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Mishi2

Most exciting War of Cultures

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The clash of cultures is one of my favourite topics to discuss. It is an eternal war, a sort of natural selection on the most macro level. The best part about it is that there is a lot of room for speculation and theory, but in the end the outcome is always surprising.

 

The West, as most commonly agreed upon, is the sum of Judaism, Greece+, Rome+, and Christendom.

The East, as we know it, is ​Buddhism+, Hinduism, Persia+, Egypt+, Japan, China+, and Islam

(+) means dead

 

The greatest contending cultures of current times are:

  • Christianity: Includes Catholic, Protestant and Orthodox
  • ​Islam: ​Includes Shia and Sunni
  • ​Hinduism: ​One big clustertruck. Not going into details.
  • Secularism: Includes ​Socialism, French-style Secularism, Asian Pragmatism
  • Buddhism: ​Already lost the war in my opinion, so not to be discussed.
  • Judaism: ​Harder to kill than a bag of cockroaches. Probably going to outlive everyone on the list. Seriously... How on earth did Israel win 16 wars in 70 years?
So which culture is going to prevail in the end, and why? And which country will take its culture to its full glory?

If you think another ideology is going to prevail, please make a detailed case. I would love to learn more.

 

My opinion:

I think protestantism is doomed to fail, as most countries that went that way turned out secular. Example: Northern Europe

Orthodox christianity should eventually reunite with the Church, as demonstrated by the Copts, Assyrians, Greek Catholics...

The Catholic Church has already proven resiliance by surviving the Roman Empire, and by rebuilding the West. Here to stay.

Islam has been winning the war since its inception, and it is here to stay.

Secularism ​has yet to take shape, since it is still too young of a culture. So far, not doing well, as demonstrated by the Soviet Union, China, Japan, France, Northern Europe.

 

Who will win the War?

For a while it puzzled me why Islam has been winning over Christendom lately. After all, the West is best, right? As I always do, I did some research in history to see what patterns show up.

 

How could a no-name village in Latium build the greatest empire of the Ancient World? Then how could a bunch of illiterate barbaric animals beat that same empire at its height?

Also, how could a beggar boy and his playmates from the middle of the steppes of build the largest empire the World had ever seen? Then how could the death of a drunk dude mean the end of that same empire?

What was it that the Romans and the Mongols lost that they used to have beforehand? It was certainly not land, not technology, not manpower, not money, not natural resources, nor anything that would normally amount to something in the field of geopolitics.

 

I think it was willpower. Math and theory cannot explain how the Romans breached the walls of Messada, nor how the Mongols breached the impenetrable wall of China.

But where does this power of will come from? And who will be the one to have the will to dominate the World?

 

What I am really curious about is: where does Islam draw its willpower from? They have no tech, no money, no overwhelming resources, nor a numerical advantage, heck they don't even have water. So how the hell are they winning? I think it is high time we learned about the winning side.

Edited by Mishi2
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I think what we will see is the rise of a new culture that is not centered around a religion, nor in direct opposition to it. Humanity is about 35 weeks pregnant with a baby called Freedom.

 

 

Birth is a dangerous bloody thing. 

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The clash of cultures is one of my favourite topics to discuss. It is an eternal war, a sort of natural selection on the most macro level. The best part about it is that there is a lot of room for speculation and theory, but in the end the outcome is always surprising.

 

 

 

Let the both exiting and terrifying games begin...

 

 

The West, as most commonly agreed upon, is the sum of Judaism, Greece+, Rome+, and Christendom.

 

 

 

Although famous Jews certainly came up with some pretty powerful ideas (ranging from genocidal Socialism to life-saving Austrian Capitalism) I don't think they're worth counting as a Western/European/Occidental culture, even if they're basically Whites in the closet. The reason simply being they lived/live in enclaves disconnected from their host nations.

 

The East, as we know it, is ​Buddhism+, Hinduism, Persia+, Egypt+, Japan, China+, and Islam

(+) means dead

 

 

 

Chinese is not dead. Modern China is basically pre-modern China Part 2. Persian and Egyptian can't be called dead either unless you're willing to say Christianity is dead, since although Islam has pretty much dominated the region the local cultures still exist albeit subservient. 

