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Is MGTOW an unsustainable lifestyle?


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32 replies to this topic

#1
DaVinci

DaVinci
  • 429 posts

From my own experience in this realm it seems unsustainable. In the same way that a division of labor creates more wealth it seems that the MGTOW lifestyle is the opposite. You have to do everything yourself, or at the very least accept that you can't do everything yourself and not even bother with certain activities like making your own food everyday, keeping your house clean, etc. 

 

Granted if you are rich, it might not be a problem, but for the already poor I think MGTOW compounds the problems that come with being poor. 

 

Does anyone else have some experience in this realm, or some thoughts on if MGTOW is something that actually works in the long term?


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#2
Drew Davis

Drew Davis
  • 214 posts

I'm not purposefully living the MGTOW lifestyle, but I've been on my own for awhile. A period of that time, I was pretty broke and worried about food + housing.

 

I think that downsizing is an important element to preventing something like that. A single guy doesn't need a home all to himself with four bedrooms, three bathrooms, etc. A simple studio apartment or sharing a place with other people would suit just fine. Especially if someone is poor, then living on one's own is a luxury.

 

If you're own your own, then you're quite capable of taking on much more risk, as you don't have any dependents to worry about. If a man is poor and attempting to make it on his own, then there is a lot that is within his power to change that if he is dissatisfied. He fundamentally doesn't have to worry about making more money than what is required of him to provide for food and shelter for himself, which means that the threshold for success has dropped drastically. I think that alone might be manageable on part-time employment, in most places. With that extra time, he could educate himself, develop his skills, work more, or fulfill those additional tasks such as cooking, cleaning, etc.

 

When I was in KCMO, I worked part-time. My rent + utilities was $325 a month, excluding internet. Food was cheap too. With that little bit of work, I could sustain myself while I dedicated myself towards other important tasks and projects.


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#3
Dylan Lawrence Moore

Dylan Lawrence Moore
  • 431 posts

MGTOW will die out because it doesn't breed by definition.

 

Becoming a high quality man allows one to attract a high quality woman. The appearance of MGTOW on the matriarchal landscape is understandable, but I think it's really a weak reprisal.


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#4
Donnadogsoth

Donnadogsoth
  • 1284 posts

From my own experience in this realm it seems unsustainable. In the same way that a division of labor creates more wealth it seems that the MGTOW lifestyle is the opposite. You have to do everything yourself, or at the very least accept that you can't do everything yourself and not even bother with certain activities like making your own food everyday, keeping your house clean, etc. 

 

Granted if you are rich, it might not be a problem, but for the already poor I think MGTOW compounds the problems that come with being poor. 

 

Does anyone else have some experience in this realm, or some thoughts on if MGTOW is something that actually works in the long term?

 

In the long term, MGTOW are like Democrats in that they have a low fertility rate and so require periodic infusions of fresh bodies to avoid disappearing.  Or are there lots of MGTOW dads I haven't heard of?


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#5
DaVinci

DaVinci
  • 429 posts

Thanks for the replies!

 

If MGTOW allows someone to downsize their costs, and take more risks, then won't that risk taking either a.) payoff and be attractive to women who like risk taking men thus potentially moving you out of the MGTOW lifestyle, or b.) not pay off and keep you in the MGTOW lifestyle? 

 

Could MGTOW be a "reset button" for those who are looking for a romantic partner? If so, then why do so many see it as an end in itself, or as an escape from women? 


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#6
Drew Davis

Drew Davis
  • 214 posts

Haha, what timing.

 

I think that taking a break from dating and relationships is an important step for anyone, especially as they get their lives on track and process early childhood trauma. This break could prove to be fruitful. I know for me, having time to develop myself, become more secure, assertive, etc. has proven fruitful in all of my relationships, and especially so with the dating that I have done.

 

My understanding is that a lot of the MGTOW movement is a reaction to the state that they perceive women to be in, which to be fair has some justification. Anecdotally, I saw one guy share on reddit that he would rather be alone than go from "relationshit to relationshit." I think a lot of the guys want to be in a relationship, except are fed up with what they have found to be available.

 

I like the idea of MGTOW, men going their own way. I think that women should go their own way too. The opposite, in my mind, would be to need another person, and I think that relying upon others to satisfy psychological needs is inherently unhealthy.

 

But, yeah. The MGTOW movement as it stands is inherently unsustainable. I imagine it's more of a strike for a lot of men than anything else.


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#7
cab21

cab21
  • 878 posts
 I think that relying upon others to satisfy psychological needs is inherently unhealthy.

 

Why do you think this?

 

is stephan unhealthy for having a wife?

 

or is this in how we are defining rely and satisfy?

 

i would think a healthy relationship enhances happiness and satisfaction in a scale that makes a person more satisfied than alone.


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#8
cilantro

cilantro
  • 29 posts

I've been at it for many years. Sustainable is entirely up to you. No man needs a woman to run a household with no kids in it (if that). If you can't learn to cook or do the cleaning, then those are just choices you've made. Sure, it all wears me out a bit, I have no other choice, other than let it all decay, which I'm still avoiding.

 

The sadness of why this is my (or anyone's) reality is another matter, that analysis has been gone over plenty on this forum, yet is unique for each.

 

Innately, we don't want to be alone, especially when you have much to offer.

Contrary to some of the gospel projected here, I have found that having/creating value and being of substance with visible accomplishments does NOT change the response from a sleeping crowd of morons, no. In my experience it does NOT even inspire those of quality to step forward, no.

The reasons to be of, or create value, need to be entirely yours, for your own self respect and to manifest what gifts you came with.

Those are good enough reasons, and may be all you get. I find it a dangerous illusion to equate self actualization with a quality girlfriend suddenly appearing.

That's almost asking to get derailed.

 

Quality is so rare, that quality often assumes there's nothing to find, and unfortunately is often correct.

