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Cryptolized

Pro Life and Pro Choice: Murder or Not Murder?

What are your thoughts on the following:

It is wrong to bring a child to this world if at least one of the parents don't want the child.

A mother can choose to birth a child regardless of what the father thinks.
A mother can choose to abort a child regardless of what the father thinks.
A father is therefore incapacitated in this extremely important situation.

If a mother removes a child, it's called an abortion.
If a father "removes" a child, it's called a murder.

No one has the right – except in self-defence – to attack another human being. A human being who uses violence which results in the death of an unborn child, should be punished for the violence inflicted upon the mother; not for "murder" of the unborn child, as long as the mother can abort the child which in practice is the same as murder in the father's situation.

There is just one way of doing this:
– Mother and father want to keep = the child is kept
– Mother and father want to remove = the child is removed
– Mother wants to keep, father wants to remove = the child is removed
– Mother wants to remove, father wants to keep = the child is removed
– Mother wants to remove, father is unknown/dead = mother decides, as long as the father's family can't be held economically, or in other ways, responsible for the child against their will.

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I don't think it should be considered murder until around 20-24 weeks, which sets a standard for both fetal viability outside the womb, and the development of the neural basis for consciousness. After that point it is a conscious human being and regular law ought to apply -- do not kill unless in self-defense (life and health of the mother at stake).

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7 hours ago, Cryptolized said:

What are your thoughts on the following:

It is wrong to bring a child to this world if at least one of the parents don't want the child.

Let's start with definitions.

Definition of Parent (merriam-webster):

  • 1a :  one that begets or brings forth offspring just became parents of twins
  • b :  a person who brings up and cares for another foster parents

Definition of Beget (merriam-webster):

  • 1 :  to procreate as the father :  sire He died without begetting an heir.

Definition of Child (merriam-webster):

  • 1a :  an unborn or recently born person
  • 2a :  a young person especially between infancy and youth a play for both children and adults
  • 4a :  a son or daughter of human parents Do you have any children?

 

Outside of the above definitions, one needs to examine the context of how a person became a parent.

For example, was it voluntary, did both people possess the knowledge of how procreation works?  If so, how was this determined?

Was the people conscious?

Definition of Conscious (merriam-webster):

  • 1 :  perceiving, apprehending, or noticing with a degree of controlled thought or observation conscious of having succeeded was conscious that someone was watching

  • 4 :  capable of or marked by thought, will, design, or perception

  • 6 :  having mental faculties not dulled by sleep, faintness, or stupor :  awake became conscious after the anesthesia wore off

Edited by D.D.
Missing link.
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Hi, Cryptolized!

I see this is your first post ever on FDR. Could you explain your position and why you chose to start with this?

Could you also answer the following: Is killing always murder? Why or why not?
In watching many debates on abortion, I have noticed that in the end the disagreement does not come down to personhood, but to the morality of murder.

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Do you mean my position on this subject? I'm watching most of Stefan's videos, but I still feel like a noob :), so excuse any "NotAnArgument" I make or if I contradict myself. The reason I asked about this here is because I guess this forum is the best place to get good answers. There is no particular reason why I chose to start with this.

I'm not a native English speaker, and I'm not versed in all the different legal definitions of ending a life. Do you mean if I distinguish between, say, homicide, manslaughter, first/second degree murder? I don't know the difference between them, so in this context (if possible) I'm talking about one human ending another human's life.

I don't think that the legal definition of "ending a life" should apply at conception. I think it should vary depending on the situation. I don't know what the "default" position of a pro-lifer is on ending a baby's life to save the mother, but I believe the mother is worth more than the baby. I also believe that an unwanted child should not be born, so it shouldn't matter at which time the pregnancy is discovered; an abortion is a solution.

My main concern is that no matter at which week any nation draws the line, there can't be a difference in the punishment for ending a life between "a kick in the stomach" and an abortion.

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Abortion is murder.

mur·der
noun
  1. 1.
    the unlawful premeditated killing of one human being by another.


You can see the biology of the human development cycle here. 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_development_(biology)

Princeton has done a paper on when human beings begin for an easier read.
https://www.princeton.edu/~prolife/articles/wdhbb.html

I am not completely sure what your point is. However, the only way a father can "remove a child" from an unwilling mother is through assaulting the mother, whereas the mother can "remove a child" without assaulting the father. That may have been the point, not sure tho.


 

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The father/person who assaults the mother must be punished for the assault, but not for killing the baby if the mother can abort (kill) the baby and not be punished for it.

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