fact that their toxic and their tiger parenting.

Does the country matter? I'm in a relatively wealthy western country :3 

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12 hours ago, WorBlux said:

First off, I'm so sorry you're in that situation.

But she's probably been this way a long time, and your not going to fix her.  Though you might remind her that as  a teenager you need the space and time to figure out who you are and what's normal for you.  If you want to drop a bomb you can say "Of course I'm sad when my need for autonomy isn't met".   Learn to articulate what exactly you expect out of life, perhaps, The will to know the meaning of humanity and the wisdom to keep laughing in spite of it. To make a few good friends that you can count on to be there when you really need them.  NVC (non-violent communication) may be a good thing for you to look up.

On the immediate side of things, since you can't work try to volunteer somewhere two or three days a week. You can sell it to your mother as something that will look good on a college application (and it really will).  It will also look good and a resume and give you professional references should you need to support yourself early.  You'll have time away from your mother and school, where you can immerse yourself in a real and immediately needed task. You'll also be able to connect with adults to get a better sense of the depth and breadth of the world you will soon be tasked to face on your own.  (Also don't quit exercising, as exercise and a good diet does wonders for your energy and happiness)

 

 

 

Thanks again for emphasizing so much. I'm so surprised by the amount of feedback and support I got from starting this thread. It also gave me a new perspective on how serious this issue actually is. 

Before I am free, I do not actually expect anything out of life. I feel like every day is futile and hopeless as I'm spending all my time studying and otherwise spending time at school, learning about useless things. I have told my mum on multiple occasions on how I felt and she never gave a damn sometimes just replying "I heard you.". She avoids conversations about me in general. In my previous post, it explains how I have no friends. 

I'm going to be honest with you that I'd rather lock myself up in a room and do something productive (gaming, writing, reading etc) than go outside and volunteer at breast cancer foundation or something. Also, I don't have enough time to satisfy my own leisure time anyway let alone volunteering. I'm already keeping myself away from my mother and trying to busy myself with fruitless tasks. 

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6 hours ago, Florence said:

I'm studying at the moment and making money isn't going to make me more independent as I'll need my parents to drive me. Also, earning around 6 dollars an hour isn't going to make me financially dependent. 

My parents are scary because of a million reasons but they all come down to the fact that their toxic and their tiger parenting.

Does the country matter? I'm in a relatively wealthy western country :3 

I said make money. Not flip burgers or whatever at a minimum wage job. Why can't you take the bus to wherever? Your parents are scary because they are scary? 

Yes the country matters, or at least the culture. If you're in a wealthy western culture that's all the info that is needed. 

You have the Internet. You likely have modes of transit other than automobile. You are free to go wherever whenever you want. 

How old are you?

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Okay then.  I asked about the happiness because she's irrational and won't accept rational arguments.  So you need to dig around for some sort of core principle that exists inside her that you can base a rational conversation off of.

Maybe you can just try what Stef used to do, and ask a lot about her childhood and how she felt about the way she was treated, and to empathize with her child self and hope that she can connect to that little girl and empathize herself, and then hopefully empathize with you.

 

I'm reminded of a really interesting podcast i heard recently.  I don't know what evidence supports the claim, but I'll assume that Stef's wife, as a psychologist, has a greater understanding of how this works.  Or at the very least it's an interesting theory:

People will inflict on others the very insults that would hurt themselves most

So, as an example.  If I'm really vain about my appearance.  I might call someone ugly, because to my own mind that is the worst insult.  As a pretentious fool, I might call someone stupid, because for myself to be seen as stupid would harm my self-image the most.  If I'm effeminate, I might call someone a pussy because I am myself so invested in appearing masculine that that insult would harm me most.  If someone farts in a crowd, they point to the person beside them and blame that person.  I'm sure you get the point.....

Your mom is fucking batshit crazy!  She's totally irrational and living an unhappy life, and she's sacrificing all this for nothing at all, except she has this phoney delusion of what's "right" or "normal" to rationalize her craziness.

She does not call you 'un-normal' or 'mentally ill' because you are mentally ill, but because she is projecting onto people who challenge her self-image the true deep judgment that she has of herself but would also harm herself the most if it came to the surface.  She is diagnosing herself, not you. 

 

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7 hours ago, _LiveFree_ said:

I said make money. Not flip burgers or whatever at a minimum wage job. Why can't you take the bus to wherever? Your parents are scary because they are scary? 

Yes the country matters, or at least the culture. If you're in a wealthy western culture that's all the info that is needed. 

You have the Internet. You likely have modes of transit other than automobile. You are free to go wherever whenever you want. 

How old are you?

2

Unfortunately, the only jobs available to me would be the minimum wage. That's still making money, just not worth it. Also, I'm not "free to go wherever whenever" I want. I've already explained that I'm studying at the moment and I barely have time to enjoy myself anyway. 

