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The morality of human shields and dealing with hostile borders

human shields terror israel palestine gaza larken rose self defense

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131 replies to this topic
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#2
labmath2

labmath2
  • 239 posts

I am certainly no history or foreign policy expert, but isn't Israel now occupying what used to be Palestinian territory? 


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"Today Americans would be outraged if U.N. troops entered Los Angeles to restore order; tomorrow they will be grateful! This is especially true if they were told there was an outside threat from beyond whether real or promulgated, that threatened our very existence. It is then that all peoples of the world will pledge with world leaders to deliver them from this evil. The one thing every man fears is the unknown. When presented with this scenario, individual rights will be willingly relinquished for the guarantee of their well being granted to them by their world government." - Henry Kissinger


#3
Slavik

Slavik
  • 162 posts

I am certainly no history or foreign policy expert, but isn't Israel now occupying what used to be Palestinian territory? 

Isnt just about every country in one shape or form is occupying that which used to be another territory?  And what is the point of the question?  By that I mean this, fact-Israelis are living on a territory that used to be in large held by some other arbitrary entity which claimed it before.  Do you have a conclusion to this fact?  What is your proposition from stating this fact ?


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#4
LanceD

LanceD
  • 228 posts
You can't look to this situation now and judge whether or not Israel is defending itself. In order to make a proper moral judgment you have to go back to the beginning. To get back to the beginning is a very tangled string to unwind and it's a very difficult situation to really unravel. So maybe instead we just look at the current situation. Palestine is a cage, and not in the figurative sense that western nations are cages. It literally is a cage surrounded by walls built by neighbors. They are also under constant economic sanctions. So the people who are supposedly the aggressors live in a giant prison they can't cross physically and they can't trade across. So imagine yourself being born into a prison full of other people who were also born there. Exactly why the generations that came before you were put in said prison is unclear. The only thing we know for sure is that you are there because you were born there, and this applies to everyone else who is also in this prison. Do you think you may try and get out of this prison? And if you did when you were inevitably met by the guards throwing you back inside would you consider violent action to escape? When you committed said violent actions to escape would you describe the prison guards as acting in self defense when they kill you?
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We're not responsible for how we're born, but we are responsible for how we die.

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#6
Agalloch

Agalloch
  • 830 posts

"Eyal, you've gone full retard"

 

He's not wrong...


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#7
Slavik

Slavik
  • 162 posts

I have seen the debate you have had with Larkin, he advocates assassinations in your scenarios, but then I remember Israelis assassinating the heads of  terror groups, and the whole world was up in arms about the very fact.  What I am confused about, is why it all seems so one sided?  Am I completely against Israel launching attacks and in the process killing innocent, no shit I am.  But here is a kicker, Iam also against Palestinians killing innocent Israelis and launching endless mortar and rocket attacks. Why is it when it comes to the conflict, people always choose a side?  There are no excuses for the death of the innocent on either side, people stop being so thick skulled will you?


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#9
Slavik

Slavik
  • 162 posts

1) I was not talking about assassinations against those on the ground, I was talking about leaders of the terrorist groups (they do not use human shields, since they themselves do not go to fight)

 

2) Ok let me state that using human shields is despicable and morally reprehensible, and the person who uses a human shield is responsible for the death of the person he used as a shield.  This fact still doesnt take away from innocent dying when Israel launches rockets or goes in to the territory.  It is simply impossible to claim that all innocent who died as the result, were all used as human shields.  

 

3) By not picking sides, I am asking for all people to stop picking sides, there is sadly no 1 absolutely innocent side here.  By this I mean, on all sides absolutely innocent people as well have died though this conflict not just guilty, and I am not going to blindly defend one side.  

 

No, I do not have a clue, I dont think I was proposing one either. 


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#11
J-William

J-William
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I feel like I should stay out of this... but what the hell.

 

You do know that this "human shield" thing is just propaganda, right?

 

What's the difference between "human shields" and the Israeli state is recklessly bombing a civilian population? How would you tell the difference between the two?

 

Also, you're getting deep into the weeds with trying to call what the Israeli state does "self defense". first off it's not a person and so cannot practice "self defense"... and anyway if any of this was about "self defense" then they would have located Israel in Arizona, not the middle east where they continually get into wars with everyone.


