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Jsbrads

How to Teach Your Children to Lie

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3 hours ago, Jsbrads said:

So what you are saying is that speaking diplomatically is okay...

but you understand that lying to a friend, besides the negative repercussions to yourself, is also pretty bad? Even if they are an adult. 

Yes, I do.

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10 hours ago, Jsbrads said:

Why? Can't they just defend themselves?

I never said adults couldn't be hurt by lies. That was Drew Davis, not me.

I believe lies can hurt adults, even if they can defend themselves. Examples include slander/libel and being lured into a scam. True, they can take action to clear their name or try to get their money back, but those procedures are complete headaches. I should know because I've been hurt by lies from people I trusted, like being tricked into scams and the time when I needed help from my mother, whom I was estranged from for a while, turned me into her personal indentured servant even though she claimed to love me for who I am. I was able to get away eventually, and now I know that I can never trust her no matter how much she hoovers.

Also, consider adults who can't defend themselves like many elderly people and those with special needs. Their physical/mental vulnerability makes them easy prey for those who want to take advantage of them. 

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3 hours ago, S1988 said:

I never said adults couldn't be hurt by lies. That was Drew Davis, not me.

I believe lies can hurt adults, even if they can defend themselves. Examples include slander/libel and being lured into a scam. True, they can take action to clear their name or try to get their money back, but those procedures are complete headaches. I should know because I've been hurt by lies from people I trusted, like being tricked into scams and the time when I needed help from my mother, whom I was estranged from for a while, turned me into her personal indentured servant even though she claimed to love me for who I am. I was able to get away eventually, and now I know that I can never trust her no matter how much she hoovers.

Also, consider adults who can't defend themselves like many elderly people and those with special needs. Their physical/mental vulnerability makes them easy prey for those who want to take advantage of them. 

In other words, even if one can defend themselves, it doesn't mean it's okay to hurt them to begin with.

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4 hours ago, S1988 said:

I never said adults couldn't be hurt by lies. That was Drew Davis, not me.

I said that lying to adults is not abusing them, as in, it is not the same thing and does not have the same effect as it does with children. Lying to adults can be harmful, for sure. I could have explained that better and be more aware of the language that I was using. That, abuse creates trauma creates dysfunction. That does not typically happen with adults.

 

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1 hour ago, Drew Davis said:

I said that lying to adults is not abusing them, as in, it is not the same thing and does not have the same effect as it does with children. Lying to adults can be harmful, for sure. I could have explained that better and be more aware of the language that I was using. That, abuse creates trauma creates dysfunction. That does not typically happen with adults.

 

I think I see what you mean. Thanks for clarifying.

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On 10/1/2017 at 3:26 AM, Jsbrads said:

So what you are saying is that speaking diplomatically is okay...

but you understand that lying to a friend, besides the negative repercussions to yourself, is also pretty bad? Even if they are an adult. 

That is what I was saying about the aesthetics. It is not evil/immoral to lie, but it is shitty/ugly/mean/unworthy etc. Aesthetics are values that are universally preferable, but you cannot use violence to induce good behavior. You can use violence to prevent rape, but you cannot punch someone if they lie to you.

With the mention of libel and slander, there are different types of lies, for sure. With those, I am definitely open to hearing the arguments, because those are absolutely harmful lies.

Personally, I try to allow some fibbing in my relationships. If someone lies to me to protect their boundaries, I might be upset about being lied to, but I can understand that they want to protect themselves. In the grand scheme of things, lying about "doing nothing" versus "I ate four sleeves of oreo cookies last night" does not significantly negatively impact me.

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8 hours ago, Jsbrads said:

So if an adult lies about a school teacher and tells people the teacher is a pedophile, that conforms within the limits of NAP?

I think that would be like lying about a rape. The person will be arrested, which would be kidnapping if they are innocent, which would violate the NAP.

Other slander/libel "This guy is a bad teacher/She makes an inferior product/This dog is the worst lawyer ever..." I'm not sure how the NAP would apply. I feel like there should be some kind of recourse/self-protection there. I do know that if it has been agreed to, such as in a contract, then enforcing the contract would not violate the NAP, provided that it was signed with informed consent.

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What if the police don't think there is evidence to jail the teacher? The teacher just loses his job and can't sell his home or support himself?

would that be okay then?

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It would not be "okay" but I don't think it would violate the non-aggression principle. I could be totally wrong about that, though. I'm definitely not an expert on applying it to analyze every minutiae of a situation. The more specific the example, the harder it can be to apply a principle. Like, in the physics of flight, we know about mass, gravity, drag, etc. but clearly labeling everything since velocity and acceleration are in constant flux is an arduous task. At this point, I don't have a lot of interest exploring further about what would be a violation of the NAP and what would not in terms of lying and its effects.

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