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plato85

Arguing with irrationality

114 posts in this topic
On 4/20/2017 at 3:40 PM, DaVinci said:

But how do you know they aren't rational until you argue with them? How do you conclude after one conversation that someone is irrational? 

 

On 4/20/2017 at 10:51 PM, DaVinci said:

That's not a lot of time. What questions would you ask in five minutes that would convince you that they were irrational? 

 

On 4/24/2017 at 4:52 PM, DaVinci said:

We don't need to go over anything. You made a claim that you can judge who is irrational in five minutes with a few questions. You haven't said what those questions are. At this point I'm just trying to figure out why not. Trying to deflect to "Watch Stef's show" isn't cutting it. There doesn't seem to be any good reason why you haven't provided me with a list. It's like me saying "I know five foods that will boost your metabolism" and someone responds "What are they?" and I respond back. "Go to the grocery store. That's where the foods are." Why respond back to a question asking for clarification of info with something that doesn't clarify anything? Are we just playing a chess game now? If so, I'm not interested in that. All I'm interested in is for you to directly answer my original question.

 

On 4/25/2017 at 8:44 PM, DaVinci said:

I'm not the one who made a claim that I can't back up. It would be easy for you to just list the questions, but you didn't. Instead you engaged in a chess game. Hence trying to pull the "not an argument" move. You either can or can't list these questions, and at this point I'm convinced you can't. Therefore I'll take your advice and move on. 

 

On 4/25/2017 at 8:49 PM, _LiveFree_ said:

Honesty. 

 

Now call into the show with this question. 

 

On 5/1/2017 at 2:20 PM, DaVinci said:

The issue isn't as much about arguments as it is about time. Nothing in the universe just is the way it is automatically. In the case of some things it took millions or billions of years to become what it is now. Humans aren't an exception to this. Either in terms of the evolution of our species or the development of a single person. That's why I find this "you're being irrational... I'm done with you" way of dealing with people to not make sense. It's like looking at a jumbled mass of molten rocks floating in space and telling them "Be a planet. Oh, You're not going to do it? No sense spending more time here" That's silly. You can't just will the biology of another human into a shape that bypasses time. 

 

I've argued before that most of the people who have been on this site for a while, and especially pre-Trump, are here because they were already non-conformists. The extreme lefties who did a 180 to anarchy are exceptions. That's why it's difficult to go to a lefty and expect them to just turn around on a dime. Even those who did turn took time to do so. 

 

Think of it like this: If you throw a baby out into the woods, assuming it survives, how long would it take that child to adjust back to current society if found at five, ten, or fifteen years old? It would probably take the fifteen year old longer to adjust than the five year old, right? The same thing is true of that dude walking down the street who thinks taxation is a "social contract" or whatever. You can't say "Taxation is immoral" and expect him to immediately go "Holy crap, I never looked at it like that before. You're totally right dude" 

 

On 5/1/2017 at 9:18 PM, DaVinci said:

This is similar to the idea of the "light bulb moment". That "a-ha I've figured out the solution!" thing. We think it is this random moment of pure clarity, but really it is your brain connecting a bunch of things together that you have been considering over a period of time that then produces the "a-ha!" in a momentary fashion. But you didn't just "holy crap I have the cure to AIDS!" out of nowhere. You were working on it for months, and your brain was processing the information as you considered new things, and sometime even as you slept.

If you were reading an article by a "far right extremist" having grown up in a lefty culture then surely that means that even lefties are capable of considering more than one side. How many righties do you think dismissed you as a leftist wacko when really you were open to ideas other than those in the immediate vicinity? 

I say give people more time. No one just snaps back the other direction in the span of a few words or a few minutes, and if they do then it's probably because they were already putting in the work. 

 

 

On 5/3/2017 at 2:30 PM, DaVinci said:

The problem isn't in your potential solutions, it's in your premise. When you approach someone as irrational, or judge them so after a few minutes of interacting then you change the way you interact with them from that point on. Suddenly they aren't a person, they are a problem to be fixed, or ignored. 

 

Reverse the situation. If a hard core communist walked up to you and said "Be a communist" and you were like "No way" and they proceeded to try to change your mind for thirty minutes or said "Meh, you're irrational" and walked away how would you respond to that? You would probably be just as likely to double down on your current world views or view the communist as a psycho for so easily dismissing you as irrational. 

 

19 hours ago, DaVinci said:

My issue? Don't know what that is supposed to mean. 

As for making judgements, I just don't think you can conclude who someone is in their entirety after just a few moments or a few words. For example, if someone is being manipulative they could tell you what they think you want to hear. So how do you know they are being disingenuous unless you keep probing, and keep probing? That's going to take a while, isn't it? 

