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My girlfriend hates Stefan


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22 replies to this topic

#1
Lee_Garrison

Lee_Garrison
  • 2 posts

I have known for some time that my girlfriend does not like Stefan. I've been listening to him for a year and a half and I have dated her for a year now. She just told me that she hates Stefan and is worried that I will become like him. After diving into this issue, it seems like she has decided to never like him and does not want me to listen to him. She has tried listening to him because she wants to better understand me and why I like him, but she always ends up angry. I don't know what to do with this information, and I need a little help. I know some people's immediate advice would be...dump her...she has revealed her true colors as a emotional leftist nut. It's never so black and white. 

 

I met my girlfriend when I was 18 and she was 17. I immediately took to the honest, smart, hard-working, pretty, country girl and her warm and welcoming family. I went off to college and we continued a long-distance relationship. It was very hard for me to stay close to her when we were so far away. I found myself wanting to be free of her. She then came to my college and it was great to finally have her there with me, but I started to feel like she was using me to define herself. She adored me and would acquiesce to my opinions. I started to feel like I wasn't dating a real person anymore...just a shadow of myself. We broke up and didn't speak for 3 years. In that time I had graduated from college and finished up my first year of medical school. I had dated around, but every girl I met had the same peculiar lack of agency. They were lost and didn't know what they wanted or what they thought. Even in medical school, I couldn't find anybody who I got excited about. Of course, I didn't have much time to be looking. The summer after my first year of medical school, my high-school sweetheart contacted me to ask about the volunteer work I had done overseas. It turned out that I had gone to the same clinic in the same small village, in the same country she had volunteered in twice during undergrad. I had a great time catching up with her over drinks back home where we had first met. I recognized that smart, pretty, farm-girl from all those years back, but something was different. She had opinions about everything and seemed to have really come into her own. A few days later, a fishing date heated up and it didn't take long for us both to see if there was something there. One big problem was that she would now be attending a different medical school in a different state and we would be starting a long-distance relationship that would remain long-distance for the next 4 years at the very least. I was terrified. Over the next year we were each other's rock. We complained about the long days of endless studying and talked about a distant future together. Over that same year I found Stefan...and immediately fell in love. I have had libertarian beliefs since childhood and was always frustrated by the inconsistencies around me. When I heard Stefan's logical, humorous, virtuous, consistent voice, everything else started to sound like pointless squawking. During study breaks, while making and eating meals, and during car rides I became familiar with Stefan and his view of the world. In many ways, it mirrored my current views, but it also patched up the cracks that had been unconsciously straining me. I felt whole. Perhaps some of you recognize that feeling. While my relationship with Stefan made me whole, my relationship with my girlfriend started taking a turn for the worse. Discussions about my support for Donald Trump, doubts about climate change, and numerous other issues quickly turned into heated arguments that left me confused and her in tears. I realized that she had developed some sacred cows during the three years we were apart. That time was spent with a slew of SJWs while she got her degree in environmental science and took Justice and Peace Studies courses. As I explored other issues with her, I encountered land mine after land mine that would leave me bleeding and confused. I knew she was a reasonable girl. Hell, she reads textbooks all day and had been conservative on most issues her whole life. I was fine avoiding certain topics with her, and I thought I could allow a little bit of irrationality in such a rational girl.  This all brings me to the other night…

 

Out of the blue, she told me that she had tried to listen to more of Stefan’s material and that it had made her mad. She wanted to know what it would take for me to stop listening to Stefan. I asked her why she was asking that. She said that she wanted to know how committed I was to him. I told her that I enjoy listening to his podcasts and that they seem to center me. The ones on news are sometimes the best collection of facts about an event. I told her that if Stefan started making bad arguments and divorced himself from what so far has been impeccable consistency then I would stop listening. She asked, if it ever were to come to the point where she thought I was changing, would I stop because she wanted me to. I then asked, “ Are you asking me to stop listening to Stefan?” She said no. I told her, “If I thought you were the sort of girl who would ask me to choose between a philosophy podcaster and her, then we wouldn’t be dating. She proceeded to tell me about her worries that Stefan was changing me for the worse… At one point she compared Freedomain Radio to a cult. She thinks that I blindly follow whatever Stefan says. I felt very insulted. She says that she thinks that I am a great person. She loves me and wants what’s best for me. She sees me get frustrated with the world and thinks that that means I am not happy. She said that she just wants me to be happy. I told her that both she and Stefan are in part responsible for my happiness and that she would do well to get on the same team. In the past, her arguments against Stefan start with a critique of what he says usually based in a misunderstanding or contortion on her part and then morph into a critique on the way he speaks/makes a point. I like the way he speaks/makes points, but she thinks that he is rude and abrasive and purposefully riles people up. His rudeness is only in response to rudeness. Also, he demands consistency from people, which can come across as abrasive at times, but which is necessary. The fact that when he has logical and consistent callers, the conversations are fun and amiable is no accident. To find truth, we must castigate sophists. I do understand her concern. We become who we surround ourselves with, and she doesn't like who I am surrounding myself with. She doesn't want me to change. I think that if any change has or will occur coming out of listening to Stefan, it is probably me becoming a more true version of myself.