As realistic as that may be, it doesn't help to have that attitude either.

I guess, as many things are, it's a matter of where to compromise. Again, that's entirely up to you.

I think we've all witnessed couples who's existence is primarily petty bickering and power struggles, a lot of ugly behavior.

I ask myself, am I willing to make that kind of compromise to have company? I easily and instantly answer, no.

 

Remember, MGTOW isn't just a selection on a multi-choice what to be quiz, it's a response to the moral and ethical decay of women in the west.

It's a choice none of us would pick first, given a real set of choices, no.


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#9
rosencrantz

rosencrantz
  • 537 posts

There will always be men who can't find a partner. 


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#10
Wuzzums

Wuzzums
  • 1006 posts

MGTOW is another marxist trick to eradicate whites.

 

I have never seen a black MGTOW.

No married man is considered to be MGTOW.

No man with a girlfriend is considered MGTOW.

No man with a child is considered MGTOW.

MGTOW specifically targets teenagers to forgo female contact.

MGTOW creates a strawman of the female character as something undesirable (sour grapes).

MGTOW promotes isolation from society (ghosting).

MGTOW criticize any enjoyment of female interaction as misandry.

 

 

 

MGTOW sells itself as a male boycott to female vanity but its true intentions became clear after the "leaders" stated that there's no such thing as a good woman.


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#11
shirgall

shirgall

    Bacon

  • 2889 posts

MGTOW is just like BATNA, the Best Alternative to a Negotiated Agreement. It is important to remember in a negotiation that it's always a viable option to walk away from the table.

 

However, an agreement for mutual gain is preferable to no agreement at all.


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#12
thecurrentyear

thecurrentyear
  • 122 posts

 

Quality is so rare, that quality often assumes there's nothing to find, and unfortunately is often correct.

As realistic as that may be, it doesn't help to have that attitude either.

I guess, as many things are, it's a matter of where to compromise. Again, that's entirely up to you.

I think we've all witnessed couples who's existence is primarily petty bickering and power struggles, a lot of ugly behavior.

I ask myself, am I willing to make that kind of compromise to have company? I easily and instantly answer, no.

 

Wow, what a false dichotomy you've constructed. I am often confused by single men here on the FDR boards. They claim to be successful in other endeavors, and I find that hard to believe. The reason I find it hard to believe, is that when you've made the shift in mindset to find success and opportunities in every challenge (and that's what it takes to be successful), then how can you continue to claim victimhood and plead that the problem is nothing of your own making? Everyone successful in business, as far as I know, has had to face head-on the fact that your success or failure is the product of your own choosing and strategic activities to reach your goal. Why is relationship not viewed the same way? You want a quality woman, but they are hard to find? So what!? Go out and get her like all the money and business endeavors you wanted, but were hard to find. You did what needed to be done. I just don't get the disconnect.


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#13
cilantro

cilantro
  • 29 posts

" I am often confused by single men here on the FDR boards. They claim to be successful in other endeavors, and I find that hard to believe. The reason I find it hard to believe, is that when you've made the shift in mindset to find success and opportunities in every challenge (and that's what it takes to be successful), then how can you continue to claim victimhood and plead that the problem is nothing of your own making?"

 

 

Business and making money is straight forward and easy. If designed carefully, rarely if ever do you have to negotiate or deal with idiots or uncooperative types.

At a point enough is enough, and other forms of value can be pursued, and in my case have. For example, growing 100's of pounds of organic food and donating it to the poor and homeless, coaching young athletes, volunteering in other areas as well. This is on top of having already accrued the basic symbols of western success, home(s), financial security, basic health and personal maintenance, being reasonably well spoken, well traveled etc... Not that I view ANY of that as a prerequisite to experience decent behavior on the part of a potential friend, of EITHER gender.

 

Perhaps you equated disappointment with "victimhood" or the absence of viable candidates as my fault for not "trying hard enough" or whatever.

I have better things to do than vainly attempt to turn over every rock on the trail.

It's true I do NOT view business or the accruing of western symbols of "success" as something comparable to relationships, nor the process.

Truth is, I've largely lost interest in women and the necessary "pursuit of". I'm fine with a mutually shared approach, but who will play fair?

Who will NOT define me by what tangible evidence of "value" surrounds me? Who will bother to look past that at who I am? Who would care if they did?

Hope this makes some sense. Still, each man gets to decide what he'll put up with and why. So if others differ, that's expected, and fine.


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#14
meetjoeblack

meetjoeblack
  • 70 posts

MGTOW is another marxist trick to eradicate whites.

 

I have never seen a black MGTOW.

No married man is considered to be MGTOW.

No man with a girlfriend is considered MGTOW.

No man with a child is considered MGTOW.

MGTOW specifically targets teenagers to forgo female contact.

MGTOW creates a strawman of the female character as something undesirable (sour grapes).

MGTOW promotes isolation from society (ghosting).

MGTOW criticize any enjoyment of female interaction as misandry.

 

 

 

MGTOW sells itself as a male boycott to female vanity but its true intentions became clear after the "leaders" stated that there's no such thing as a good woman.

 

This is what scares me about the feeling of MGTOW calling me.

 

If you do not mate, you let your genes weeded out of existence or abstinent cause of genetic ostracism; women wont fuck. I think many have far gone bad experiences or a messy divorce that they are so pissed to have sworn off all women.

 

I saw a okcupid link that stated women rate 80% of men below average in looks. It can really show an ugly side of female vanity of vanity. So, in youth, women are climbing the dating pyramid after the males at the top, and this hypergamy. I get that but, the problem is that, many will put out and sleep around, chase these males with the pussy bomb. So, when these guys find a equal partner, some beta suppose marry a slut?

 

Its scary. so, guys date down in hope of that will be the compensation but still, someone is ungrateful, leaves, takes their money and kids. Its crazy.


Thanks for the replies!