There are also people who are capable of change, and who want to, but if you approach them looking to quickly dismiss them then you are approaching them as if they are a problem to be solved and not as a person. A lefty isn't just a set of political views inside a human shaped meat vessel. 

Do I trust my own judgment? Well, what does that mean? Judgement isn't just about negative things, right? I can judge someone as good, but a little misguided couldn't I? What would be the point of dismissing someone I thought was good just because they thought some things I think are irrational? I know several people both on the right and left who believe in God. Should I tell them I can't talk to them anymore because they believe in an invisible omnipotent deity? Is that trusting my judgement? 

 

 

Let me rephrase. Why do you take issue with people using their own judgement in order to maximize the efficient use of their time? And you have this idea that judging someone to be irrational is the same as finding out they hold an irrational belief. A person can be rational and hold an irrational belief through error. When you use reason to expose the error, then you find out if they are capable of being reasonable/rational as they will at the very least begin to consider the alternative you put forth. Some beliefs, like the belief in a god, are so deeply seeded that it would take an inordinate amount of time to expose the error. There is no problem in "knowing" people who hold irrational beliefs. Just don't intertwine your life with them. There are degrees on which you should interact with people. You make love and share your most deepest secrets with your life partner, not your barber. You can hang out and play ping-pong with a friend who goes to church, but you wouldn't want to marry into his family. And you never ever ever want to hang around people because you believe --maybe irrationally!-- that they want to change. This is called "using your judgement". No one else except your closest family is your responsibility. You owe no one anything. The other part of using your judgement is knowing when a member of your closest family holds a fundamental belief that you know is an error. You talk to them, try to get them to see reason, but they constantly and consistently respond to you with irrationalities. "Using your judgement", in this instance, is knowing when you are losing your life to this person's dysfunction, have been victimized by this person because of their beliefs, and can honestly state that the likelyhood of them ever changing is near zero. The cost of staying with this person is not just yourself but all of the other people who would lose out on you because you are sacrificing yourself to this one completely irrational person. 

 

If your response to the question "Do you trust your own judgement?" is "What does that mean?" I would strongly suggest you look into that like yesterday. The correct answer to this question is an honest "F--ckin' A right I do!" 

Trust is always earned through consistent action that does not undermine the well being of an individual. My girlfriend trusts me because over the course of 3 years I have consistently behaved in the following manner toward her: no shouting, no name-calling, no cursing, no violence, no mind-games, no manipulation, always answer her questions honestly, acknowledge when I screw up then apologize and right the wrong, being considerate towards her needs, always asking how she is doing/does she need anything/tell me about your day, listening intently, being patient and honest and direct and calm when she is acting irrationally, being angry without being hurtful when she has wronged me. And on and on and on. She knows damn well that at my deepest level I have her health and happiness set as a priority. The actions show this and over time have allowed her a foundation to build a mountain of trust on. 

If you don't trust your own judgement, then you haven't been acting in your own best interest. In some way, you are betraying yourself so that someone else in your life can mistreat you. And this is at the very core of what Freedomain Radio is all about. 

 

 

You should think very hard about what you're doing here.

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1 hour ago, _LiveFree_ said:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Let me rephrase. Why do you take issue with people using their own judgement in order to maximize the efficient use of their time? And you have this idea that judging someone to be irrational is the same as finding out they hold an irrational belief. A person can be rational and hold an irrational belief through error. When you use reason to expose the error, then you find out if they are capable of being reasonable/rational as they will at the very least begin to consider the alternative you put forth. Some beliefs, like the belief in a god, are so deeply seeded that it would take an inordinate amount of time to expose the error. There is no problem in "knowing" people who hold irrational beliefs. Just don't intertwine your life with them. There are degrees on which you should interact with people. You make love and share your most deepest secrets with your life partner, not your barber. You can hang out and play ping-pong with a friend who goes to church, but you wouldn't want to marry into his family. And you never ever ever want to hang around people because you believe --maybe irrationally!-- that they want to change. This is called "using your judgement". No one else except your closest family is your responsibility. You owe no one anything. The other part of using your judgement is knowing when a member of your closest family holds a fundamental belief that you know is an error. You talk to them, try to get them to see reason, but they constantly and consistently respond to you with irrationalities. "Using your judgement", in this instance, is knowing when you are losing your life to this person's dysfunction, have been victimized by this person because of their beliefs, and can honestly state that the likelyhood of them ever changing is near zero. The cost of staying with this person is not just yourself but all of the other people who would lose out on you because you are sacrificing yourself to this one completely irrational person. 

 

If your response to the question "Do you trust your own judgement?" is "What does that mean?" I would strongly suggest you look into that like yesterday. The correct answer to this question is an honest "F--ckin' A right I do!" 