 

 

 

The greatest contending cultures of current times are:

  • Christianity: Includes Catholic, Protestant and Orthodox
  • ​Islam: ​Includes Shia and Sunni
  • ​Hinduism: ​One big clustertruck. Not going into details.
  • Secularism: Includes ​Socialism. French-style Secularism, Asian Pragmatism
  • Buddhism: ​Already lost the war in my opinion, so not to be discussed.
  • Judaism: ​Harder to kill than a bag of cockroaches. Probably going to outlive everyone on the list.

 

I'd also add authoritarianism versus libertarianism (or statism versus anarchism) since authoritarian secularists and deep-state byzantine networks are waging war against both traditional monarchism (which I'm betting will make a come back) and republicanism (which is most visible in America).

 

If I had to place my bets on the horse race, I'd bet along the following lines...

 

Christianity will undoubtedly experience a revolution; either they will be crushed by Statism and Islam, displaced by Eastern Catholicism (presuming the Eastern Europeans rescue we Westies just like the bad ole' days when the Mongolians and Turks were ravaging us), or with a vivified and dominant Western Catholic Church. 

 

Either way I can guarantee there will be no moderates in a future world of radicals. 

 

Islam will most likely over-extend themselves in their conquest of Europe. I expect a Second Holocaust to occur but with Islam as the target with the potentiality of a Tenth Crusade to completely exterminate them. Most likely history will repeat itself and Islam will survive, although greatly diminished in strength and broken back down to its Sick Man of Europe status.

 

Hinduism. I pretty much expect they'll be a non-issue, just fucking their way into overpopulation and possibly trying to pry their way into Western countries as immigrants. Most likely Indians in the West will also be victimized by the inevitable holocaust as I doubt anything non-White will live in the future war-ravaged Europe after 2100.

 

Secular Ideologies: So long as China carries Communism in name, Socialism will exist in some form or another. However while I expect modern Leftists to plague us I expect our war with them to end with swords rather than words. In such an event we'll most likely win but I doubt we'll have a libertarian union in the West. Most likely we'll see a return to fascism with the possibility of monarchism arising out of the dominant new dictatorships that declared themselves to save the West. 

 

I expect America to be a potential country for such a radical transformation, as the public becomes increasingly jaded and cynical of republicanism and harbors increasingly radical desires for change without much visible action.

 

Buddhism: Not really a fighting power. I'm sure they'll exist as an alternative/traditional philosophy for the Far East but not as an organized force to be reckoned with (unless the Far East were to have a similar revolution to the West happening in their future, which I doubt since their lives and cultures are not in existential danger like ours').

 

Judaism: So long as they bet on the right horses they'll continue to thrive. Bet wrongly and they'll most likely be crippled and persecuted by the victors. I imagine Israel is in for a bloody war for existence once America goes through its revolution. 

 

All this being said while I think something like this will happen I don't believe everything I've prescribed will happen. Even so, I'm curios as to what you all think.

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I think it is a complex topic. I have to say though that I agree with the information found in BioHistory by Jim Penman. Stefan had a good interview with him on one of his shows and that is in fact where I determined I would read the book. His take on the subject is quite comprehensive and in line with the K & R theory that Stefan prescribes to along with epigenetics theories. The culture that will prevail has a lot to do with the level of intelligence in the society along with the prosperity that the current society has achieved along with weather it has ever been a defeated society. 

 

In his book it is not so much that religion dictates the culture but more that the religions foster certain behaviors that influence how the people as an aggregate orientate towards the K and R spectrum in the book he has a few more parameters C, V, and S. The religions that favor the K tend to elevate our societies, and the religions that favor the R tend to plunge our societies. The fact that prosperity always leads to a fall in the cycle of empires, means that the west would have to dip. He does state though that the general trend in history has been a steady incline in intelligence and prosperity. 

 

I do not think any one of those options you presented will be a clear cut winner. They will all have their day in the sun and it will cycle back through. Then over time some will either meta-morph into something new, or will fade to obscurity as something new takes it place, while we continue our climb up the ladder of progress. This should not detract from the fact that we will go through peeks and valleys, and right now we are heading to a valley in the west. 

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I think protestantism is doomed to fail, as most countries that went that way turned out secular. Example: Northern Europe

 

The head of the Commonwealth is the head of the biggest branch of the Protestant faith, it shows it has the most potential to survive by adapting to the changing world around it.

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^In this context of this discussion, "breaking the wheel" would be a stand-in for Freedom. ;)

 

I am curious as to why you suppose monarchy will come back though...

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The head of the Commonwealth is the head of the biggest branch of the Protestant faith, it shows it has the most potential to survive by adapting to the changing world around it.