 

If MGTOW allows someone to downsize their costs, and take more risks, then won't that risk taking either a.) payoff and be attractive to women who like risk taking men thus potentially moving you out of the MGTOW lifestyle, or b.) not pay off and keep you in the MGTOW lifestyle? 

 

Could MGTOW be a "reset button" for those who are looking for a romantic partner? If so, then why do so many see it as an end in itself, or as an escape from women? 

 

I think it is similar to Deida whereby the feminine is attracted to the masculine polarity. A male with status or prestige of some sort, money, wealth power, and vision. Then again, partly, it is due to the free money she gets when she leaves. I do think a man having a vision for his life goes a long way.


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#15
thecurrentyear

thecurrentyear
  • 122 posts

" I am often confused by single men here on the FDR boards. They claim to be successful in other endeavors, and I find that hard to believe. The reason I find it hard to believe, is that when you've made the shift in mindset to find success and opportunities in every challenge (and that's what it takes to be successful), then how can you continue to claim victimhood and plead that the problem is nothing of your own making?"


Business and making money is straight forward and easy. If designed carefully, rarely if ever do you have to negotiate or deal with idiots or uncooperative types.
At a point enough is enough, and other forms of value can be pursued, and in my case have. For example, growing 100's of pounds of organic food and donating it to the poor and homeless, coaching young athletes, volunteering in other areas as well. This is on top of having already accrued the basic symbols of western success, home(s), financial security, basic health and personal maintenance, being reasonably well spoken, well traveled etc... Not that I view ANY of that as a prerequisite to experience decent behavior on the part of a potential friend, of EITHER gender.

Perhaps you equated disappointment with "victimhood" or the absence of viable candidates as my fault for not "trying hard enough" or whatever.
I have better things to do than vainly attempt to turn over every rock on the trail.
It's true I do NOT view business or the accruing of western symbols of "success" as something comparable to relationships, nor the process.
Truth is, I've largely lost interest in women and the necessary "pursuit of". I'm fine with a mutually shared approach, but who will play fair?
Who will NOT define me by what tangible evidence of "value" surrounds me? Who will bother to look past that at who I am? Who would care if they did?
Hope this makes some sense. Still, each man gets to decide what he'll put up with and why. So if others differ, that's expected, and fine.


Funny how you clipped out and dodged instead of addressing your own false dichotomy
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#16
Wuzzums

Wuzzums
  • 1006 posts

This is what scares me about the feeling of MGTOW calling me.

 

If you do not mate, you let your genes weeded out of existence or abstinent cause of genetic ostracism; women wont fuck. I think many have far gone bad experiences or a messy divorce that they are so pissed to have sworn off all women.

 

I saw a okcupid link that stated women rate 80% of men below average in looks. It can really show an ugly side of female vanity of vanity. So, in youth, women are climbing the dating pyramid after the males at the top, and this hypergamy. I get that but, the problem is that, many will put out and sleep around, chase these males with the pussy bomb. So, when these guys find a equal partner, some beta suppose marry a slut?

 

Its scary. so, guys date down in hope of that will be the compensation but still, someone is ungrateful, leaves, takes their money and kids. Its crazy.

 

Women may rate looks lower but women are not visual creatures. There is more to a woman's affection than just looks.

Look at Donald Trump. Look at Melania Trump. Case and point.

 

I think it's a valid strategy to boycott female vanity by not interacting with them AND by cutting off their daddy-state. However MGTOW goes further and says there's no such thing as a mutually beneficial marriage, regardless of the meddling of the state. Anything that goes against biology should raise red flags for everybody.


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#17
cilantro

cilantro
  • 29 posts

Funny how you clipped out and dodged instead of addressing your own false dichotomy

 

Wow, what a false dichotomy you've constructed. I am often confused by single men here on the FDR boards. They claim to be successful in other endeavors, and I find that hard to believe. The reason I find it hard to believe, is that when you've made the shift in mindset to find success and opportunities in every challenge (and that's what it takes to be successful), then how can you continue to claim victimhood and plead that the problem is nothing of your own making? Everyone successful in business, as far as I know, has had to face head-on the fact that your success or failure is the product of your own choosing and strategic activities to reach your goal. Why is relationship not viewed the same way? You want a quality woman, but they are hard to find? So what!? Go out and get her like all the money and business endeavors you wanted, but were hard to find. You did what needed to be done. I just don't get the disconnect.

 

Addressing the claimed or accused "disconnect" and every other part "clipped out or dodged":

 

1st: the construction of a false dichotomy. "False" I assume is referring to your assumption or belief that the "shift in mindset" necessary for success in business is equal to and is equally applicable to the process of securing personal relationships, and that my claiming otherwise makes it not only "false" but also a dichotomy. This was not "dodged", being "clipped out" yes, but that's meaningless since it was directly responded to. The dichotomy only exists for the mindset that makes the assumptions that you've made when encountering mine. From my POV, there is no dichotomy. One set of solutions apply to a certain set of problems, and another different set of solutions apply to a different certain set of problems. I'm not saying that both sets of problems can't share ANY solutions,

but that they are not universally solved by the same set of solutions, as you imply, state or believe.

 

2nd: Business endeavors are NOT hard to find, they're everywhere, I'm tripping on them constantly without looking for them.

 

Next, all the rest that was "clipped out", which was just rephrasing the same argument that methods pursued in successful business endeavors are

equally potent and applicable to securing a successful relationship with a woman. Well, it should be obvious that "clipping out" redundancy is no form of

"dodging" anything.

 

To quote SM from the "what nobody will tell you" video:

 

"For me, I'm very patient now when it comes to seeing what people can bring to the table. I know what I can bring to the table. Before,

I was willing to make the relationship 70 or 80 or 90% my effort. But now, not a bit. Now I'm patient enough or relaxed enough in a way to be curious about what people are bringing to me, rather than focusing on the value I can bring to them. In the past I was willing to pedal a tandem uphill while the other person

smoked cigarettes and made phone calls, not anymore, now I say, "pedal, or get off". "

 

This does not entirely summarize my position on relationships, but it outlines IMO a valid position to start from, where as if I chose this position

as I approached business, it would be rather "unfruitful". Business is a shell game, it includes "not telling everything" and letting the market decide.