Trust is always earned through consistent action that does not undermine the well being of an individual. My girlfriend trusts me because over the course of 3 years I have consistently behaved in the following manner toward her: no shouting, no name-calling, no cursing, no violence, no mind-games, no manipulation, always answer her questions honestly, acknowledge when I screw up then apologize and right the wrong, being considerate towards her needs, always asking how she is doing/does she need anything/tell me about your day, listening intently, being patient and honest and direct and calm when she is acting irrationally, being angry without being hurtful when she has wronged me. And on and on and on. She knows damn well that at my deepest level I have her health and happiness set as a priority. The actions show this and over time have allowed her a foundation to build a mountain of trust on. 

If you don't trust your own judgement, then you haven't been acting in your own best interest. In some way, you are betraying yourself so that someone else in your life can mistreat you. And this is at the very core of what Freedomain Radio is all about. 

 

 

You should think very hard about what you're doing here.

You proved my point. 

"She knows damn well that at my deepest level I have her health and happiness set as a priority. The actions show this and over time have allowed her a foundation to build a mountain of trust on."

It took time to build the relationship. You didn't dismiss her after five minutes. Your problem with me is a problem you have with yourself. You have two conflicting views, hence trying to suggest that I need to think harder about why I'm here. 

 

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3 minutes ago, DaVinci said:

You proved my point. 

"She knows damn well that at my deepest level I have her health and happiness set as a priority. The actions show this and over time have allowed her a foundation to build a mountain of trust on."

It took time to build the relationship. You didn't dismiss her after five minutes. Your problem with me is a problem you have with yourself. You have two conflicting views, hence trying to suggest that I need to think harder about why I'm here. 

 

How the hell are you not getting this? I didn't dismiss her after five minutes because she was rational and capable of challenging her beliefs. I knew very quickly that she was very capable of being rational. That judgement comes waaaaaaaaaaaayy before an intimate relationship. What you just said here was that you need an intimate relationship with someone before you know if they are irrational or not. 

Do you see that that is what you said?

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20 minutes ago, _LiveFree_ said:

How the hell are you not getting this? I didn't dismiss her after five minutes because she was rational and capable of challenging her beliefs. I knew very quickly that she was very capable of being rational. That judgement comes waaaaaaaaaaaayy before an intimate relationship. What you just said here was that you need an intimate relationship with someone before you know if they are irrational or not. 

Do you see that that is what you said?

You said:

 "being patient and honest and direct and calm when she is acting irrationally,"

Did you just discover this deep into the relationship that she acts irrationally sometimes? I don't think so. You knew from the start didn't you? If the answer is no then how good could your judgement have been? If the answer is yes then why did you let someone you know acts irrationally into your life? What are you getting out of it? 

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1 hour ago, DaVinci said:

You said:

 "being patient and honest and direct and calm when she is acting irrationally,"

Did you just discover this deep into the relationship that she acts irrationally sometimes? I don't think so. You knew from the start didn't you? If the answer is no then how good could your judgement have been? If the answer is yes then why did you let someone you know acts irrationally into your life? What are you getting out of it? 

What the hell? Are you serious with this junk?

Everyone has their moments. I never said they didn't. What I said was that from the very beginning she demonstrated the capacity to move to rationality when confronted with reason. Of course I knew from the start that sometimes she'll be irrational. Just as she knew sometimes I would be too. We weren't looking for perfection. We were looking for capacity to reason. I have to keep reiterating this point with you. Why? 

With anyone who is acting irrationally, you approach with reason, patience, and calmness. Then you see what you get in return. In my girlfriends case, I get reason, patience, and calmness back. In other cases, like with you, I get defensiveness, contradictions, lack of comprehension, and shifting definitions. This results in my patience running thin, meaning I'm experiencing frustration. And my judgment informs me that, because you are unwilling to acknowledge that my answer to your initial question to me in this thread was "Honesty", you're likely going to defend your position no matter what; irrationally. Which makes this a waste of my time. 

I'd love, LOVE, for you to prove me wrong. If I'm wrong, then I've made a serious error and will now have an opportunity to grow. If I'm right, then A: I leave this convo behind saving me time and energy, or B: continue on wasting my life with you. 

It comes down to judgement, and I trust mine because I've spent the time and energy earning it.

(iPhone post. Sorry for grammar if it's bad)

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1 hour ago, _LiveFree_ said:

What the hell? Are you serious with this junk?

Everyone has their moments. I never said they didn't. What I said was that from the very beginning she demonstrated the capacity to move to rationality when confronted with reason. Of course I knew from the start that sometimes she'll be irrational. Just as she knew sometimes I would be too. We weren't looking for perfection. We were looking for capacity to reason. I have to keep reiterating this point with you. Why? 