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#13
labmath2

labmath2
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Isnt just about every country in one shape or form is occupying that which used to be another territory?  And what is the point of the question?  By that I mean this, fact-Israelis are living on a territory that used to be in large held by some other arbitrary entity which claimed it before.  Do you have a conclusion to this fact?  What is your proposition from stating this fact ?

I ask the question because self defense argument requires we have full understanding of how the situation escalated to its current state. Maybe Israel is acting in self defense, or maybe they initiated and all these is just fallout of that initial initiation of violence. I do not know so i was hoping someone with a little more knowledge of the situation could enlighten us.


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"Today Americans would be outraged if U.N. troops entered Los Angeles to restore order; tomorrow they will be grateful! This is especially true if they were told there was an outside threat from beyond whether real or promulgated, that threatened our very existence. It is then that all peoples of the world will pledge with world leaders to deliver them from this evil. The one thing every man fears is the unknown. When presented with this scenario, individual rights will be willingly relinquished for the guarantee of their well being granted to them by their world government." - Henry Kissinger


#14
Slavik

Slavik
  • 162 posts

I ask the question because self defense argument requires we have full understanding of how the situation escalated to its current state. Maybe Israel is acting in self defense, or maybe they initiated and all these is just fallout of that initial initiation of violence. I do not know so i was hoping someone with a little more knowledge of the situation could enlighten us.

First problem, no such thing as countries, right?  Which means no one country can defend itself, its the people who do so.  Following the logic that a country is a concept just like a forest, we look at the "trees"  So the question then becomes, are Israelis engaged in self defense?  What does the establishment of the said country has to do with the fact that if there was an offense, those who are the offenders no longer alive, and are not even targeted.  And this is why I countered your question, because if you go by countries and not by people, you will end up justifying Mexicans killing Americans, you will end up justifying terrorist attacks that were carried out in Moscow metro and so on.


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#15
labmath2

labmath2
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First problem, no such thing as countries, right?  Which means no one country can defend itself, its the people who do so.  Following the logic that a country is a concept just like a forest, we look at the "trees"  So the question then becomes, are Israelis engaged in self defense?  What does the establishment of the said country has to do with the fact that if there was an offense, those who are the offenders no longer alive, and are not even targeted.  And this is why I countered your question, because if you go by countries and not by people, you will end up justifying Mexicans killing Americans, you will end up justifying terrorist attacks that were carried out in Moscow metro and so on.

Going by people does not make this situation any easier to understand, in fact it only makes it harder. How many people can we actually point to as initiators of force? I am sure if you ask members of Hamas and Israel's military they will all claim to be acting in self defense/defense of others. The second part is what constitutes defense? At what point does defense become offense?


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"Today Americans would be outraged if U.N. troops entered Los Angeles to restore order; tomorrow they will be grateful! This is especially true if they were told there was an outside threat from beyond whether real or promulgated, that threatened our very existence. It is then that all peoples of the world will pledge with world leaders to deliver them from this evil. The one thing every man fears is the unknown. When presented with this scenario, individual rights will be willingly relinquished for the guarantee of their well being granted to them by their world government." - Henry Kissinger


#16
Slavik

Slavik
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Going by people does not make this situation any easier to understand, in fact it only makes it harder. How many people can we actually point to as initiators of force? I am sure if you ask members of Hamas and Israel's military they will all claim to be acting in self defense/defense of others. The second part is what constitutes defense? At what point does defense become offense?

I never claimed that going by people will make it easier, but going by an abstract concept called country, you will end nowhere, since we all know that countries do not really exist.  This is why I asked my question in the very beginning. 


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#17
Heam

Heam
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Note, I realize this is a topic about human shields in general, and not necessarily a discussion about Palestine/Israel, but as the OP links to content dealing with that particular conflict, I illustrate my point using the same conflict as an example.

 

This issue of "human shields" is Israeli propaganda and if we dissect it factually and logically, I think it is easy to come to this conclusion. The idea of "human shields" thrives on the perception that is purported by Israel and its Western sycophants that Palestinians and Muslims in general value human life less than do Israelis. Palestinians are suicidal crazies while Israelis are first world loving peaceniks thrown into war against their will.