 

So, I don’t know what to do. She seems pretty set in her assessment of Stefan. This may just be something we don’t talk about, like global warming or the border wall (Still no idea why). Aside from the lunacy surrounding Stefan, this is one of the best people I’ve ever met…honest, generous, courageous, smart, loving, and completely devoted to me. I know that life is never black and white, no one is perfect, and that the man who doesn’t ever compromise becomes stone. I know you can’t know her particularly well from what I’ve laid out here and that I’ve mostly presented red flags, but my underly questions is - Is her almost visceral aversion to Stefan a good look at what might be/become a visceral aversion to me? Should I hold liking Stefan as a standard? No one has the answers, but some guidance would be appreciated. 


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#2
EclecticIdealist

EclecticIdealist
  • 407 posts

You stated that she has a problem with some of the things that Stefan has said has made her mad. Have you talked about those things and why she holds the position she does? Have you had her make an argument for her position and support it with facts? Have you done the same with the arguments that you have heard Stefan and his guests make? Are you open to the possibility that Stefan is wrong about some of the positions he takes and you are willing to listen to an opposing point of view that specifically addresses those claims?

How critical are you, have you been, are you willing to be of the arguments and positions which Stefan makes?

Is it possible that Stefan has callers that are logical and consistent, but he is less than amiable towards because they disagree with his position and he manipulates the conversation to prevent them from making their argument in a rational and consistent manner by demanding they accept his unwarranted premises which they are calling in to challenge?

Have you been able to articulate clearly to her why you hold the positions you do, and has she been able to do the same?

If you can communicate on these issues, you may find you can disagree agreeably with one another. On the other hand, if you or she or both lack certain virtues the other requires in a partner, the relationship will be doomed unless growth occurs and those virtues are adopted and developed.


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#3
MMD

MMD

  • 2878 posts

Is it possible that Stefan has callers that are logical and consistent, but he is less than amiable towards because they disagree with his position and he manipulates the conversation to prevent them from making their argument in a rational and consistent manner by demanding they accept his unwarranted premises which they are calling in tour challenge?
 

 

It's almost like EclecticIdealist called into the show, was virtually incoherent and is now butt hurt about it. Nah, couldn't be.

 

http://www.fdrpodcas...ember-21st-2016


I have known for some time that my girlfriend does not like Stefan. I've been listening to him for a year and a half and I have dated her for a year now. She just told me that she hates Stefan and is worried that I will become like him. After diving into this issue, it seems like she has decided to never like him and does not want me to listen to him. She has tried listening to him because she wants to better understand me and why I like him, but she always ends up angry. I don't know what to do with this information, and I need a little help. I know some people's immediate advice would be...dump her...she has revealed her true colors as a emotional leftist nut. It's never so black and white. 

 

I met my girlfriend when I was 18 and she was 17. I immediately took to the honest, smart, hard-working, pretty, country girl and her warm and welcoming family. I went off to college and we continued a long-distance relationship. It was very hard for me to stay close to her when we were so far away. I found myself wanting to be free of her. She then came to my college and it was great to finally have her there with me, but I started to feel like she was using me to define herself. She adored me and would acquiesce to my opinions. I started to feel like I wasn't dating a real person anymore...just a shadow of myself. We broke up and didn't speak for 3 years. In that time I had graduated from college and finished up my first year of medical school. I had dated around, but every girl I met had the same peculiar lack of agency. They were lost and didn't know what they wanted or what they thought. Even in medical school, I couldn't find anybody who I got excited about. Of course, I didn't have much time to be looking. The summer after my first year of medical school, my high-school sweetheart contacted me to ask about the volunteer work I had done overseas. It turned out that I had gone to the same clinic in the same small village, in the same country she had volunteered in twice during undergrad. I had a great time catching up with her over drinks back home where we had first met. I recognized that smart, pretty, farm-girl from all those years back, but something was different. She had opinions about everything and seemed to have really come into her own. A few days later, a fishing date heated up and it didn't take long for us both to see if there was something there. One big problem was that she would now be attending a different medical school in a different state and we would be starting a long-distance relationship that would remain long-distance for the next 4 years at the very least. I was terrified. Over the next year we were each other's rock. We complained about the long days of endless studying and talked about a distant future together. Over that same year I found Stefan...and immediately fell in love. I have had libertarian beliefs since childhood and was always frustrated by the inconsistencies around me. When I heard Stefan's logical, humorous, virtuous, consistent voice, everything else started to sound like pointless squawking. During study breaks, while making and eating meals, and during car rides I became familiar with Stefan and his view of the world. In many ways, it mirrored my current views, but it also patched up the cracks that had been unconsciously straining me. I felt whole. Perhaps some of you recognize that feeling. While my relationship with Stefan made me whole, my relationship with my girlfriend started taking a turn for the worse. Discussions about my support for Donald Trump, doubts about climate change, and numerous other issues quickly turned into heated arguments that left me confused and her in tears. I realized that she had developed some sacred cows during the three years we were apart. That time was spent with a slew of SJWs while she got her degree in environmental science and took Justice and Peace Studies courses. As I explored other issues with her, I encountered land mine after land mine that would leave me bleeding and confused. I knew she was a reasonable girl. Hell, she reads textbooks all day and had been conservative on most issues her whole life. I was fine avoiding certain topics with her, and I thought I could allow a little bit of irrationality in such a rational girl.  This all brings me to the other night…

 

