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The Hunger Games


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19 replies to this topic

#1
Danny Rebelo

Danny Rebelo
  • 164 posts

[font=" 'Arial','sans-serif'; color: black; font-size: 10pt"]

[font=" 'Arial','sans-serif'; color: black; font-size: 10pt"]I would like to suggest that Stef produce a show on the recent Hunger Games movie that came out. [/font]

[font=" 'Arial','sans-serif'; color: black; font-size: 10pt"]It seems like an excellent book\movie to do a show on because of the violent use of children as a mechanism for controlling a population (see public schools and national debt for today's examples). Another interesting thing about this movie is how a government is seen as the mechanism of suffering for people.[/font]

[font=" 'Arial','sans-serif'; color: black; font-size: 10pt"]The Hunger Games seems to be a very thought provoking and captivating movie for many people and shining some philosophy on it might be worth the time and effort.[/font]

[font=" 'Arial','sans-serif'; color: black; font-size: 10pt"]I have yet to read the book myself, but I will be listening to the audiobook version to get caught up with others that are in the know.[/font]

 

[/font]

 


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All truths are easy to understand once they are discovered; the point is to discover them.

Galileo Galilei

#2
Danny Rebelo

Danny Rebelo
  • 164 posts

Another interesting thing about this movie is the use of a strong female character. This has lead to a lot of interest for the Hunger Games by women despite the violence and politics invovled.


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All truths are easy to understand once they are discovered; the point is to discover them.

Galileo Galilei

#3
Wrong Opinion

Wrong Opinion
  • 137 posts

I've read the entire trilogy and it is absolutely fantastic. If pressed I might write a review/essay on it.


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#4
Stefan Molyneux

Stefan Molyneux
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 I did just watch the movie, and I have to say – Marxism and clichés appear to be indestructible...


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#5
Wrong Opinion

Wrong Opinion
  • 137 posts

Is that so? I was planning on watching it tomorrow. Do you think it's worth it? 


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#6
simonides

simonides
  • 135 posts

I am disgusted that this is marketed as a young adult book series. I was disgusted with myself in that I enjoyed it enough to read the entire trilogy. Any non-violent parent should seriously question allowing any kid under high school age to read this. And even then, though I think they are at the age to make their own decisions, I would not go out and encourage them to read it. It's disgustingly violent and full of crapcan Marxist cliches, as Stef points out. 


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"Why should witlesse man so much misweene that nothing is but that which he hath seen?"


#7
Wrong Opinion

Wrong Opinion
  • 137 posts

My lack of famliarity with Marxist cliches spared me some pain reading the trilogy.

I rather enjoyed the idea of the very same children who were used by the State to oppress that people being the tool that destroys it. 

The violence I expected. Sure, it was shocking and disgusting, but that's the story right? I didn't see anywhere in the books where it was glorified. It was always mourned, there was, at least I think, a constant theme of "Why does it have to be this way? Can't there be a non-violent way? Look at all the destruction and heartache that violence brings."

 

The big gripes I have are some of the characters are kind of flat, and they have really goofy names. I don't mind variations on existing names, or made up names, but some of them were just too obvious. There's a character named Wiress that comes from District 3 where all the electronics are manufactured. I mean come on, really? The author had the cleverness to give the main character a name that wasn't outrageous but also descriptive. Why not the other characters too?

Oh well. I guess you can't be a perfect novelist unless your name begins with Ayn. 


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#8
simonides

simonides
  • 135 posts

The violence I expected. Sure, it was shocking and disgusting, but that's the story right? I didn't see anywhere in the books where it was glorified. It was always mourned, there was, at least I think, a constant theme of "Why does it have to be this way? Can't there be a non-violent way? Look at all the destruction and heartache that violence brings."

..........

Oh well. I guess you can't be a perfect novelist unless your name begins with Ayn. 