Being able to predict a market's response, helps you win that game. Perhaps some people are comfortable with this form of legal and socially "acceptable" dishonesty applied to relationships and individuals, I simply find myself, not in that category. I wouldn't bring a chainsaw to fix a watch, even though the chainsaw

could fix a fallen tree. If you're talking about diligence alone, and that whatever do diligence is applied to solving business problems could equally be applied to

relationships, then it's about accessibility. Business is accessible 24/7/365, it can be accessed from a chair in a room or at a flea market or whatever.

Relationship opportunities are not accessible 24/7/365 therefore "diligence" often has nowhere to go. Sure, there's no end to what efforts you could make to "force accessibility", but it's a crap shoot innately where as diligence applied to business is NOT. When I diligently shake an apple tree, I expect apples to fall, not oranges or skateboards. If I attempt to "diligently" shake the universe in hopes that a relationship will fall out, then all I can expect is that the probability of shaking out what I want to see, is increased as opposed to remaining nothing or static. There's no direct equation that reliably predicts the outcome of the effort.

This alone is very different from applying "diligence" to business, there's no comparison.

 

The often undiscussed component of any potential relationship is what is the "other" person is doing to find you, to identify you, to reach out to you.

To bring value to you, to be accessible to you, etc...It seems we're taught to ignore this (as men) and to accept full responsibility for the creation.

I reject this. I have my part to play, yes, I must have something to bring to the table, yes, but I will be "patient, relaxed and curious about what value is being brought to me". Unfortunately, most women resent this position, see it as unfair, won't respond to it, and expect the predictable 70 or 80 or 90% effort and offering of value to be produced by the man. I just won't go there, again.


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#18
Scribbles

Scribbles
  • 27 posts

Let me make this very clear

 

-MGTOW is essentially feminism except for men

-Meaning it is probably just as bad as feminism

-MGTOW is "men are independent! Don't need to rely on woman to get along!" Feminism is "Woman are independent! Don't need to rely on men to get along!"

 

Not all woman are horrible monsters (like me for example). I see too many fdr members not even trying to search for a rational woman.

 

All I want to say is the MGTOW lifestyle is not sustainable, we're supposed to be happier when partnered up. That's how we were designed to be.

Hope I cleared things up a bit :3


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#19
cilantro

cilantro
  • 29 posts

Let me make this very clear

 

-MGTOW is essentially feminism except for men

-Meaning it is probably just as bad as feminism

-MGTOW is "men are independent! Don't need to rely on woman to get along!" Feminism is "Woman are independent! Don't need to rely on men to get along!"

 

Not all woman are horrible monsters (like me for example). I see too many fdr members not even trying to search for a rational woman.

 

All I want to say is the MGTOW lifestyle is not sustainable, we're supposed to be happier when partnered up. That's how we were designed to be.

Hope I cleared things up a bit :3

 

Sure, I'd like to think that by prefacing a POV with "let me make this very clear" that it would convert fantasy to other,  but.....

 

MGTOW does not have a funded army of sjws, state sponsorship, nor 100 years of history/effects.

It doesn't cry, "matriarchy is the root of evil" or "women are oppressing us" or "it's my right to choose (abortion)" etc....

 

IF (big IF) it is another cultural marxism provided to us by social engineers to destroy, (as is feminism) then that has yet to be proven (and may, who knows).

If anyone has any solid evidence of this, please share it. It seems much more micro in scale, and doesn't seem to be promoted in academia, or leftist media for example.

 

BTW, men are ALWAYS "getting along" whether alone or supporting a woman additionally. hello?

 

Rational women claim to exist, as is "very clear" in the above proclamation, and I don't doubt it.

But there's far far fewer than the quantity of men who would insist upon that as a choice.

Therefore, it is inevitable that many men will do without or face unsavory compromise.

Doing without a rational woman is obviously a default state in many cases, not a primary choice as is inferred or stated often.

Nor is it a "problem to be solved" if the supply/demand ratio is grossly unfavorable, at best it becomes a race, who gets there first?

There will be one winner and many losers in such a contest. Perhaps that itself explains why many men won't bother to enter.

Would a woman enter such a race, if the scenario was reversed? LOL

 

It's clear that yes, we were designed to be partnered together, no dispute there, but this is "not an argument".

 

The more I think about it, the more I realize that I'm not a MGTOW exactly. I still prefer the idea of being with to being without.

I'm just disillusioned by the unfavorable odds, not to mention the nausea induced by the constant presence of anything but, a rational woman.

Once one remains in such a state for years, alternative POVs bubble up almost out of necessity, to console the aching mind,

and to make "some other" sense out of life, that does not include partnering and love. I now realize that MGTOW is more of a young man's thing.

A choice to not pursue procreation/family/marriage and to live otherwise. Being in the "otherwise" state having not chosen it, is not MGTOW.

It's similar, as it looks the same from the outside, even has shared assessments of the "situation", but is not innately the same.

This realization has been made as a result of being challenged here on fdr, so, Thank You to my adversaries, who without which, I may not have

looked more closely at the what is.


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#20
inquirius

inquirius
  • 43 posts

MGTOW, in its highest form, is a leaderless, individualistic forum of men with only two core tenets; never marry and never delude yourself about female nature.  Some prominent voices in MGTOW are Sandman, Stardusk (whom I admire and share most of my views with), Barbarossa, and TFM (also a hilarious and great influence), who offer their own nuanced MGTOW perspective but in no way lead anyone and very often disagree.  The most important aspect of every MGTOW should developing his ability to think logically, know himself, and do what makes him happy. Whether or not your life involves having sex with and being in the company of women is up to the individual, and of course, having less to do with women is a natural result of shedding previous white knight tendencies and learning what they're (white knight tendencies and women) really about.  