Out of the blue, she told me that she had tried to listen to more of Stefan’s material and that it had made her mad. She wanted to know what it would take for me to stop listening to Stefan. I asked her why she was asking that. She said that she wanted to know how committed I was to him. I told her that I enjoy listening to his podcasts and that they seem to center me. The ones on news are sometimes the best collection of facts about an event. I told her that if Stefan started making bad arguments and divorced himself from what so far has been impeccable consistency then I would stop listening. She asked, if it ever were to come to the point where she thought I was changing, would I stop because she wanted me to. I then asked, “ Are you asking me to stop listening to Stefan?” She said no. I told her, “If I thought you were the sort of girl who would ask me to choose between a philosophy podcaster and her, then we wouldn’t be dating. She proceeded to tell me about her worries that Stefan was changing me for the worse… At one point she compared Freedomain Radio to a cult. She thinks that I blindly follow whatever Stefan says. I felt very insulted. She says that she thinks that I am a great person. She loves me and wants what’s best for me. She sees me get frustrated with the world and thinks that that means I am not happy. She said that she just wants me to be happy. I told her that both she and Stefan are in part responsible for my happiness and that she would do well to get on the same team. In the past, her arguments against Stefan start with a critique of what he says usually based in a misunderstanding or contortion on her part and then morph into a critique on the way he speaks/makes a point. I like the way he speaks/makes points, but she thinks that he is rude and abrasive and purposefully riles people up. His rudeness is only in response to rudeness. Also, he demands consistency from people, which can come across as abrasive at times, but which is necessary. The fact that when he has logical and consistent callers, the conversations are fun and amiable is no accident. To find truth, we must castigate sophists. I do understand her concern. We become who we surround ourselves with, and she doesn't like who I am surrounding myself with. She doesn't want me to change. I think that if any change has or will occur coming out of listening to Stefan, it is probably me becoming a more true version of myself.

 

So, I don’t know what to do. She seems pretty set in her assessment of Stefan. This may just be something we don’t talk about, like global warming or the border wall (Still no idea why). Aside from the lunacy surrounding Stefan, this is one of the best people I’ve ever met…honest, generous, courageous, smart, loving, and completely devoted to me. I know that life is never black and white, no one is perfect, and that the man who doesn’t ever compromise becomes stone. I know you can’t know her particularly well from what I’ve laid out here and that I’ve mostly presented red flags, but my underly questions is - Is her almost visceral aversion to Stefan a good look at what might be/become a visceral aversion to me? Should I hold liking Stefan as a standard? No one has the answers, but some guidance would be appreciated. 

 

If she would like to call in and explain the flaws in Stefan's arguments, I'd be happy to schedule her for the show.

 

Ultimately this shouldn't have much to do with the messenger - either she has arguments and evidence to rebut claims she disagrees with - or she doesn't. That itself is the important piece of information. 

 

We don't get to reject logical arguments just because we don't like them.

 

Why are either of you open to having "things we can't talk about" no-go zones in your relationship?


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#4
Ninja

Ninja
  • 46 posts
In my humble opinion the issue isn't about Stefan but about his claims.

Ask her if she would be willing to listen to an episode of her choosing while both of you take notes about how the ideas presented make you feel.

Have a discussion about the fundamental beliefs that either of you hold about the claims she finds disturbing.

If your values are fundamentally opposed then you'll have identified a real issue and if not I'm sure she will realize that Stefan is not an obstruction of her well being.
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#5
DaVinci

DaVinci
  • 481 posts

It's almost like EclecticIdealist called into the show, was virtually incoherent and is now butt hurt about it. Nah, couldn't be.

 

http://www.fdrpodcas...ember-21st-2016

 

 

Why did you bring that up? 

 

------------------------------

 

@LeeGarrison I have no idea how good of a relationship you are in with this girl, even based on what you wrote here, but as for Stefan, I would recommend forgetting about him. He says things that are true, but he is just a guy, just like you are, and just like I am. I could say all the things Stef is saying and it wouldn't change the information. All that is important is the information. 

 

Your relationship with this girl is either good or it isn't. Spend the time you are spending listening to Stef with her instead. The Stef videos will still be here in a month or two months or six months. They aren't going anywhere.  You aren't obligated to listen to them the moment they get posted. 

 

If she is really how you describe, courageous, honest, etc then why wouldn't you want to spend as much time with her as you could? Do you really think you should see her dislike of Stef as the ultimate measure of her? I dislike lots of things. It doesn't make me a bad person not worth being in a relationship with. 

 

Perhaps if you back off from the Stef videos for a while she will open up to you a bit more. No one can be open when they are backed into a corner. 


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#6
Will Torbald

Will Torbald
  • 1003 posts

Sorry to hear about your problems. My guess is that you started becoming aware of the subtle ways women control men after listening to Stef, and unconsciously began to deflect her mind control rays (metaphor) and she became confused and upset that what used to work with you, isn't working anymore. Then she noticed why, and blamed Stefan for your newfound immunity against her mental viruses (metaphor). If she keeps you away from philosophical thinking, you will revert to the easy to herd man she used to know. So it's not about Stefan, it's you who got a little too smart for her own comfort.