You make a good point. She did have characters throughout the trilogy arguing for a non-violent approach, but ultimately they all get behind the violent revolution meme one way or another. I don't think it was nuanced enough that youths of today's culture would take away the message "Look at the horrible effects of violence." I mean, they made it into an action movie--the violence is inherently entertaining, and even characters who disagree with the violence become emotionally involved and act without thinking throughout. Kids like the fact that Katniss only learned bow skills to hunt, but then becomes a bad-ass killer with them, even if she regrets her actions. But you are right, the author did do an okay job tempering the violence with the characters' own disgust of it.

And on perfect novelists, let's not get carried away here. Rand is an excellent writer, storyteller, but IMO doesn't hold a candle to the prose quality of George Eliot, or the Great Gatsby or Cormac McCarthy or even translations of Italo Calvino. Whoever wrote the God of Atheists isn't half bad, either! But I guess I'm a bit of a snob when it comes to fiction. 


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"Why should witlesse man so much misweene that nothing is but that which he hath seen?"


#9
Danny Rebelo

Danny Rebelo
  • 164 posts

 I did just watch the movie, and I have to say – Marxism and clichés appear to be indestructible...

 

I totally did not expect this. Now I am even
more intrigued!

 


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All truths are easy to understand once they are discovered; the point is to discover them.

Galileo Galilei

#10
ribuck

ribuck
  • 1366 posts

It's disgustingly violent and full of crapcan Marxist cliches, as Stef points out.

What?

It's disgustingly violent, yes. But the violence is entirely, 100%, imposed by the state.

Katniss comes across as a resourceful youngster doing the best she can to survive in a disfunctional society. A lot of young people are going to identify with this.

Katniss and the other 23 youngsters are victims of the state; they are but slaves sacrificed by the state as a way to keep the population of the regions under control, productive, and in a constant state of fear.


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#11
eeik

eeik
  • 19 posts


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_The_Hunger_Games_characters

Seneca Crane — The Head Gamemaker during the 74th Hunger Games. He is executed because he lets both Katniss and Peeta live. The book gives no details; in the movie Crane, escorted by Peacekeepers, is locked in an opulent room containing only an elegant bowl of fresh Nightlock berries for him to consume. In the second book, Katniss effectively both impresses and shocks (causing some to faint) the Gamemakers by using the paint from Peeta's portrait of Rue, a practice dummy strung from the rafters of the gymnasium with a hangman's noose, and the name "Seneca Crane" as a warning and epitaph. He is played by Wes Bentley in the movie version of The Hunger Games.

Referencing the above character, when I watched the movie, I left the film with somewhat of an odd unresolved question in my mind which I wanted to float past the board this evening. Seneca was, as noted above, escorted by "Peacekeepers" (I love the irony there) to a room in order to consume fresh Nightlock. This struck me as profoundly meaningful here for him to be essentially offered the option to end his own life but not expressly instructed to end it or informed of any alternatives if he chose not to do so. When looking at the citizens of the Capitol and their interactions with each other and with the Peacekeepers, there was no moneyed class slave on slave violence to speak of throughout the entire film (unless I missed it). The violence was lower class slave on slave throughout the games and moneyed class Peacekeepers on lower class district citizens.

My curiosity here is this ...


  • If Seneca was raised in the Capitol and was as indoctrinated into the culture as deeply as it seemed he and the rest of the Capitol citizenry was, does it then follow that a desire to resist the offer to end his own life would be completely unfathomable?
  • Has this in some perverted sort of way painted a picture of a society that has indeed bred the violence out of its own moneyed class citizenry?
  • Does this sound like the direction of modern day western world to some degree already as the knowledge of assured destruction if going against the thugs of the state is so blatantly apparent?
  • Was the shame and ostracism stemming from his transgressions against the Hunger Games organization so heinous that he himself may have in fact internalized the desire of the group to want to end his own life voluntarily in this way because of shame as opposed to the threat of a Peacekeeper actually murdering him directly?
  • Stef has podcasted before about the power of social ostracism and I wonder if in the case of Seneca here, the fear of dying alone shunned from the society outweighs the desire to live and why, if the humanity has been so bred out of the citizenry then why did he feel empathy at all to even let Katniss and Peeta live in the first place?