There are currently 16 nations in the Commonwealth. The biggest are UK, Australia, Canada, New Zealand.. The rest are tiny islands.

The ratio of Anglicans vs Catholics in each are: 20:9, 17:25, 29:39, 12:13. (numbers rounded up)  Source: World Factbook

 

As you see, none of these countries, except UK, have an Anglican majority, but rather a Catholic majority. Whatever the anglicans are doing, they are doing it wrong. Or at least the Catholics are doing it better.

 

My apologies, Iron Horse!

 

Your argument is not lazy, rather just completely irrelevant to the discussion.

My statement was that protestantism was doomed to fail.

Then you said it will not, because Anglicanism is going to be around in one form or another, because the Queen is the Head...?.

Now I say that there is no proof to your claim, and I show you numbers that suggest that in countries that were supposed to be 100% Anglican (since the British founded them) Anglicans are decreasing drastically, even in comparison to Catholics. If this trend continues, there will be literally no Anglicanism in 400 years. UK itself used to be 88% Anglican in 1800, now at 20%. They have been losing a percentage point every 20 years. http://www.brin.ac.uk/2012/eighteenth-century-religious-statistics/

Similar trend applies to Australia and Canada: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christianity_in_Australia, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Canada

 

This thread is about the war of cultures. A few million Anglicans are not a considerable fighting force.

Edited by Mishi2

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You did not address my argument, the head of the commonwealth, HRH Queen Liz II, holds power over the largest Protestant flock in the world.  It is because of this that whatever happens they will continue to be around in some form.  I did not, nor do I, contest the size of their devoted.  It has since it's inception shown itself to break with religious canon when they no longer become popular or applicable and will continue to do so to stay relevant throughout the foreseeable future.

 

Your argument is a lazy strawman, 

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^In this context of this discussion, "breaking the wheel" would be a stand-in for Freedom. ;)

 

I am curious as to why you suppose monarchy will come back though...

 I assume this response was directed partially to me since I'm the only one who thinks monarchism is liable to have a return...

 

I mainly make this assumption based on the decreasing faith in republicanism and the increasing cynicism in political action. Even if Donald Trump does exactly what he says he'll do and then some, half the voting populace will still see him as an example of democratic failure. Meanwhile those voters that did vote for Trump will only be contented if he manages to accomplish his spoken goals. Should he fail or only partially complete them then faith in politics will dwindle proportionately.

 

Combine this with the deep state, military industrial complex, and racial divides it wouldn't surprise me if we're in for a civil war (whether it will be a brief one where the State will be having a month-long spring cleaning or if it will drag on for decades across the country depends on how solid the existing two-party system is and how much faith the military and its own factions have in the system as a whole). If the Right wins then I doubt we have much to fear--in fact, we may be in for a renaissance like the Roman Republic did for the first century after its semi-official transformation into the Roman Empire. However if the Left wins then a series of future revolutions, both guerrilla and mass-ranked based, is guaranteed. Even if the Right were to win I imagine the Left won't die quietly.

 

Either way the only possibility AnCap has is to ride the wave and become one of the future competitors for national unification. 

 

Of course I think this is only one of many possibilities, perhaps with only a 10% likelihood. However I think it is safe to assume some kind of revolt (either open violence, closeted violence, or peaceful) is guaranteed. 

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Anglicanism is very unlikely to survive into even the near future. The UK compared to the rest of Europe from what I have seen has the most churches and chapels, many of which are now abandoned. One reason is Anglicanism is not as integrated into the culture as many other religions are. Catholics have Saint days, carnivals, better schools, various laws that are directly part of the culture.  Another reason is Anglicanism is a direct arm of centralised state power and I don't think they have as many tax exemptions as religions in other countries may have. Many old people are tempted to move to different Christian denominations including Catholic and I don't think there are that many young people joining Anglicanism if any.

 

Protestantism is much more prevalent in the United States, have churches on nearly every street corner it seems in some places. Bible belt that runs up into Canada has a lot of churches as well. I think they are exempt from taxation in the USA, Trump said something during the election of allowing the churches to participate in political discussion and retain their tax exemptions. I think Protestantism is likely to continue to survive for a long while in the USA largely because of it's decentralised and tax exempt status. They are also prevalent in missionary work I believe.