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#7
thebeardslastcall

thebeardslastcall
  • 478 posts

"mad" is very vague and you said it twice with no further explanation really. I mean is it something like Torbald suggests, she's getting mad because from her perspective some bastard on the internet is giving you ideas which expose her manipulations and desires to avoid discussing issues? Perhaps she, like many insane people, just wants to "believe" things on faith instead of actually understanding them, which may then expose the possibility, as is often the case when people don't want you to challenge the ideas, that the ideas are in fact wrong and threatening to tribal inclusion for her and you? Find out exactly what makes her angry and then explore how that notion threatens her. If some crazy person on the internet says something I disagree with I have no real reason to get angry about it unless I feel like it's actually threatening in some way. If you can work through these issues with her you may end up with a keeper. I wouldn't carelessly toss the relationship away if she's open to talking through these things. If she's just demanding you have certain positions and not open to discussing things with you or exposing herself to you, which would be rejecting any capacity to grow with you, that doesn't seem like a fruitful or healthy relationship. As a single person I'm always weary of prematurely tossing away a potentially valuable relationship. Of course if it's a failure you'll want to move on to get to a real relationship as quickly as possible, as in that case staying with her would be inhibiting you from a better relationship or a preferred single state (if the relationship can't go anywhere good).


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#8
Thus_Spake_the_Nightspirit

Thus_Spake_the_Nightspirit
  • 119 posts

My husband also dislikes Stef, but not to the same degree that your gf seems to. I don't agree with the advice that you give up something you like just to please her. That is self-erasing and not something she has any right to ask of you or expect of you. Might she be open to couples therapy to explore these issues of why you have no-go zones in your relationship and why she feels so upset about Stef?


  • 1

#9
shirgall

shirgall

    Bacon

  • 2975 posts

It's almost like EclecticIdealist called into the show, was virtually incoherent and is now butt hurt about it. Nah, couldn't be.

Why did you bring that up? 

 

Perhaps he wanted to see if anyone would call him on "not an argument".

 

As for what the thread is really about... Anger is a common reaction is being challenged on things that one considers sacred. I still get miffed when Stefan states that atheists are 'x' even though I know 1) "not all atheists", 2) it's really unimportant since atheism is a statement as to what someone is not, not what someone is, and 3) my experience of atheism is considerably different than Stefan's. I may know all these things but the emotional reaction still comes. Is it worth figuring out or calling into the show about? Will I spend 100 hours of therapy on it? Probably not.

 

Treat your girlfriend with curiosity and respect. Find out what it is that is bothering her. Dig out "why" if you can. And recognize that it may not be a mystery that is easily solved or that the underlying cause may not easily be corrected.


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#10
Lee_Garrison

Lee_Garrison
  • 2 posts

Thank you for your responses. I realize that you guys don't know my relationship. I kinda wanted to just type out some of what I was thinking. This girl is special. She is on another level above the sort of girls I met throughout college.

 

What scares me about my relationship is that I find myself tiptoeing around philosophy and politics around her because it so often will turn into an argument. What scares me more is that I think we agree on a lot of issues. I turn inward and try to analyze the way I am approaching these conversations. I think I am fair and patient. Too often, she takes the nuclear option and begins crying and criticizes our relationship (She nearly broke up with me over my support of Trump). This sounds bad, I know, but if I avoid politics, she is a different person, a person I love and who loves me. I have always been interested in philosophy and politics and the ways they interact. Since I can remember, I have loved getting riled up watching the news and ranting with my parents about the world. I introduced my family to Stef, and they all love him, which was no surprise to me. Censoring myself around my girlfriend is tedious and makes me feel distant.

 

I think the best advice from above was to listen to freedomain radio together so I can see her gears working and better understand why she has such a strong aversion to him. When she listens to him on her own, she gets hung up on details and phrasing. I think she listens to him like someone watches an opposing team. I don't think it's time to give up hope for this relationship. I would love it if she liked Stef and agreed with his arguments, but frankly, all I want is for her to be able to talk about these issues in a fair and critical way. I know her parents well, and it seems like her mother is used to things going her way. My girlfriend has said that it was always her mom's way or the highway...no arguments, and getting into that issue might be fruitful.


  • 1

#11
thecurrentyear

thecurrentyear
  • 152 posts

I think you made a mistake by letting her go off and "find herself" for 3 years. You were expecting young women looking for a captain to be whole, self-determined and, well...manly. Your description of falling in love with Stef is further evidence of my suspicion that you were expecting them to act like the strong, logical father figure that I assume you were lacking in childhood. (I'm sorry for that experience.) 

 

It is no surprise that after these girls went through the socialized college system that they now had opinions that don't jive with yours. Be careful what you wish for! They did grow and fully form without you by their side...and--surprise, surprise!--they didn't turn out like the man you were looking for. 

 

You should've been the strong leader they--and you--wanted and needed. Hey, you can't go back and change what's done. But, you can grow up and be more manly in your relationship with your girlfriend, if you intend to keep her. I can't really advise you on how to do that, as I'm not a man. But I'm sure some others will come along with competent help.


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#12
WasatchMan

WasatchMan

    Aspiring "thorn in your amygdala" philosopher

  • 706 posts
Given the vagueness of her dislike and escalation my guess is she dislikes Stefan, and in particular you listening to Stefan, because if you internalized and lived the principles he promotes, your relationship would end. Given the principles that Stefan promotes, this means she benefits in some way by you not living your values.
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#13
DaVinci

DaVinci
  • 481 posts

Thank you for your responses. I realize that you guys don't know my relationship. I kinda wanted to just type out some of what I was thinking. This girl is special. She is on another level above the sort of girls I met throughout college.