Did anyone else have thoughts along these lines at all and come to any sort of additional insight to build upon mine? Personally, I found it odd that this was the tiny nugget that stuck out in my mind to churn on after watching the film and when sharing this curiosity with someone else, the only response I got was ... "no, they would have just killed him if he didn’t eat the Nightlock, what are you talking about?" :)

 


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#12
MrCapitalism

MrCapitalism
  • 1493 posts

the only response I got was ... "no, they would have just killed him if he didn’t eat the Nightlock, what are you talking about?" :)

 

This would be my response as well.... to expand on it, I might put it this way:

The hunger games themselves are a ritual which attempts to minimize a very difficult and dangerous situation built upon a reluctant agreement between the oppressor and the victims.

Seneca Crane was in charge of this event, and failed to conduct it properly,

 

Thus, to avoid the difficult and violent decision to use outright violence to murder him, we was given the reluctant choice to "do the dirty work for them," just like the children kill eachother instead of the totalitarian government killing everybody.


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#13
MrCapitalism

MrCapitalism
  • 1493 posts

So everything I've seen in 10 minutes of internet searching about the author's past makes a point that her father was in the Air Force (he served in Vietnam).

Q: You weave action, adventure, mythology, sci-fi, romance, and philosophy throughout The Hunger Games. What influenced the creation of The Hunger Games?


A: A significant influence would have to be the Greek myth of Theseus and the Minotaur. The myth tells how in punishment for past deeds, Athens periodically had to send seven youths and seven maidens to Crete, where they were thrown in the Labyrinth and devoured by the monstrous Minotaur.
Even as a kid, I could appreciate how ruthless this was. Crete was sending a very clear message: “Mess with us and we’ll do something worse than kill you. We’ll kill your children.” And the thing is, it was allowed; the parents sat by powerless to stop it. Theseus, who was the son of the king, volunteered to go. I guess in her own way, Katniss is a futuristic Theseus.
In keeping with the classical roots, I send my tributes into an updated version of the Roman gladiator games, which entails a ruthless government forcing people to fight to the death as popular entertainment. The world of Panem, particularly the Capitol, is loaded with Roman references. Panem itself comes from the expression “Panem et Circenses” which translates into “Bread and Circuses.”
The audiences for both the Roman games and reality TV are almost characters in themselves. They can respond with great enthusiasm or play a role in your elimination.
I was channel surfing between reality TV programming and actual war coverage when Katniss’s story came to me. One night I’m sitting there flipping around and on one channel there’s a group of young people competing for, I don’t know, money maybe? And on the next, there’s a group of young people fighting an actual war. And I was tired, and the lines began to blur in this very unsettling way, and I thought of this story.

Q: The Hunger Games tackles issues like severe poverty, starvation, oppression, and the effects of war among others. What drew you to such serious subject matter?


A: That was probably my dad’s influence. He was career Air Force, a military specialist, a historian, and a doctor of political science. When I was a kid, he was gone for a year in Viet Nam. It was very important to him that we understood about certain aspects of life. So, it wasn’t enough to visit a battlefield, we needed to know why the battle occurred, how it played out, and the consequences. Fortunately, he had a gift for presenting history as a fascinating story. He also seemed to have a good sense of exactly how much a child could handle, which is quite a bit.

So, If I assume this story (I've only seen the movie) Is about her relationship to her father...any ideas about what this story says about that relationship?

 

Interview Here


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#14
dazed and confused

dazed and confused
  • 174 posts

went to see this movie today, interesting how she didnt actually kill anybody there except in self defense or to defend someone else.

also 74th annual games and only a few guys had figured out that the best strategy for these games is to form an alliance. i mean, they figured it out on the first season of survival.


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#15
ribuck

ribuck
  • 1366 posts

also 74th annual games and only a few guys had figured out that the best strategy for these games is to form an alliance

I don't think it's clear-cut at all. An alliance gives strength to the group, but you'd be forever waiting for someone to exploit the situation and kill you before you kill them. I don't think I'd get much sleep in an alliance. I'd be one of those trying to lie low while everyone else kills each other off.