 

The act of taking a "human shield" would necessitate that a Palestinian militiaman, at gunpoint, force civilians to absorb the shocks of Israeli bullets and bombs. In other words, said militiaman would have to hold hostage an entire population of Palestinians at all times of the day in order to force them to the front lines whenever an Israeli strike is imminent. This, from a logistical standpoint, is impossible. Palestinian society has multiple militias (a "free market" of militias, if you will). Any one militia that decided it was to take hostage the entire Palestinian population to stand on rooftops while Israel bombs targets from the sky would quickly find itself at odds with the militias who would decide to defend the local population. Furthermore there is no great power disparity between Palestinian militias and the local population. The maximum capacity of any force Palestinians can field is restricted mostly to RPG's and Kalashnikov rifle derivatives and these are relatively easy to obtain. Large tribal factions in Gaza are, ironically, better equipped than most Islamist militias in active conflict with Israel.

 

I also want people to try and understand the ridiculous nature of the claim of "human shields" by looking at the logistics of Gaza. It is an enclave of about 1.8 million and one of the most densely populated places on the planet. You can check this link for a comparison of the details:

 

http://www.sbs.com.a...es-around-world

 

It has a population growth rate of about 2.8% per annum, which is the 13th fastest in the world. Gaza is not a state and it has no army. It has militias whose members are recruited from the fabric of a society which has been under arbitrary Israeli authority since at least 1967 and under arbitrary Egyptian authority before that. Israel levels a siege on the territory which it has kept up since 2006. Before that, it fielded a large occupation army in order to police the population of Gaza but found the area largely uncontrollable via infantry because it is so densely packed.

 

There is very little economy to speak of. 40% of the population is officially unemployed. Of those who are employed, only half are in the private sector. This is a direct result of the Israeli siege which prevents supplies from entering the enclave. Where goods do not pass, rockets and bombs do apparently. Furthermore, UN fact finding missions have concluded that Israel does intentionally target economic hubs such as Gaza's sole airport which has been closed since 2001, factories, bridges, and roads.

 

http://en.wikipedia....e_Gaza_Conflict

 

So while Israel no longer fields infantry in Gaza because of its logistical impossibility, it does control what enters and leaves the enclave. It is often described as the largest open air prison on the planet. ( http://truth-out.org...open-air-prison ) Restricting the freedom of movement of people and materials into Gaza is an act of violence and so the idea that Israel is somehow minding its own business while suddenly receiving a barrage of rockets for its kindness is yet another line out of Defending Israel for Dummies ®.

 

Israel frequently bombs Gaza, sometimes with more intensity than others, and because the area is so densely packed and due to what can only be chalked up as a combination of egregious incompetence and a lack of regard for Palestinian life, it mostly kills people who are not affiliated with the militias it is claiming to attack. My position on Israeli violence is that it does not care about distinguishing between militia-affiliated and non-militia Gazans. If it cared about the lives of Gazans, it wouldn't be inflicting an economic siege for 7 years running, nor would it have fielded an occupation force, nor would it continue inflicting war after war on the people there knowing well it does not possess the capacity to prevent civilian deaths. It also would not dump chemical weapons on hospitals, schools, refugee camps, and target civilian infrastructure.

 

Hamas is still around even after more than a decade of Israel trying to destroy it. Islamic Jihad, Aqsa Brigades, and every other bottle rocket militia with 5 lb warhead tips pointed at Israel remain as strong as ever despite the IV drip of military steroids financed by US taxpayers remaining stuck up the IDF's butt at all times. Why does Israel continue the same strategy it has used for years if it cares so much about civilian life?

 

Israel has to sell the carnage it inflicts to the tax donkeys in the West by claiming they are fighting an intractable and opaque fanatic enemy who intentionally puts people in harm's way. The illogic they are selling is that Hamas holds civilian hostages in places where their weapons' caches are located so as to deter an Israeli strike because, as the story goes, it is exploiting the Israeli weakness of compassion for the innocent in order to continue its eternal war against the state of Israel and finish what Hitler started.