 

The aspect of the philosophy of MGTOW that onlookers often don't give it credit for, however, is the increased standards MGTOW men place on other men.  People look on MGTOW as either an inherently woman-hating way of thinking or a desert island for men who can't find a woman, but in reality, a proper MGTOW should challenge men and themselves about male behavior and thinking just as much than female behavior and thinking.  If you say you're a MGTOW and you're only paying attention to women, you are missing at least 50% of the point (and also not escaping a gynocentric view), yet critics of MGTOW only pay attention to those men who are not self-aware enough to criticize themselves.  So yes, as with any philosophy or way of thinking, you are going to find far less adept thinkers who abuse the philosophy, and you can obviously misrepresent MGTOW as a whole through giving those people a disproportionate voice.  

 

Ultimately, the sustainability of MGTOW doesn't matter, because MGTOW is an idea that most men would never summarily adopt anyway, and one that shouldn't be the only idea in the heads of those who do.  At best, MGTOW offers a way for men to re-focus on themselves and what makes them feel happy, and if a woman wants to be a part of that, that's great, but most do not.  And that's fine, really, because if MGTOW is anything, it is the act of telling all those who would try to shame men for doing what makes them happy to go **** themselves.  

 

Hope that clears things up.


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#21
Scribbles

Scribbles
  • 27 posts

Sure, I'd like to think that by prefacing a POV with "let me make this very clear" that it would convert fantasy to other,  but.....

 

MGTOW does not have a funded army of sjws, state sponsorship, nor 100 years of history/effects.

It doesn't cry, "matriarchy is the root of evil" or "women are oppressing us" or "it's my right to choose (abortion)" etc....

 

IF (big IF) it is another cultural marxism provided to us by social engineers to destroy, (as is feminism) then that has yet to be proven (and may, who knows).

If anyone has any solid evidence of this, please share it. It seems much more micro in scale, and doesn't seem to be promoted in academia, or leftist media for example.

 

BTW, men are ALWAYS "getting along" whether alone or supporting a woman additionally. hello?

 

Rational women claim to exist, as is "very clear" in the above proclamation, and I don't doubt it.

But there's far far fewer than the quantity of men who would insist upon that as a choice.

Therefore, it is inevitable that many men will do without or face unsavory compromise.

Doing without a rational woman is obviously a default state in many cases, not a primary choice as is inferred or stated often.

Nor is it a "problem to be solved" if the supply/demand ratio is grossly unfavorable, at best it becomes a race, who gets there first?

There will be one winner and many losers in such a contest. Perhaps that itself explains why many men won't bother to enter.

Would a woman enter such a race, if the scenario was reversed? LOL

 

It's clear that yes, we were designed to be partnered together, no dispute there, but this is "not an argument".

 

The more I think about it, the more I realize that I'm not a MGTOW exactly. I still prefer the idea of being with to being without.

I'm just disillusioned by the unfavorable odds, not to mention the nausea induced by the constant presence of anything but, a rational woman.

Once one remains in such a state for years, alternative POVs bubble up almost out of necessity, to console the aching mind,

and to make "some other" sense out of life, that does not include partnering and love. I now realize that MGTOW is more of a young man's thing.

A choice to not pursue procreation/family/marriage and to live otherwise. Being in the "otherwise" state having not chosen it, is not MGTOW.

It's similar, as it looks the same from the outside, even has shared assessments of the "situation", but is not innately the same.

This realization has been made as a result of being challenged here on fdr, so, Thank You to my adversaries, who without which, I may not have

looked more closely at the what is.

Yes, I agree it would be harder for men to look for rational woman. It does not mean though, that people shouldn't be trying. If the scenario was flipped, I would still be on the lookout for rational men.

And yes, I know that feminism is causing much more damage to society than MGTOW, having way more supporters and even more extreme beliefs.  

But one is an advocate for men and another for woman. So they are still the same thing, just one is more extreme.

 

We are supposed to be partnered up wasn't supposed to be an argument, I just wanted to give more reason for you guys to not give up on finding rational woman. Not to mention, if more rational men decided to be single the future generation would be even worse.


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#22
Dylan Lawrence Moore

Dylan Lawrence Moore
  • 431 posts

Yes, I agree it would be harder for men to look for rational woman. It does not mean though, that people shouldn't be trying. If the scenario was flipped, I would still be on the lookout for rational men.

 

When grappling with this question, the answer that came to me was simply to become a very high-quality male, then simply demand rationality from females who want my attention. Let them compete and get better.

I think the thing that irks me the most about what I've seen from MGTOW (not that I've delved and significant time into research), is the helpless look at the landscape it provides. Women are like this and there's nothing to be done about it. Really? Get a heavier ballsack and see how women begin to behave differently around you.


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#23
inquirius

inquirius
  • 43 posts

I think the thing that irks me the most about what I've seen from MGTOW (not that I've delved and significant time into research), is the helpless look at the landscape it provides. Women are like this and there's nothing to be done about it. Really? Get a heavier ballsack and see how women begin to behave differently around you.

 

What is the point in discussing MGTOW if the only thing you're going to say is hyperbolic, ad hominem nonsense?  "Get a heavier ballsack." "Be a very high quality male."  That's exactly the kind of unthinking male posturing that makes engaging with ideas impossible and belies the opposite of a "heavy ballsack." 

 

Maybe if you stopped committing logical fallacies and actually engaged with what some of the reasonable MGTOW are saying, you'd be able to find some value in the philosophy.  


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#24
RichardY

RichardY
  • 292 posts

MGTOW hasn't something like this happened before, circa 793AD Lindisfarne?