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#16
Danny Rebelo

Danny Rebelo
  • 164 posts

 

I just completed the
audiobook. It was extremely well done and I cannot wait to jump into the next
book. So much symbolism was jumping around in my mind.


  • The abuse of children by society.
  • The death of Cato in the cornacopia being akin to a
    death within the womb (his parents decision to make him a career tribute).

  • Rue and Prim being aspects of Katniss' personality that
    she is trying to preserve. 

    [/list]

     

    Some interesting aspects:


    • Katniss' doubts about her skills.
    • Katniss' mistrust of other people's intentions.
    • Capitalism is completely disrupted by the Capital and
      the black and grey markets help people to survive. 

      [/list]


      I found this article that seems to indicate that
      this trillogy is extremely libertarian and approaching the conclution of
      anarchy.



      http://stopthestate.blogspot.com/2012/04/libertarianism-in-hunger-games-trilogy.html 



      "[color=#222222;background:#FFF9EE]Libertarians will be
      pleased to see that the question Collins seems to be pondering by the third
      book isn’t what type of government is best, but whether we should even be
      governed at all.  The reader is left with an undeniable
      feeling that the people of Panem would be better off not only without the
      current regime, but without the supposedly better replacement as well.[/color] "



      This sounds too good to be true!

       


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All truths are easy to understand once they are discovered; the point is to discover them.

Galileo Galilei

#17
Danny Rebelo

Danny Rebelo
  • 164 posts

Jeff Tucker has chimed in on the Hunger Games as well.

http://lfb.org/today/democracy-is-our-hunger-game/


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All truths are easy to understand once they are discovered; the point is to discover them.

Galileo Galilei

#18
RobG

RobG
  • 22 posts

I finally got around to see the movie everybody has been talking about.

I definitely agree with Stef that is was so super strange that the children did not seem to show any signs of trauma or distress over the fact that they were being forced to kill each other. The main heroine kissing her love interest after nearly having her throat slit and then seeing someone's head bashed to death, was just sick. The subject matter was treated so lightly. I had to remind myself that KIDS ARE BEING FORCED TO FIGHT TO THE DEATH! because the movie was not emphasising the gravity of that at all.

I know how annoying it has become whenever someone mentions "Battle Royale" in relation to The Hunger Games, as if they are so hip because they know about a popular Japanese movie from ten years ago. But I have to say, it's a much better movie that does treat the subject matter of kids being forced to fight to the death appropriately. Stef also mentioned that in The Hunger Games, the main character's childhood trauma was not dealt with well. In Battle Royale it is dealt with very well. The main character in that witnessed his father commit suicide, when another child was a very young girl her mother sold her to a pedophile, and the teacher who organises the battle royale has issues with his own daughter. It's very clever in that respect. Although, if Stef thought the Hunger Games was too violent then maybe Battle Royale is not for him.


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#19
Yab yum

Yab yum
  • 40 posts

Is Romeo and Juliet "pro-suicide"?

Hunting for propagandizing assumptions within literature - to the exclusion of all other methods - is one of the failures of post-modernism. It's a literary technique that has populated the academy with leftists. But more importantly, it's a sign of a banal intellect, because it's a form of zealotry. It turns art into an arena whereby the failures of art are demonstrated instead of understanding it as a beautiful expression.


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#20
MPStewart

MPStewart
  • 24 posts

I noticed this movie fails with people who did not read the books.  Since it's written from first-person, you don't get to see on-screen the inner horror Katniss feels.  The kiss is better explained in the book:  "impress" the people watching so they donate medicine to the dying boy.  One of the reasons I like this series is that in the 2nd and especially 3rd books, the author shows the traumatic effects of forcing children to commit violence against each other.  I don't think it's annoying to mention a very similar book and movie to this series.  You're sharing your opinion, not trying to impress anyone with your knowledge of fancy trivia!


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