 

4 hours ago, Spenc said:

Okay then.  I asked about the happiness because she's irrational and won't accept rational arguments.  So you need to dig around for some sort of core principle that exists inside her that you can base a rational conversation off of.

Maybe you can just try what Stef used to do, and ask a lot about her childhood and how she felt about the way she was treated, and to empathize with her child self and hope that she can connect to that little girl and empathize herself, and then hopefully empathize with you.

 

I'm reminded of a really interesting podcast i heard recently.  I don't know what evidence supports the claim, but I'll assume that Stef's wife, as a psychologist, has a greater understanding of how this works.  Or at the very least it's an interesting theory:

People will inflict on others the very insults that would hurt themselves most

So, as an example.  If I'm really vain about my appearance.  I might call someone ugly, because to my own mind that is the worst insult.  As a pretentious fool, I might call someone stupid, because for myself to be seen as stupid would harm my self-image the most.  If I'm effeminate, I might call someone a pussy because I am myself so invested in appearing masculine that that insult would harm me most.  If someone farts in a crowd, they point to the person beside them and blame that person.  I'm sure you get the point.....

Your mom is fucking batshit crazy!  She's totally irrational and living an unhappy life, and she's sacrificing all this for nothing at all, except she has this phoney delusion of what's "right" or "normal" to rationalize her craziness.

She does not call you 'un-normal' or 'mentally ill' because you are mentally ill, but because she is projecting onto people who challenge her self-image the true deep judgment that she has of herself but would also harm herself the most if it came to the surface.  She is diagnosing herself, not you. 

 

2

I did ask her about her childhood and then try to empathize with her. It's no use at all, she just justified her abuse and told me she deserved it. Then went on to explain why she's doing it to me: because its for my own good. I asked her "Doesn't it feel horrible to be abused like that?" and she replied "yeah of course, hahahahah. But you will realize when you grow up that parents do this for their children's own benefit. Then you'll be doing it to your own kids." 

Regarding the theory of people inflicting insults that would hurt them the most. It's perfectly normal for people to do that. After all, when people want to throw insults they want the person to feel the worst. And the insult they consider the worst would be the one that they feel is the worst to them. I hope I'm making sense. 

Phtehhh, never said mom wasn't crazy. When she realized I was really depressed she got mad and told me to jump off the balcony. To this day, I still don't understand how that worked. 

"She does not call you 'un-normal' or 'mentally ill' because you are mentally ill, but because she is projecting onto people who challenge her self-image the true deep judgment that she has of herself but would also harm herself the most if it came to the surface.  She is diagnosing herself, not you." I don't understand this bit but I feel like it's important. Can you elaborate? 

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My deepest sympathy to your predicament.

I've thought a day or so for recommendations for you, and here's what I came up with.

Deal as effectively as you can with the stress you can't remove.

  • Learn stress moderation techniques. Maybe a form of meditation might help you. Perhaps a positive affirmation type of meditation might suit you. There are many such guided meditations to be found on UTube.
  • Be thankful for what you have. Try to think of everything that's positive, even when it doesn't seem like much. At the very least, you've got your intelligent mind, and many people here on FDR that truly care and want to help you. This will help in maintaining a positive mental attitude. You're a prisoner, and many prisoners have used these ideas to help themselves.

Again, I really sympathize with you, and genuinely hope for the best. Let's keep the conversation going.

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On 8/12/2017 at 9:44 AM, Carmelo said:

Thanks again for emphasizing so much. I'm so surprised by the amount of feedback and support I got from starting this thread. It also gave me a new perspective on how serious this issue actually is. 

Before I am free, I do not actually expect anything out of life. I feel like every day is futile and hopeless as I'm spending all my time studying and otherwise spending time at school, learning about useless things. I have told my mum on multiple occasions on how I felt and she never gave a damn sometimes just replying "I heard you.". She avoids conversations about me in general. In my previous post, it explains how I have no friends. 

I'm going to be honest with you that I'd rather lock myself up in a room and do something productive (gaming, writing, reading etc) than go outside and volunteer at breast cancer foundation or something. Also, I don't have enough time to satisfy my own leisure time anyway let alone volunteering. I'm already keeping myself away from my mother and trying to busy myself with fruitless tasks. 

How about the local literacy council to share the joy of reading and writing? Or since you like playing games, an after school program?  Transform your interests into something you can actually put on a resume of college application. You aren't going to be free until you are financially independent. Soft skills, mentors, and references don't pop up overnight, you have to go make them happen. Habits and hard to change and easy to keep. Maybe this isn't quite the right solution for you, but I implore you to find a meaningful path that gets you closer to the challenges and rewards of the age of majority. 

As to your mother's reluctance, just continue to be present and curious.  "How do you feel about what you just heard?", "What's your perspective on it?. You can take a guess "Are you ashamed when I'm sad because you need to be respected as a good mother by others?",  and restate "When you don't respond to what I'm saying, I feel frustrated because I want to connect with you."   When you are doing that whole reading then, touch up on the topic.