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#25
GregMerwe

GregMerwe
  • 38 posts

I always saw mgtow as men not wanting to get married and men not needing to live their lives focused on having a girl friend in the traditional sense. Mgtow can still have relationships with woman, even sexual relationships. I don't see why a mgtow could not even have children. There is the idea that marriage contract brings stability. This is questionable. There are many single moms and that is even encouraged these days. Yet when a man becomes a single dad he is seen as the person who abandoned the child even though he is probably having to pay for it. I always said I am mgtow until I find a woman that can put up with me and will be a good mother, then I will have too many children. You might say the MGTOW will negatively affect my chances of finding that right woman. The whole you have to be in the game to get any results. Because MGTOW promotes a negative attitude towards women, which will eventually distort the man's view point. I don't think mgtow are necessarily bitter against women. I think a lot of men in the movement have been burned from divorce and that is why there is a lot of that bitterness towards women. I do think though that the general ideas behind mgtow resonates a lot of with males from all countries and backgrounds.

 

Japan is also facing a situation where men and women are not having children. I think this is a result of many factors not just mgtow. Technology has to play a part and that sex is easier to come by with online dating and prostitution is less taboo than it used to be. Women also played a part in driving the men away in these countries with increased standards and also they are working now, and they still require their men to earn more than them a lot of them time. Women want their men to go to the gym and have interesting hobbies. Which is perfectly reasonable. In the past men women didn't have those same expectations.


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#26
Caley McKibbin

Caley McKibbin
  • 34 posts
Women also played a part in driving the men away in these countries with increased standards and also they are working now, and they still require their men to earn more than them a lot of them time.

It doesn't help that nearly all men are fat and women don't like curves of any sort.  Even if standards were held constant that would still be the apparent outcome.  The quality of men has dropped remarkably.


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#27
Frosty

Frosty
  • 311 posts

From my own experience in this realm it seems unsustainable. In the same way that a division of labor creates more wealth it seems that the MGTOW lifestyle is the opposite. You have to do everything yourself, or at the very least accept that you can't do everything yourself and not even bother with certain activities like making your own food everyday, keeping your house clean, etc. 

 

Granted if you are rich, it might not be a problem, but for the already poor I think MGTOW compounds the problems that come with being poor. 

 

Does anyone else have some experience in this realm, or some thoughts on if MGTOW is something that actually works in the long term?

 

I've been a MGTOW for about 4 years and live alone. It's sustainable for me so far. We have a brilliant service in our area called Deliveroo which allows you to order food from a restaurant locally and have it shipped to you, so I order that about 3 times a week for food, you get restaurant quality food to your door for a delivery fee of about £2.50, otherwise there's takeaway delivery, and the other days I just eat things like microwave meals. I literally cannot be bothered to cook, no point. Most normal days there's a sandwich lady at work who visits and I buy salads/greens from her to stay a bit more healthy.

 

Long term you have to balance out the costs, there's savings if you share a home, rent and bills. But then also you're going to spend a lot on her, probably gifts while you're courting, an expensive wedding, and then the biggest of all costs are children. Most married couples have children and they're super expensive, this is where long term you make your bank. Children cost something in the region of £250,000 as a minimum to raise and it can be a lot more depending on things like if you go private school route and have to pay for tuition.

 

Living alone isn't a problem for anyone who isn't a total mong. Get on a career ladder and you can be earning more than enough cash for the bachelor lifestyle. And you get to spend all of your money on yourself. I'm saving for a mortgage at the moment and get to drop silly money into my savings account each month.


MGTOW hasn't something like this happened before, circa 793AD Lindisfarne?

 

It happened in Rome shortly before the fall of Rome. The native Roman population in the major cities had become rich through owning land during the aggressive expansion of the empire. Roman men became lazy fatcats who didn't care for wives or children, they were just seen as an unnecessary burden. The native birth rate plummeted way below replacement rate.

 

In the end they put in a bachelor tax for unmarried men and for married men without children, but the Roman men just paid the tax and went on with their lives. Interestingly it was the monks who wanted to remain celibate for religious reasons who turned over the laws.

 

It's also happening in a more advanced stage in Japan, men are checking out in massive numbers, they tend to be called Herbivore men or "grass eaters" who have little to no interest in long term relationships with women, their birthrate is way below replacement rate at the moment.


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#28
Dylan Lawrence Moore

Dylan Lawrence Moore
  • 431 posts

What is the point in discussing MGTOW if the only thing you're going to say is hyperbolic, ad hominem nonsense?  "Get a heavier ballsack." "Be a very high quality male."  That's exactly the kind of unthinking male posturing that makes engaging with ideas impossible and belies the opposite of a "heavy ballsack." 

 

Maybe if you stopped committing logical fallacies and actually engaged with what some of the reasonable MGTOW are saying, you'd be able to find some value in the philosophy.  

 

Yea, maybe. I'm married so I'm not that interested. Like I mentioned, I didn't delve very deep into MGTOW. I think the most I saw was from Sandman on Youtube. His videos are very interesting and informative, but I always ended the video feeling, "Ehh... I think I can do better than that. I think this doesn't have to apply if men can learn to behave differently." I adjusted my behavior accordingly and have since gotten married. If Sandman isn't one of the reasonable MGTOW, well, then shit.

 

Also, I'm curious as to how I should stop committing logical fallacies. The quote of me that you responded to literally starts with "I think the thing that irks me the most about what I've seen from MGTOW", which seems fairly obvious to me to be in the realms of personal preference and subjective experience. But by all means, refer to what I write as unthinking male posturing.