 

Catholicism imo is more integrated into the cultures and daily lives of the countries it has followers in. How prevalent it will continue to be into the future I have no idea, I'd imagine Catholicism will survive for sometime still. I don't think Pope Francis did much justice when he commented on Trumps wall plan before he was elected, when Vatican City has one. Listening to a Catholic Podcaster/Economist Tom Woods I remember him commenting on how some of what Pope Francis is saying is very socialist in nature. Compared to the last Pope Benedict(Why did he quit? Is there a theological basis for Popes quitting?) making at least some comments on Islam not being peaceful and pissing off Turkey there is some difference.

 

I don't think anyone wins a war, but if the question is, what is the way to the most authentic religious/trans-formative experience? then that resides in the individual, but also in compassion. Though I don't really know, sounded good to me, so much seems superficial. In the big picture why does it matter if one group has 100 million followers and another 5.

 

The rise of Islam is the shadow of the West.

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Have you read any Spengler, Mishi2?

Not yet, but now that you brought it up, I just might. Is the Decline of the West ​what you suggest? Anything you would like to address about it?

 

 

In the big picture why does it matter if one group has 100 million followers and another 5.

 

The rise of Islam is the shadow of the West.

All well said, RichardY

 

The reason why numbers matter is that if an ideology is evolutionarily disadvantagious, the adherents will most likely die off, whereas if said ideology supports life, then will it grow in numbers.

So as an example, no matter how much Muslims massacre each other, and no matter how "civilised" Christians are, numbers don't lie. Perhaps we should reconsider the option of burning heretics, how'bout that? ;)

 

Answering your question on the Pope. Papal resignation in Canon Law:http://canonlawmadeeasy.com/2013/01/03/can-a-pope-everresign/

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Not yet, but now that you brought it up, I just might. Is the Decline of the West ​what you suggest? Anything you would like to address about it?

 

 

Yes, I've been reading Decline.  Two points:

 

1. He divides the phases of a culture into (a) Culture, and (b) Civilisation.  A Culture is young, vibrant, exploratory, creative, artistic.  A Civilisation is old, stultified, money-based, practical, in the twilight or decline--possibly reaching a steady state like China, but also possibly being extinguished and conquered.  The Classic example is between the Roman republic and the empire, but he delineates other cultures as well.

 

2. He calls the West "Faustian" and distinguishes it from the "Magian" culture of the Middle Eastern religions.  The nature of Faustian civilisation is in the symbol of the infinite.  We are the infinity culture.  For example, look at all the modern Western genres of popular culture:  Science Fiction, Fantasy, Mystery/Crime, Horror, Pornography, and Superhero.  None of these things were created by non-Faustian cultures in the way that we have them, and all of these things represent drives towards liberation.  SF is infinite science.  Fantasy is the infinity of alternate, what Tolkien called "Secondary Worlds".  Mystery/Crime showcases infinite intellect and the power of forensics technology.  Horror is the infinite destruction of the body and the despair of the mind.  Pornography is the total liberation of the libido.  And Superhero is the liberation of the normal man through the acquisition of quasi-magical powers.  There are many more examples of how the Faustian culture is the infinity culture.  Other cultures have their own symbols, not all of which are explicated by Spengler, whose concern is the West and its decline.

 

EDIT:  Also the genre called Western:  the unlimited possibilities of the Frontier and the willed ego.

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The reason why numbers matter is that if an ideology is evolutionarily disadvantagious, the adherents will most likely die off, whereas if said ideology supports life, then will it grow in numbers.

So as an example, no matter how much Muslims massacre each other, and no matter how "civilised" Christians are, numbers don't lie. Perhaps we should reconsider the option of burning heretics, how'bout that? ;)

 

Answering your question on the Pope. Papal resignation in Canon Law:http://canonlawmadeeasy.com/2013/01/03/can-a-pope-everresign/

 

Ideologies are not Holy or Whole, Libertarianism included. Not really sure, maybe a Faustian bargain with the one Ideology likely to dominate is a good idea. Work with, where interests are the same perhaps, not sure if that is possible. Bit harsh on the Heretics, looking at a large chunk of the Northern Hemisphere :(

 

2. He calls the West "Faustian" and distinguishes it from the "Magian" culture of the Middle Eastern religions.  The nature of Faustian civilisation is in the symbol of the infinite.  We are the infinity culture.  For example, look at all the modern Western genres of popular culture:  Science Fiction, Fantasy, Mystery/Crime, Horror, Pornography, and Superhero.  None of these things were created by non-Faustian cultures in the way that we have them, and all of these things represent drives towards liberation.  SF is infinite science.  Fantasy is the infinity of alternate, what Tolkien called "Secondary Worlds".  Mystery/Crime showcases infinite intellect and the power of forensics technology.  Horror is the infinite destruction of the body and the despair of the mind.  Pornography is the total liberation of the libido.  And Superhero is the liberation of the normal man through the acquisition of quasi-magical powers.  There are many more examples of how the Faustian culture is the infinity culture.  Other cultures have their own symbols, not all of which are explicated by Spengler, whose concern is the West and its decline.