 

Yet, if this strategy is already known to everybody with a Time magazine subscription, and it is also understood that Israel is going to bomb weapons caches whether civilians are there or not, then why would you place weapons in an area with civilians in the first place? Wouldn't that immediately be a red flag to Israeli military intelligence that it's where you put your weapons? Furthermore, is there a place in overpopulated Gaza where there are no civilians? Also, if civilians knew that they were being used as hostages would there not be some mass civil movement in Gaza to prevent themselves from becoming pawns in a game of demonic Chinese Checkers between Hamas and Israel? 

 

There are so many obvious questions that can be asked which poke holes in this absolutely idiotic propaganda schtick put on by Israeli shills that we actually have to start looking internally at ourselves to understand why these lines even register with us. For the thinking person, and for the person who examines the evidence of past Israeli aggression, the fact is obvious that Israel does not care about civilian life, and that it even takes great pleasure in inflicting as much suffering on Gaza as it possibly can before Bush, Obama, or whatever oligarch hand puppet at the mantle of the US tax farm has to take the punch bowl away. 


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#18
itsmassive

itsmassive
  • 112 posts

I love what you wrote. I never thought of Gaza as an open air prison before, but you're right.

 

I've heard people basically say this:

 

"Look, I know no one should ever be killed, but Israel tried to have a cease fire and Hamas didn't care. Israel just defended itself and Palestinians purposely huddled their children in there and the Palestinians love having dead children so they can show it to the media and make Israel look bad" 

 

This is a dangerous belief many people have. I think many people see the Palestinians as "Just arabs who are immature and love killing" which is not at all true. That sounds like a more accurate description of Israel.  

 

I understand your argument about how Gaza basically has a free market militia. But people argue that the children are so young, that that's why they aren't aware enough. They aren't being kidnapped, they are just obeying adults. (I don't believe this is even happening)

 

Anyways, great post, thanks!


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#19
Heam

Heam
  • 67 posts

I love what you wrote. I never thought of Gaza as an open air prison before, but you're right.

 

I've heard people basically say this:

 

"Look, I know no one should ever be killed, but Israel tried to have a cease fire and Hamas didn't care. Israel just defended itself and Palestinians purposely huddled their children in there and the Palestinians love having dead children so they can show it to the media and make Israel look bad" 

 

This is a dangerous belief many people have. I think many people see the Palestinians as "Just arabs who are immature and love killing" which is not at all true. That sounds like a more accurate description of Israel.  

 

I understand your argument about how Gaza basically has a free market militia. But people argue that the children are so young, that that's why they aren't aware enough. They aren't being kidnapped, they are just obeying adults. (I don't believe this is even happening)

 

Anyways, great post, thanks!

 

The idea that Palestinians are obsessed with trumpeting their suffering to the media is projection from Israeli shills. Palestinian deaths get comparatively little coverage in Western media.


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#20
labmath2

labmath2
  • 239 posts

If some one starts shooting in the middle of a crowd and is attempting to kill you, is it moral on your part to fire at him knowing you are very likely to hit one of the bystanders?

I do not think anyone would say the shooter is excused for hiding in a crowd, but i think we can all agree the shooter is not a model of morality. The important part is your reaction. If you do fire into the crowd and kill 3 others in addition to the shooter, should there be consequences to you by the family members of the innocent bystanders?


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"Today Americans would be outraged if U.N. troops entered Los Angeles to restore order; tomorrow they will be grateful! This is especially true if they were told there was an outside threat from beyond whether real or promulgated, that threatened our very existence. It is then that all peoples of the world will pledge with world leaders to deliver them from this evil. The one thing every man fears is the unknown. When presented with this scenario, individual rights will be willingly relinquished for the guarantee of their well being granted to them by their world government." - Henry Kissinger


#21
SamuelS

SamuelS
  • 199 posts

human shields don't die if you don't launch munitions at them


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#23
Wesley

Wesley

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Experience shows that striking back hard makes terror groups stop their attacks, they lose the support of the people, they lose their lives, weapons, it's ugly but it's working.

I am pretty sure the opposite of this is true.