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#29
meetjoeblack

meetjoeblack
  • 70 posts

Wow, what a false dichotomy you've constructed. I am often confused by single men here on the FDR boards. They claim to be successful in other endeavors, and I find that hard to believe. The reason I find it hard to believe, is that when you've made the shift in mindset to find success and opportunities in every challenge (and that's what it takes to be successful), then how can you continue to claim victimhood and plead that the problem is nothing of your own making? Everyone successful in business, as far as I know, has had to face head-on the fact that your success or failure is the product of your own choosing and strategic activities to reach your goal. Why is relationship not viewed the same way? You want a quality woman, but they are hard to find? So what!? Go out and get her like all the money and business endeavors you wanted, but were hard to find. You did what needed to be done. I just don't get the disconnect.

 

Probably one of the most ridiculous posts on this forum ever. Its the internet. If a woman on this board jumped on and bragged about being conservative and good looking, would you presume she is being honest? Probably not. Felix Denis, Author of "How to Get RIch" described a million dollars as "the comfortably poor." He died single and I am pretty sure lost count of the amount of escorts and prostitutes he had fun with. It is a different world. You throw around the notion of "quality woman" the way most men do believing in the NAWALT. Whether or not that exists is something else all together. When you find your very version of this, do you call, "ALL IN," throwing away all reason, logic, and evidence?

 

The disconnect is a college campus 99% of which is leftist, pro choice and quick to let you know about it. The vast majority are running through an absurd amount of men and having children out of wedlock. Then, you got a series of men jumping on these women and raising the alpha male's children. The term quality gets tossed around a lot but very few men find this.

 

You can go out an approach an abundance of women. You will get laid. You will also come across a lot of disasters, a lot of not high quality women, women with a piece of paper that indicates education but, nothing of self awareness, self knowledge, and anything that insinuates free thought. If you want an omelet, you got to crack a few eggs. You come across a lot of women far from the sort to date exclusively never mind quality.

 

The most ironic part of those that preach how simple it is, they would be the first to e brag online about how it is, and the first to declare a woman a slut the second they try and approach and it magically doesn't go the way they would like. Suddenly, its not so easy anymore.


It doesn't help that nearly all men are fat and women don't like curves of any sort.  Even if standards were held constant that would still be the apparent outcome.  The quality of men has dropped remarkably.

 

No offense. I am a fair bit younger then you but, I noticed women "bulking" after the ripe age of 18. One girl I hooked up with in my teens has three children out of wedlock all from different men. I would not be caught dead around her at this point. Cute girl that now looks like she ate a house.

 

Anytime I have heard a woman say, "I can't find a quality man," it is as Sandman suggests. Its the top 1% of the male population. The question isn't to look at the men raised by a series of single moms, the moms on carousel 2.0, the ones that emasculated the father figure, and had him banished from the household. It is more shaming language, manipulation, and how can one extract resources from someone already damaged? I am not MGTOW. Not yet. Then again, the same disregard and repulsive behavior easily is enough to turn down that path. If I were mentally weak, I would have made that leap along time ago. I will say, I do not have no live in gf, wife, or woman in my home. I will date casually until finding the unicorn. I wont be dating single moms or women after carousel 2.0. I would rather be single and live out my life that way then be the utility of resource that gets used and dragged around like a puppet.

 

The quality of women have dropped and the increase of single mother victimhood is on the rise. If not for Stefan, my eyes would be closed and I would listen to the sob stories that women bombard men with. I think I have finally stopped caring and placed my own priorities f

 

I've been a MGTOW for about 4 years and live alone. It's sustainable for me so far. We have a brilliant service in our area called Deliveroo which allows you to order food from a restaurant locally and have it shipped to you, so I order that about 3 times a week for food, you get restaurant quality food to your door for a delivery fee of about £2.50, otherwise there's takeaway delivery, and the other days I just eat things like microwave meals. I literally cannot be bothered to cook, no point. Most normal days there's a sandwich lady at work who visits and I buy salads/greens from her to stay a bit more healthy.

 

Long term you have to balance out the costs, there's savings if you share a home, rent and bills. But then also you're going to spend a lot on her, probably gifts while you're courting, an expensive wedding, and then the biggest of all costs are children. Most married couples have children and they're super expensive, this is where long term you make your bank. Children cost something in the region of £250,000 as a minimum to raise and it can be a lot more depending on things like if you go private school route and have to pay for tuition.

 

Living alone isn't a problem for anyone who isn't a total mong. Get on a career ladder and you can be earning more than enough cash for the bachelor lifestyle. And you get to spend all of your money on yourself. I'm saving for a mortgage at the moment and get to drop silly money into my savings account each month.


 

 

 

Thanks for sharing. I fear the pull of MGTOW coming my way.

 

I followed the beaten path in the first stage of my life following puberty. I was the good little beta. I bought dinners. I paid for dates. I got nowhere. I was liked by girls but, I did not date too much in my early and middle teens. I got more comfortable in my own skin by my senior year. Still, i found pickup, I approached a lot, and I dated more. Part of approaching more is, you get rejected more. You see patterns, you see qualities in women you like, and other qualities you dislike.

 

I was not expecting what I would find. I found as a young boy, teen, a young man; I knew it was rare to find the sort of woman to date exclusively and even more so for the woman you marry and start a family with. I did not know how right I was until I started to approach. I have seen the disappearing acts, the shady behavior in women, the no contact only to initiate contact after jumping off another man. By that, I mean to say, a woman after getting dumped or a man begins to stop seeing her could be with child. She will lie, she will make up excuses, and give all sorts of fables about being busy. She was in fact jumping off other men, the men who would sleep with her but, wont date her. She then will start responding but, the years of approaching, of seeing female nature, a man begins to become numb to rejection, to lies, and deceit. If a woman stops texting or shows a lack of interest, it is because she is sleeping with other men.

 

Despite these shitty realizations and crummy dating experiences, I cannot shake my blasted genetics, and desire for a good woman. I still hold out that it exists. Unfortunately, it comes at a time when people are getting married, having children, and starting to live together. I am not saying that it is all bad. I have quite a bit of good experiences but, in all honesty, its been a disaster and a horrible time I wouldn't wish on anybody, even my worst of enemy. Then again, I ask you, what alternative is there? To wait? To vet a good woman? Most are on social media and tinder getting drunk on the power of validation and approval.