 

EDIT:  Also the genre called Western:  the unlimited possibilities of the Frontier and the willed ego.

I agree. Spengler looks well worth reading, reading briefly on wikipedia about him seems eerily accurate and prophetic if not widely referenced for some reason. When I read your post the Benny Hill theme tune came to mind for some reason, later saw an article on infowars that linked the tune to migrant crime in Sweden, a bit bizarre, don't know if it is some collective unconscious, World Spirit or something at work. Saw a video on the Internet that there are 10 dimensions in total, doing a search, there are some videos that say 11, thought came to mind when you mentioned Tolkein. Limits and discipline have been concepts on my mind a fair bit.

 

To boldly go where no man, women, gender fluid...... has gone before. :huh:

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"It is not the strongest of the species that survives, nor the most intelligent that survives. It is the one that is most adaptable to change." - Darwin

 

I see Islam the most rigid of those listed, and therefore the most likely to fail. 

 

I would love to see the return of Tengriism, and it is happening in some small parts of Asia.

 

Just because a religion is high or low on the population charts right now, means nothing. 

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"It is not the strongest of the species that survives, nor the most intelligent that survives. It is the one that is most adaptable to change." - Darwin

 

I see Islam the most rigid of those listed, and therefore the most likely to fail. 

 

I would love to see the return of Tengriism, and it is happening in some small parts of Asia.

 

Just because a religion is high or low on the population charts right now, means nothing. 

- I find it a bit of a long shot to equate ideology to species. Can you support that quote with examples perhaps?

- If you would like to see the return of Tengrism, you probably have no idea what you are talking about. I shall leave it at that until you make a good case.

- It is not that it is low on the charts. I was highlighting the tendency. If an ideology has been dropping double digits in percentage consistently for a couple hundred years, it is most likely failing.

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Honestly, this is just the same as playing what if in history, its fun but completely impossible to actually predict. You have no idea what turns will come in the future and for what reasons. I'd bet my life savings that Constantine wasn't sitting there saying "I bet there will be a 2.0", but it happened. I was more just playing devil's advocate, but I will try to respond all the same.

 

I agree it is a longshot but will try. Why are homosapiens here and not neanderthals. They are 99.7% genetically the same. So I would have to argue their thoughts is what really separated them. Homo sapiens colonized the earth, and neanderthals are typically found north of a certain latitude. One was rigid in their ways and found extinction because they could no longer adapt. The other was flexible and changed with the times and environment. 

 

Tengrism - "We believe that there is only one God, by whom we live and by whom we die, and for whom we have an upright heart. But as God gives us the different fingers of the hand, so he gives to men diverse ways to approach him." ("Account of the Mongols. Diary of William Rubruck" - I respect the religion because they respected others. I don't know much about the inward practices of the religion, but they taught respect of others. I have read a small amount about it, and I like its summarized form. 

 

I agree the religion is currently failing.

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Thanks for the reply, Crazyi!

 

Yes, as I said at the top of the thread, indeed rarely anything turns out as expected.

It is a good hypothesis that homo sapiens outdid the neandarthals because of ideology, but sadly we have no proof of that.

 

I can truly appreciate that you brought up the Mongols, since I happen to be one myself. It is indeed true and respectable that the Mongol empire was tolerant of religions, but in time that proved to be something that contributed to the downfall. Every time Tengrism comes into contact with either Christianity or Islam, it simply collapses as a viable ideology.

Now to be fair, there is in fact an ideological warfare going on between the Shamans and the Christians in Mongolia. These two religions have been skyrocketting in numbers since the fall of the Communist regime. Hard to say who would win, but I would not bet on Tengrism.

 

Theoreticals aside, Tengrism/Shamanism is a very very very toxic religion. I cannot stress this enough. It has ruined many families right before my eyes, and my family had a lot to do with it as well..

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