 

I send you to Robert Pape's work on terrorism, and especially suicide terrorism (which is 10x more deadly on average).

 

There is a massive correlation between terror attacks and suicide terror attacks and foreign occupation.

 

If the foreign occupation stops, then the terror stops.

 

He is by far the biggest scholar on the topic and has done a lot of work and data mining in order to justify his claims.

 

If the topic is of interest to you, he has a few books published.


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#25
Wesley

Wesley

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End of 2001 / Beginning of 2002, we at Israel have experienced a crazy wave of terror, exploding buses, restaurants, at least once or twice a day a suicide bomber would blow up in Israel. For more than a month, people didn't leave their homes besides to work and back. It completely stopped the israeli society. People got very angry, and shifted very much to the the right, voting Sharon.

 

Before that wave of terror, most Israelis viewed Sharon as a fanatic right wing war loving sociopath. When faced with deadly terror on a daily basis, people understood that such a person is what's needed. They voted, he got in, and delivered. Days after getting in office, he launched Operation Defensive Shield which lasted 40 days. The terror attacks on Israel stopped completely very few days after it began, and the Israeli society returned to their normal day to day life very fast.

 

I was there, I remember very good!

 

 

They want the entire country, they consider all of Israel to be occupied territory. They want us to live under Sharia law, or better, drink the water of the sea.

 

What.. you think I'm exaggerating? think I'm wrong? Take the t-shirt challenge ^ I posted here and see what it's like to live among this culture you're suggesting that I live with.

Hmmm, maybe you misunderstood my post, so I will attempt to make it clearer.

 

I was not saying that any one society is better than the other.

 

Personally, I want to be no where near that part of the world right now.

 

 

What I was saying is that there is a man, whose name is Robert Pape, who has compiled data on every single suicide terror attack in modern history and has compiled the data for your easy consumption in the form of a presentation on YouTube, book, or several other media you may enjoy. This data only takes a simple google search and a little time to access.

 

I was showing you facts which contradict one of your claims, which the facts of every suicide terror attack in history is a much better sample size than your anecdotes, no matter how well you may remember them or how accurate they may be.

 

You are free to continue with emotional argumentation about t-shirts, but that only reveals that this thread is not about the facts of the situation.

 

However, you could choose to look into some of the information, see where the contradictions may be, come up with some sort of refutation or otherwise intergrate the new data into your theory.

 

If that were to happen, I would be happy to talk with you further about the topic.

 

 

The information was quite shocking when I read it a couple years ago, and I think it is a very valuable topic to actually understand what the causes are, such that we can be sure that the steps we are taking to solve the problem actually help rather than aggravate the situation.

 

 

I hope that I was able to make my information more clear in this post.


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#26
labmath2

labmath2
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Waleed, and everyone else who claims that the Israelis are a more barbaric culture.. I offer a challenge!

 

1) I'll walk a whole day week month in Tel Aviv with a t-shirt that says "Proud Muslim" in Arabic.

2) You'll walk a whole day in Gaza with a shirt that says "Proud Jew" in Hebrew.

 

May i ask why you think people think Israelis are more barbaric? And what do you think the challenge will accomplish? How much of the history of what happened and is currently happening are you familiar with and what is your take on the situation?

Just to clarify, i do not think anyone think Israelis are completely responsible for the situation, neither do people think Hamas is a righteous organization. 


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"Today Americans would be outraged if U.N. troops entered Los Angeles to restore order; tomorrow they will be grateful! This is especially true if they were told there was an outside threat from beyond whether real or promulgated, that threatened our very existence. It is then that all peoples of the world will pledge with world leaders to deliver them from this evil. The one thing every man fears is the unknown. When presented with this scenario, individual rights will be willingly relinquished for the guarantee of their well being granted to them by their world government." - Henry Kissinger


#27
J-William

J-William
  • 1282 posts

If the topic is of interest to you, he has a few books published.

 

I'm pretty sure that the topic is of no interest to the OP... as he has clearly demonstrated that he's not here for the reason and evidence, but more here for some sort of emotional thing to do with his religion.