With anyone who is acting irrationally, you approach with reason, patience, and calmness. Then you see what you get in return. In my girlfriends case, I get reason, patience, and calmness back. In other cases, like with you, I get defensiveness, contradictions, lack of comprehension, and shifting definitions. This results in my patience running thin, meaning I'm experiencing frustration. And my judgment informs me that, because you are unwilling to acknowledge that my answer to your initial question to me in this thread was "Honesty", you're likely going to defend your position no matter what; irrationally. Which makes this a waste of my time. 

I'd love, LOVE, for you to prove me wrong. If I'm wrong, then I've made a serious error and will now have an opportunity to grow. If I'm right, then A: I leave this convo behind saving me time and energy, or B: continue on wasting my life with you. 

It comes down to judgement, and I trust mine because I've spent the time and energy earning it.

(iPhone post. Sorry for grammar if it's bad)

You say that you are looking for the capacity to reason, but we are right back to my point and you're proving it for me. It takes time. Hence why you brought up patience, and calmness. Those things create a relaxed environment. At the same time this flies in the face of what you were claiming earlier that you can figure someone out quickly with a few questions which you wouldn't even divulge.  

There is a contradiction in what you are telling others you do and what you actually do. You've let someone in your life you know is capable of irrationality, and has displayed it to you recently. What I want to know is what are you getting out of this relationship that makes you overlook the irrational behavior where as with anyone else you would have dismissed them for the same behavior? 

 

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This is my last attempt. 

No it does not take a lot of time. It didn't take a lot time with her. Which is what I said. Go back and read my post again. 

It did not take hardly any time at all for me to know that she could reason. Patience and calmness do not denote a large amount of time. It just means I give her the benefit of the doubt in that small moment. She has never made me regret that. Her moments of irrationality last a few minutes at most. 

You on the other hand just flat out lied and manipulated. I NEVER ONCE said it was just a few specific questions. That was all you. Go back and read the thread, you'll see. You created the straw man and are trying to knock me down with it. That's pretty sick. Thanks for putting it on display for everyone. 

I'm done. 

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55 minutes ago, _LiveFree_ said:

This is my last attempt. 

No it does not take a lot of time. It didn't take a lot time with her. Which is what I said. Go back and read my post again. 

It did not take hardly any time at all for me to know that she could reason. Patience and calmness do not denote a large amount of time. It just means I give her the benefit of the doubt in that small moment. She has never made me regret that. Her moments of irrationality last a few minutes at most. 

You on the other hand just flat out lied and manipulated. I NEVER ONCE said it was just a few specific questions. That was all you. Go back and read the thread, you'll see. You created the straw man and are trying to knock me down with it. That's pretty sick. Thanks for putting it on display for everyone. 

I'm done. 

Yeah, I asked you what questions you would ask someone to figure them out. What else would you do to understand another person you meet if not ask them questions? How do you engage another human being and judge them as irrational if you aren't asking them questions? Stare at them? How much info could they just be divulging to you without prompting in say five minutes time to where you know who they are? All you replied with was "watch the show" which wasn't an answer to my question. You never said how you would do it, but you did say you could, but you never backed that up. Am I to assume you have some direct brain scan abilities, or is it reasonable to think that you would use a series of questions to gauge another person? I mean, please tell me how you would meet someone, interact with them in a few minutes and conclude that they are irrational without asking questions. Are you looking at their appearance? Their skin color? Their laptop? Their car? I might be assuming you use questions, but you never actually divulged your methods, so I don't think assuming you use questions to figure people out is odd. If it isn't questions than correct me by divulging your actual method rather than saying I'm making a straw man. I think it's weird that you are just now calling it a strawman after 4 pages of not telling me your methods. Are we just playing a chess game? Are you trying to checkmate me? 

The entire idea of patience is that you are tolerating the amount of time something is taking. You described approaching irrationality with patience. You understand it takes time. Is that the same thing as giving someone "the benefit of the doubt"? That sounds more like you are handwaving away any current concerns you have in the now. How does this fit with your earlier stance that you can figure people out quickly. You said "Most people you'll know after the first 5 minutes." That doesn't sound patient to me. Five minutes? That isn't very long in the lifespan of a human much less the planet, or the universe or existence. 

So what's the difference? Why is one person in and out in five minutes for their irrationality and another person gets in? You mentioned the capacity for reason. Doesn't everyone have the capacity for reason? Are we talking about people who have had the part of their brain that deals with reason damaged in some way? How do you know who has brain damage to their reasoning center? 

 

 

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When you run into contrary opinions, narratives, or experiences, be curious. When your curiosity is satisfied or there are no more arguments to be evaluated there's no need to continue.

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