 

What scares me about my relationship is that I find myself tiptoeing around philosophy and politics around her because it so often will turn into an argument. What scares me more is that I think we agree on a lot of issues. I turn inward and try to analyze the way I am approaching these conversations. I think I am fair and patient. Too often, she takes the nuclear option and begins crying and criticizes our relationship (She nearly broke up with me over my support of Trump). This sounds bad, I know, but if I avoid politics, she is a different person, a person I love and who loves me. I have always been interested in philosophy and politics and the ways they interact. Since I can remember, I have loved getting riled up watching the news and ranting with my parents about the world. I introduced my family to Stef, and they all love him, which was no surprise to me. Censoring myself around my girlfriend is tedious and makes me feel distant.

 

I think the best advice from above was to listen to freedomain radio together so I can see her gears working and better understand why she has such a strong aversion to him. When she listens to him on her own, she gets hung up on details and phrasing. I think she listens to him like someone watches an opposing team. I don't think it's time to give up hope for this relationship. I would love it if she liked Stef and agreed with his arguments, but frankly, all I want is for her to be able to talk about these issues in a fair and critical way. I know her parents well, and it seems like her mother is used to things going her way. My girlfriend has said that it was always her mom's way or the highway...no arguments, and getting into that issue might be fruitful.

 

Should the main measure of your relationship really be Stef or FDR, or You Tube videos? If she watches all the videos and goes "wow that Stef guy is awesome" but then isn't there for you when you need her to be, well, then sitting down to watch the videos together doesn't mean much does it? 

 

You described her as honest and courageous, etc. She either is or isn't those things. If she isn't those things then you don't need to sit down and try to get her to watch Stef videos. You just need to break up with her, right? Explain what the goal is to get her to watch these videos with you, or at all. If she goes "Yeah, those videos aren't for me" is that going to be a deal breaker? 


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#14
Will Torbald

Will Torbald
  • 1003 posts

Thank you for your responses. I realize that you guys don't know my relationship. I kinda wanted to just type out some of what I was thinking. This girl is special. She is on another level above the sort of girls I met throughout college.

 

What scares me about my relationship is that I find myself tiptoeing around philosophy and politics around her because it so often will turn into an argument. What scares me more is that I think we agree on a lot of issues. I turn inward and try to analyze the way I am approaching these conversations. I think I am fair and patient. Too often, she takes the nuclear option and begins crying and criticizes our relationship (She nearly broke up with me over my support of Trump). This sounds bad, I know, but if I avoid politics, she is a different person, a person I love and who loves me. I have always been interested in philosophy and politics and the ways they interact. Since I can remember, I have loved getting riled up watching the news and ranting with my parents about the world. I introduced my family to Stef, and they all love him, which was no surprise to me. Censoring myself around my girlfriend is tedious and makes me feel distant.

 

I think the best advice from above was to listen to freedomain radio together so I can see her gears working and better understand why she has such a strong aversion to him. When she listens to him on her own, she gets hung up on details and phrasing. I think she listens to him like someone watches an opposing team. I don't think it's time to give up hope for this relationship. I would love it if she liked Stef and agreed with his arguments, but frankly, all I want is for her to be able to talk about these issues in a fair and critical way. I know her parents well, and it seems like her mother is used to things going her way. My girlfriend has said that it was always her mom's way or the highway...no arguments, and getting into that issue might be fruitful.

 

"If you ignore all her red flags, then she's really great!" Well no s#!t Sherlock. The point is that if she can't be rational then she's really not special, isn't she? It's a big stereotype to say that women are emotional, and she's dead center on it. And I get that the usual college girl is a slut on the cock carousel, and you found a nice country girl, but that doesn't mean she's incorrigible. The thing you have to realize is that she will always be this way. See the future, 10, 20 years ahead. What will you do after you can't be yourself with her and intimate your true opinions? It will drive you mad.


  • 1

#15
Matthew Ed Moran

Matthew Ed Moran
  • 531 posts

Thank you for your responses. I realize that you guys don't know my relationship. I kinda wanted to just type out some of what I was thinking. This girl is special. She is on another level above the sort of girls I met throughout college.

 

What scares me about my relationship is that I find myself tiptoeing around philosophy and politics around her because it so often will turn into an argument. What scares me more is that I think we agree on a lot of issues. I turn inward and try to analyze the way I am approaching these conversations. I think I am fair and patient. Too often, she takes the nuclear option and begins crying and criticizes our relationship (She nearly broke up with me over my support of Trump). This sounds bad, I know, but if I avoid politics, she is a different person, a person I love and who loves me. I have always been interested in philosophy and politics and the ways they interact. Since I can remember, I have loved getting riled up watching the news and ranting with my parents about the world. I introduced my family to Stef, and they all love him, which was no surprise to me. Censoring myself around my girlfriend is tedious and makes me feel distant.

 

I think the best advice from above was to listen to freedomain radio together so I can see her gears working and better understand why she has such a strong aversion to him. When she listens to him on her own, she gets hung up on details and phrasing. I think she listens to him like someone watches an opposing team. I don't think it's time to give up hope for this relationship. I would love it if she liked Stef and agreed with his arguments, but frankly, all I want is for her to be able to talk about these issues in a fair and critical way. I know her parents well, and it seems like her mother is used to things going her way. My girlfriend has said that it was always her mom's way or the highway...no arguments, and getting into that issue might be fruitful.