 

Edit: oh I see you noticed that too...  :turned:  silly me 

 

well anyhow, lovely weather we're having in this thread... seeing as it's not raining bombs in here  :thumbsup:


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Please check out my game "Hungry Blob", it's a pleasant time-waster. https://itunes.apple...d923740806?mt=8    :thanks:

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#29
AustinJames

AustinJames
  • 261 posts

Let us reduce the human shield argument to three men in a room.  Tom has a grudge against Jerry.  Tom pulls out a gun and points it at Jerry. Jerry grabs Bill and holds him between himself and Tom, begging Tom to reason with him, and believing Tom will not kill an innocent person.  Tom shoots and kills Bill, then shoots and kills Tom.  Who is responsible for Bill's death?  Was it immoral for Jerry to involve Bill in an attempt to save himself?

 

If the point of this thread is to deduce the moral content of taking a human shield, this scenario should do the trick.  If you prove it is immoral/moral/amoral to take a human shield, we can extend that principle to the Israel/Palestine situation, and introduce other variables; but let's not get ahead of ourselves.  First, arguments and proofs to define the underlying principle.


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#30
Wesley

Wesley

    Self-Excavator

  • 1412 posts

You don't have to be a genius or study a 100 years research on suicide bombers to know that retaliating with great force puts an end to the support terrorist organizations get. You have dodged every argument I made so far.

 

Calling my challenge an "emotional argument" is not an argument. In fact, the challenge goes to test the theory proposed by others, so it's very much in place.

Apparently you do, because as I said earlier, your claim is the exact opposite of the available evidence, which is why I offered up the evidence from said expert and told you how to easily find it.

 

I have not dodged any arguments. I have pointed out a single piece of innaccurate information and told you where to find evidence to the contrary.

 

That may have been a good argument for others in this thread, I do not know. I only know that it had nothing to do with the statement to which I provided evidence to its falsehood, therefore using the argument against my argument when they were not related at all is rather silly to say the least.

 

I think I am getting a clearer picture of the point of this thread, so I will dismiss myself from further discussion and move on to other things.

 

For anyone who is actually curious as to the topic of the causes of suicide terrorism now has the resources to be able to find the facts on the issue.


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#32
SamuelS

SamuelS
  • 199 posts

"Human shields don't die if you don't defend yourself." - Very interesting philosophy.

nice strawman. one needn't drop bombs on populated areas to defend oneself...bombs for self defense, that's rich.


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#34
J-William

J-William
  • 1282 posts

 

J-William,

 

"he has clearly demonstrated that he's not here for the reason and evidence"

Said the man who posted baseless accusations and outright lies.

 

This is the Palestinian tactic - lie lie lie in hopes that the other side's position will not be heard and understood.

Lie lie lie in hopes that something will stick. Very barbaric even for a conversation.

 

Yes... lies and I'm a Palestinian and... what?

 

I'm sorry that you are wasting the valuable time of myself and people on this board with your shenanigans.

 

I'm sure it must rub you the wrong way to see so many people turning against Israel. But it's awfully hard to look at the facts and continue supporting the wholesale slaughter of a caged population. I mean it was pretty bad when the Nazis did it. I seem to recall there were trials after all that. I guess Netanyahu is banking on western governments not considering Palestinians people while he's still alive.

 

If I were a young man in Gaza who saw his family torn apart by Israeli bombs I would be on my way to the nearest place I could find a gun to kill as many IDF members as I could. The fact you don't see more is a testament to how peaceful the Palestinians are. Not terribly "barbaric" of them to sift through the rubble of their houses and go to the hospital to identify their dead children without once picking up a weapon to seek revenge.

 

and if I were in Israel I would move to somewhere else because I'd rather not be around people who hate me. 

 

I'll say it again; if Israel were in Arizona they would have no problem with anybody. It's merely crazy religious BS that makes any of this possible. You are not going to solve the violence with abstract theorizing about how many human shields can dance on the head of a pin.


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Please check out my game "Hungry Blob", it's a pleasant time-waster. https://itunes.apple...d923740806?mt=8    :thanks:

“Good men don’t serve in the army.  Good iron doesn’t get turned into nails.”- Chinese saying

 
 

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Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: human shields, terror, israel, palestine, gaza, larken rose, self defense