 

I am single. I continue to approach. I continue to swipe right at life. I still hold out that there is good out there but, there comes a point when, I will close the door on that chapter in my life, and begin pursuing other interests entirely. I intend to pursue some more but, there are things I will like to look into, things I want to explore like self awareness, self knowledge, my fears, my worries, and then, transcend the life i live into something awesome. I want to add value but I am constantly bombarded with leftist women, with very liberal women. Women who will prefer to have casual sex then do coffee and establish something more concrete. I got asked to replace a girl's dildo one night? Sounds like fun right? I have trouble trusting a woman who is quick to sex but drags her feet over coffee. Maybe I am old school.


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#30
thecurrentyear

thecurrentyear
  • 122 posts
Meetjoeblack, I want to make sure I understand your argument. Is it basically that quality of "women" (in general, but in particular any that you have ready contact with) has dropped below acceptable levels, but that the quality of men is most assuredly adequate? Just checking to see if I'm getting what you're saying. The comment was a little hard to follow.
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#31
meetjoeblack

meetjoeblack
  • 70 posts

Meetjoeblack, I want to make sure I understand your argument. Is it basically that quality of "women" (in general, but in particular any that you have ready contact with) has dropped below acceptable levels, but that the quality of men is most assuredly adequate? Just checking to see if I'm getting what you're saying. The comment was a little hard to follow.

 

The message was in response to your post;

 

Wow, what a false dichotomy you've constructed. I am often confused by single men here on the FDR boards. They claim to be successful in other endeavors, and I find that hard to believe. The reason I find it hard to believe, is that when you've made the shift in mindset to find success and opportunities in every challenge (and that's what it takes to be successful), then how can you continue to claim victimhood and plead that the problem is nothing of your own making? Everyone successful in business, as far as I know, has had to face head-on the fact that your success or failure is the product of your own choosing and strategic activities to reach your goal. Why is relationship not viewed the same way? You want a quality woman, but they are hard to find? So what!? Go out and get her like all the money and business endeavors you wanted, but were hard to find. You did what needed to be done. I just don't get the disconnect.

 

You make it sound like it is all rainbows and gum drops. Its a cake walk. We both know staking your claim in the business world is not easy. Why would it be any different for a woman who seeks self knowledge? Self-awareness? Thinks freely rather than a woman who subscribes to victimhood? Where is the disconnect with a man being single? There is either a lack of quality women or a man enjoys his time doing what it is he does instead of being house broken and paying bills after years of riding the carousel. If you are familiar with Tinder, this is the vehicle for serial monogamy, and women riding the carousel.

 

The same man preaching "quality woman" is settling down with the girl who was just riding the carousel. Not sure what you don't get. Men are realizing it is a bogus deal and while there are unicorns/NAWALTS, staking your claim and getting it wrong is life altering. Some are opting out entirely due to how high the stakes are and how little the reward is in reverse. You maybe older or just removed from the dating scheme in 2017. Regardless, I digress.


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#32
thecurrentyear

thecurrentyear
  • 122 posts
You use a lot of words to answer a simple yes or no question. I suspect it is a defense mechanism.
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#33
meetjoeblack

meetjoeblack
  • 70 posts

You use a lot of words to answer a simple yes or no question. I suspect it is a defense mechanism.

 

Thank you Freud with an awesome analysis. That isn't an argument. You just outed yourself as a keyboard warrior. You talked absolute nonsense and ruined what little credibility you have.

 

The only correct thing you said was that you are confused. Your response or lack there of one shows confusion. Guaranteed, if this man were in a bar or club, forced into the position to approach, what nonsense he is promoting here would be debunked in minutes, and he would be calling women sluts lol

 

Finding a quality woman is difficult the same way going into the free market and winning is difficult. If were easy, everyone would be doing it.

 

 

In response to OP, I think the lifestyle is sustainable. I am not certain but, I suspect my barber is a MGTOW. I pick up on tidbits that he will say that make me suspect he is or at least has been exposed to MGTOW. He is a business owner. He values traditionalism but, sees a lack there of it. He has money, is not married, has no kids, and I am doubtful of any gf. I am pretty sure he has no live in significant other. It is sustainable but, most men are not committed.

 

I can only share my own experience with you. With approaching numerous girls, certain things are clear, and redundant patterns present themselves far too often to go unnoticed. For instance, "I have a bf" is just a quick indication of disinterest whereas, the same girl would not even mention a significant other if interested. In either event, she will cheat with the new guy or back burner him in the event her relationship goes south. If a woman stops texting, does not initiate, one word answers, she is sleeping with some other men. The same woman will make up excuses, she will lie, she will say she was busy, blame school or work. If you play dick tracy for whatever reason, she will be caught in a lie, and the truth will come out that she slept with an ex or some other guy and got dropped.

 

I wont paint a pretty picture. There still are good women out there but, it is so few and far between. Most men are between a rock and a hard place. If you find a good woman, your beta self wants to provide, marry, give her children, and even at the cost of your own self preservation. For better or worse, men continue to put the barrel of a loaded gun to their head, and not even blink. Today, I was approached by a pretty woman. Sure enough, after a little bit of prying, turns out, she is a single mom, and therefore, not a reliable option. This is common be it online or IRL.

 

Be my guest. Approach a dozen women. How did that go? If you got any numbers, does she reciprocate? Is she dedicated to self-knowledge? Self-awareness? Reason and evidence? Many will take coffee or dinner but, are okay sleeping around with some guy that wont buy them the ring? I over heard a conversation of women at the gym. One was complaining about "dishonest men," how they wont just say they don't want children earlier on. The aftermath is a pity party between her and her girl friend rather than discussing the reality that she is squandering her youth with an idiot who wont commit.


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