 

Maybe someone has said this already, but it could be that your girlfriend is simply more intelligent than other girls you have dated. She would be able to have the foresight and impulse control to act a certain way before you were married, after which she would become more of what you are seeing that is negative about her. It's not completely unheard of. I frankly think it is no less than testicular suicide to become romantically involved with a woman who cries and becomes a bully when you disagree with her, no matter how good she otherwise appears to be - because a woman with serious integrity would not do those things. You said she is pretty so I imagine you are very effected by that as all men are (myself included).

 

I think it's important how open you have been with your friends and family about these tactics of hers and what they think.

 

I would really appreciate it if you called in. I say that out of pure greed, but I'm sure you'd get some benefit too.


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#16
Caley McKibbin

Caley McKibbin
  • 39 posts
Is it possible that Stefan has callers that are logical and consistent, but he is less than amiable towards because they disagree with his position and he manipulates the conversation to prevent them from making their argument in a rational and consistent manner by demanding they accept his unwarranted premises which they are calling in tour challenge?

I've seen this accusation of "manipulation" many times and don't see the merit.  The only way to be prevented from making an argument is physically not being able to speak, as in your voice is drowned out.  Even if the other person doesn't like what you said, you still said it.  For everyone else, you either have a good case or you don't.

 

OP, I could only ever have one thing to say to someone that does this:

Out of the blue, she told me that she had tried to listen to more of Stefan’s material and that it had made her mad. She wanted to know what it would take for me to stop listening to Stefan. I asked her why she was asking that. She said that she wanted to know how committed I was to him.

You don't control what other people say to me.  You only control what you say to me.  If your argument fails, too bad, so sad, get a better one or get better at expressing yourself.  Otherwise it's just vagina negotiating with penis, so the answer to the question is: some of that vagina power will have to be shifted from getting something else to getting this.  It's like a video game where you allocate an energy pool to shield, weapons, etc.  Want more weapons?  Say buh-bye to some shields.

 

At one point she compared Freedomain Radio to a cult. She thinks that I blindly follow whatever Stefan says. I felt very insulted.

Cult accusations are basically laziness.  No argument?  Let's try fear.  Don't listen to ____.  He has invisible tentacles that go in your ears and control your thoughts.  When everyone other than the alleged cult has someone's ear for x time and then you within a fraction of that time undermine all of it, I ask how incompetent everyone else is.  Maybe it's less an insult than a confession.  We are so incompetent that in your whole life before you found ____ we never said anything of impact, even with the titanic advantage of forcing you to listen to us exclusively for at least 12 years partly before your brain was developed enough to be suspicious of our motives.


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#17
NotDarkYet

NotDarkYet
  • 840 posts

Blue pill women can smell red-pill ideas from a mile away.


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#18
EclecticIdealist

EclecticIdealist
  • 407 posts

I've seen this accusation of "manipulation" many times and don't see the merit. The only way to be prevented from making an argument is physically not being able to speak, as in your voice is drowned out. Even if the other person doesn't like what you said, you still said it. For everyone else, you either have a good case or you don't.

So, what you're saying is, if before you can present your argument, you’re asked to first present his argument (something you don't have years of practice doing over the phone off the top of your head, the way he does), but perhaps that wasn't intentional manipulation taken from Saul Alinsky's "Rules for Radicals", right?

And you are not allowed to cut off or atempt to talk over Stefan, even though he's allowed to and often does this to you, right? (If you try to, the call ends)

You are also not allowed to refer to any argument that Stefan makes as his argument, right? Or refer to any unique definition that he uses that differs from the commonly accepted definition as his definition, or the call ends, right? Even if that is precisely what you called in to talk about.

But that's not manipulation either. And when Stefan goes on to disparage the caller's ability to make a case for his position under such one-sided, unequal circumstances, that's not manipulation after the fact either, right?

Pay very close attention next time and you'll start to notice all the subtle (and not so subtle) rhetorical tricks he uses to manipulate and control the discussion. Then, you may start to notice where he and others use them elsewhere.
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#19
MMD

MMD

  • 2878 posts

So, what you're saying is, if before you can present your argument, you’re asked to first present his argument (something you don't have years of practice doing over the phone off the top of your head, the way he does), but perhaps that wasn't intentional manipulation taken from Saul Alinsky's "Rules for Radicals", right?

And you are not allowed to cut off or atempt to talk over Stefan, even though he's allowed to and often does this to you, right? (If you try to, the call ends)

You are also not allowed to refer to any argument that Stefan makes as his argument, right? Or refer to any unique definition that he uses that differs from the commonly accepted definition as his definition, or the call ends, right? Even if that is precisely what you called in to talk about.

But that's not manipulation either. And when Stefan goes on to disparage the caller's ability to make a case for his position under such one-sided, unequal circumstances, that's not manipulation after the fact either, right?

Pay very close attention next time and you'll start to notice all the subtle (and not so subtle) rhetorical tricks he uses to manipulate and control the discussion. Then, you may start to notice where he and others use them elsewhere.

 

All you need to do is listen to EclecticIdealist's call. Game. Set. Match.


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#20
Fred Black Fox

Fred Black Fox
  • 96 posts

Aside from the lunacy surrounding Stefan, this is one of the best people I’ve ever met…honest, generous, courageous, smart, loving, and completely devoted to me.

 

Thank you for sharing! It’s a fascinating story and I loved reading it.