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Here's another thought. Does your mom have a respected friend who would be willing to give her books or other material on peaceful parenting? It sounds like it might be a hard pill to swallow if it came from you, but maybe easier if it came from a respected friend.

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On 2017-08-13 at 0:20 AM, Carmelo said:

 

"She does not call you 'un-normal' or 'mentally ill' because you are mentally ill, but because she is projecting onto people who challenge her self-image the true deep judgment that she has of herself but would also harm herself the most if it came to the surface.  She is diagnosing herself, not you." I don't understand this bit but I feel like it's important. Can you elaborate? 

On the surface, she considers herself normal and stable.  Her true self, buried deep under all the nonsense, understands that she's nuts and not normal at all.  The reason she cannot experience her true self judgment of herself is it is obviously horrible and painful to have to admit that about yourself. 

The theory I considered is that your mother is lashing out at you because she knows you will raise your children better and prove that her whole experience as a child and her subsequent choices as an adult were rotten and corrupt.  She's desperate to harm you so that you will feel helpless as she did when she made the horrible choices that she did.  It's going to hurt her deeply when she has to experience you being a good mother.  So of course, if you should choose to de-FOO, she is going to practically lay down a red carpet to show you the way out of her life so that she can avoid that experience.  Just my theory.....

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On 15/08/2017 at 2:11 PM, WorBlux said:

How about the local literacy council to share the joy of reading and writing? Or since you like playing games, an after school program?  Transform your interests into something you can actually put on a resume of college application. You aren't going to be free until you are financially independent. Soft skills, mentors, and references don't pop up overnight, you have to go make them happen. Habits and hard to change and easy to keep. Maybe this isn't quite the right solution for you, but I implore you to find a meaningful path that gets you closer to the challenges and rewards of the age of majority. 

As to your mother's reluctance, just continue to be present and curious.  "How do you feel about what you just heard?", "What's your perspective on it?. You can take a guess "Are you ashamed when I'm sad because you need to be respected as a good mother by others?",  and restate "When you don't respond to what I'm saying, I feel frustrated because I want to connect with you."   When you are doing that whole reading then, touch up on the topic.

I already read and write at home. Working with others just makes me distracted and emotionally exhausted. With the after school program, I'm trying my best to avoid school and the education system ^^' why do you want me to join after school program? There is no after school program anyway. Who's going to drive me home? I don't go to college either. 

Yep, this isn't quite the right solution for me. Getting away from my family is impossible at the moment, it's all about avoiding them at home. Ignoring my family's influence on my life. 

My mother doesn't really answer questions, or she answers them with irrational arguments (which are usually "not an argument"). Such as "I'm always right, so, therefore, you are wrong about x" or "X, Y, and Z parents are way worst than me so you be grateful", "I cannot change because I'm Asian" etc etc.  I have told her (actually nearly every day) how I wish she would have a real and meaningful conversation or we could maybe establish a better connection, she's not interested in a chat with me and I can't remember any conversation we've had that has actually gone well. Not even one. 

10 hours ago, Spenc said:

On the surface, she considers herself normal and stable.  Her true self, buried deep under all the nonsense, understands that she's nuts and not normal at all.  The reason she cannot experience her true self judgment of herself is it is obviously horrible and painful to have to admit that about yourself. 

The theory I posted on the Discord forum when Matias linked to this thread was that your mother is lashing out at you because she knows you will raise your children better and prove that her whole experience as a child and her subsequent choices as an adult were rotten and corrupt.  She's desperate to harm you so that you will feel helpless as she did when she made the horrible choices that she did.  It's going to hurt her deeply when she has to experience you being a good mother.  So of course, if you should choose to de-FOO, she is going to practically lay down a red carpet to show you the way out of her life so that she can avoid that experience.  Just my theory.....

I have to disagree with your theory ^^. You've done a great job predicting a typical western mom though! 

I am certain that she is the opposite of what you've described. She thinks she's always right. When I do nag her and argue/reason with her about her parenting she sometimes just admit to being a bad mother. And I ask her if you know you've been a bad mother why are you not changing yourself? Her answer is she doesn't want to change, she wants to be "bad" in my terms because it makes her happy and she enjoys it. This shows her opinion that she really doesn't believe there's anything wrong with herself. If she did, she would be changing herself without me having to tell her to. She thinks I'm mentally ill so of course, it's natural for her to believe she's all right and virtuous. 

I think if I turned out to be a good parent she won't be jealous or guilty. She'll just think I'm weird not hitting my kids and reasoning with them without an authoritarian rule. 

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Even though there is probably not a true self left anymore in this mother, this does not mean that the theory is false.

She is unhealthy and evil. You are healthy and good. She says you are mentally ill. Therefore, she is projecting her hatred and disgust onto you.

Without that projection I am sure she would have ended her life long ago.

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