 

I think we can all agree that she is not acting with integrity in this instance. For example, she is not honest about her feelings around this issue – "I feel irritation and anger when we talk about philosophy" – but instead jumps to conclusions and creates mythologies, like saying you follow a cult (which is a terrible insult).

It is also apparent that you are passionate about philosophical thinking and philosophical conversations and that this will always be a part of your life.

 

I don’t doubt that she is a good person who you love to hang out with!

 

The basic question as I see it really is whether she truly wants to change her ways or not. She is acting out her False Self – the dishonest, irrational, unloving self – and thus it becomes the matter of interest whether she chooses to let go of her False Self given enough consciousness about the truth of the conflict.

 

It could be, for example, that she is unconsciously protecting her internalized mother because philosophy would expose uncomfortable truths about her. It could be that she has made decisions based on false beliefs that she would be too terrified to admit to herself, and thus unconsciously acts out in order to protect her (false) sense of self-worth.

 

The only way to find that out is, in my view, to dedicate both of yourself to the curious exploration of the underlying web of emotions that comes up when you talk about these topics.

 

This sounds very simple – and it is – but, talking from experience, takes quite a lot of training and courage. I am, of course, talking about "RTRing" as it is described in Real-Time Relationships. Have you read that book?

 

RTRing – being honest about your feelings in the moment without the "because" (conclusion) – is the only way to get to the truth of any relationship.


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#21
Mykaelous

Mykaelous
  • 21 posts

I have known for some time that my girlfriend does not like Stefan. I've been listening to him for a year and a half and I have dated her for a year now. She just told me that she hates Stefan and is worried that I will become like him. After diving into this issue, it seems like she has decided to never like him and does not want me to listen to him. She has tried listening to him because she wants to better understand me and why I like him, but she always ends up angry. I don't know what to do with this information, and I need a little help. I know some people's immediate advice would be...dump her...she has revealed her true colors as a emotional leftist nut. It's never so black and white. 

 

I met my girlfriend when I was 18 and she was 17. I immediately took to the honest, smart, hard-working, pretty, country girl and her warm and welcoming family. I went off to college and we continued a long-distance relationship. It was very hard for me to stay close to her when we were so far away. I found myself wanting to be free of her. She then came to my college and it was great to finally have her there with me, but I started to feel like she was using me to define herself. She adored me and would acquiesce to my opinions. I started to feel like I wasn't dating a real person anymore...just a shadow of myself. We broke up and didn't speak for 3 years. In that time I had graduated from college and finished up my first year of medical school. I had dated around, but every girl I met had the same peculiar lack of agency. They were lost and didn't know what they wanted or what they thought. Even in medical school, I couldn't find anybody who I got excited about. Of course, I didn't have much time to be looking. The summer after my first year of medical school, my high-school sweetheart contacted me to ask about the volunteer work I had done overseas. It turned out that I had gone to the same clinic in the same small village, in the same country she had volunteered in twice during undergrad. I had a great time catching up with her over drinks back home where we had first met. I recognized that smart, pretty, farm-girl from all those years back, but something was different. She had opinions about everything and seemed to have really come into her own. A few days later, a fishing date heated up and it didn't take long for us both to see if there was something there. One big problem was that she would now be attending a different medical school in a different state and we would be starting a long-distance relationship that would remain long-distance for the next 4 years at the very least. I was terrified. Over the next year we were each other's rock. We complained about the long days of endless studying and talked about a distant future together. Over that same year I found Stefan...and immediately fell in love. I have had libertarian beliefs since childhood and was always frustrated by the inconsistencies around me. When I heard Stefan's logical, humorous, virtuous, consistent voice, everything else started to sound like pointless squawking. During study breaks, while making and eating meals, and during car rides I became familiar with Stefan and his view of the world. In many ways, it mirrored my current views, but it also patched up the cracks that had been unconsciously straining me. I felt whole. Perhaps some of you recognize that feeling. While my relationship with Stefan made me whole, my relationship with my girlfriend started taking a turn for the worse. Discussions about my support for Donald Trump, doubts about climate change, and numerous other issues quickly turned into heated arguments that left me confused and her in tears. I realized that she had developed some sacred cows during the three years we were apart. That time was spent with a slew of SJWs while she got her degree in environmental science and took Justice and Peace Studies courses. As I explored other issues with her, I encountered land mine after land mine that would leave me bleeding and confused. I knew she was a reasonable girl. Hell, she reads textbooks all day and had been conservative on most issues her whole life. I was fine avoiding certain topics with her, and I thought I could allow a little bit of irrationality in such a rational girl.  This all brings me to the other night…

 

Out of the blue, she told me that she had tried to listen to more of Stefan’s material and that it had made her mad. She wanted to know what it would take for me to stop listening to Stefan. I asked her why she was asking that. She said that she wanted to know how committed I was to him. I told her that I enjoy listening to his podcasts and that they seem to center me. The ones on news are sometimes the best collection of facts about an event. I told her that if Stefan started making bad arguments and divorced himself from what so far has been impeccable consistency then I would stop listening. She asked, if it ever were to come to the point where she thought I was changing, would I stop because she wanted me to. I then asked, “ Are you asking me to stop listening to Stefan?” She said no. I told her, “If I thought you were the sort of girl who would ask me to choose between a philosophy podcaster and her, then we wouldn’t be dating. She proceeded to tell me about her worries that Stefan was changing me for the worse… At one point she compared Freedomain Radio to a cult. She thinks that I blindly follow whatever Stefan says. I felt very insulted. She says that she thinks that I am a great person. She loves me and wants what’s best for me. She sees me get frustrated with the world and thinks that that means I am not happy. She said that she just wants me to be happy. I told her that both she and Stefan are in part responsible for my happiness and that she would do well to get on the same team. In the past, her arguments against Stefan start with a critique of what he says usually based in a misunderstanding or contortion on her part and then morph into a critique on the way he speaks/makes a point. I like the way he speaks/makes points, but she thinks that he is rude and abrasive and purposefully riles people up. His rudeness is only in response to rudeness. Also, he demands consistency from people, which can come across as abrasive at times, but which is necessary. The fact that when he has logical and consistent callers, the conversations are fun and amiable is no accident. To find truth, we must castigate sophists. I do understand her concern. We become who we surround ourselves with, and she doesn't like who I am surrounding myself with. She doesn't want me to change. I think that if any change has or will occur coming out of listening to Stefan, it is probably me becoming a more true version of myself.

 

So, I don’t know what to do. She seems pretty set in her assessment of Stefan. This may just be something we don’t talk about, like global warming or the border wall (Still no idea why). Aside from the lunacy surrounding Stefan, this is one of the best people I’ve ever met…honest, generous, courageous, smart, loving, and completely devoted to me. I know that life is never black and white, no one is perfect, and that the man who doesn’t ever compromise becomes stone. I know you can’t know her particularly well from what I’ve laid out here and that I’ve mostly presented red flags, but my underly questions is - Is her almost visceral aversion to Stefan a good look at what might be/become a visceral aversion to me? Should I hold liking Stefan as a standard? No one has the answers, but some guidance would be appreciated. 

I am going to use my last post of the day for you, so I hope I can add to the conversation.

First, from your post it is evident that you have a lot of self knowledge into your motivations and responses and have thought this out well. I believe that you already know the answer, but feel unsure because she has been a large emotional investment for you. Sometimes we

Second, "no go" topics are not ideal in a relationship with someone you should trust. Ideally your significant other is someone who you can completely confide in, someone who can make good judgments for you when you are incapacitated or not in the right state of mind, in other words someone you can trust. But how can you trust someone who you can't be open and honest with?

Third when you do talk about philosophy or matters of importance she has two reactions. The first is to get angry, and the second in to cry. The first is an emotional reaction that indicates a lack of self knowledge, if she is not able to work through the emotions to understand what in her past is causing her to have such a visceral reaction to a topic. The only way to salvage the relationship is if she is willing to work through her emotions(weather this is a worthy venture is your call). Her second reaction where she cry's is simply a way to manipulate you like she may have her father or mother into getting her way(again self-knowledge is key here). I would hazard a guess that there were a few arguments where she was unable to manipulate you by getting angry or crying to get you to agree with her and like many women she is now attempting to separate you from your support system so she can control you. This is an evolutionary tool that women have used since the dawn of man, as it is imperative that a woman has control over her mate as to maintain a monopoly on his resources. She fears that if she does not have your complete obedience that you may one day leave her like you did in the past which evolutionary would have been hugely detrimental to her and her children's continued existence.

Ultimately I do not believe it is the content of the arguments you are having that matter, but rather the social dynamics that are at play. You could easily be arguing over the color you should paint the walls, the fundamental dysfunction in this relationship runs deeper and more subconscious than that.


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#22
Goldenages

Goldenages
  • 71 posts

Hello,

 

what I would try is to figure out what is exactly that she does not like.

Just to say I "do not like" is an emotion, and the thing is to figure out what drives it.

 

Maybe she sees Stefan as a kind of Guru, and is afraid that your personality changes.

Maybe she is jealous, cause the time spent with the videos is not spent with her.

There are 1 million other things that can be the cause- if she is an honest person, as you described, it should be possible to pinpoint the problem.

 

regards

Andi


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#23
Spenc

Spenc
  • 156 posts

All you need to do is listen to EclecticIdealist's call. Game. Set. Match.

was he call 1 (UPB or call 4 (determinism)?


I'll offer $0.02 of reaction and hypothesis:

 

 

As I explored other issues with her, I encountered land mine after land mine that would leave me bleeding and confused. I knew she was a reasonable girl. Hell, she reads textbooks all day and had been conservative on most issues her whole life.

 

Sorry, but this sounds like complete bullshit to me.  Conservatism is ideology not philosophy.  It is a faulty methodology.  Many many many libertarians who are correct in most of their conclusions are deeply deeply flawed in their methodologies, let alone conservatives who typically fall on the spectrum of WRONG to HALF-RIGHT, at best.

 

Reading and reasoning are two very different activities resulting from very different skills in different areas of the brain.  The idea that reading means someone is prone to, or even capable of, sound reasoning is in my view false.

 

 

We become who we surround ourselves with.

 

She doesn't want me to change.

 

Hmmm. So then by proxy SHE too becomes who she surrounds herself with.  SHE doesn't want you to change.  By proxy, SHE DOESN'T WANT TO CHANGE

 

It isn't about you, it is about her.  You mention landmines and you mention later about how she grew up in a controlling matriarchy, so you're pointing out evidence that she has issues that have not been properly addressed in her history, and if she were to change, she would have to open up those old wounds.  She's scared of herself changing, not of you changing.


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