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shirgall

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shirgall last won the day on August 24

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1222 Awesome!

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About shirgall

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    http://pun.org/
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    shirgall
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    http://pun.org/josh/

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    Snoqualmie, WA USA
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    Program Manager

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  1. A rational proof that taxation is theft.

    Uh, no. I agreed that I was the person the card identified. I got the first card because it was required to operate a motor vehicle on public streets. My social security card I signed because it was required to open a bank account and it said right on it that it was not to be used for identification (tells you how old I am). My concealed carry permits were required to carry a concealed weapon in public places, but that scope was limited to. Even my passport signature only said that the passport properly identified me so I could get back into the country when I traveled. My voter registration card also only was attestation of identity. The only time I was ever required to present my voter registration card was at a Libertarian Party business convention to prove I was a legal voter because the party did not want their convention's votes thrown out. Did I consent to these purposes? Perhaps. But you cannot use these to prove that I consented to having a third of my income taken from me on a regular basis or to pay rent to the government for my house.
  2. A rational proof that taxation is theft.

    Good contracts lay out what will happen if the participants are no longer willing, or no longer able, to perform their activities. When you agree in advance what happens when you want out of a deal, it makes things go more smoothly. I think part of the difficulty is the difference between latitude (the scope or breadth of actions from which one is allowed to choose) and freedom (the capacity to choose actions without the threat of force). I can choose to avoid taxes. I am not free to evade taxes.
  3. A rational proof that taxation is theft.

    What you are not getting is that consequentialist justification does not imply consent. Consent is giving permission to incur an obligation of one's free will. Permission given under duress is not acceptance, it is compliance borne of fear of reprisal. Your lifeboat scenario has no applicability to real life, especially since you are asking if governments are morally justified. Their justification has nothing to do with morality, it has to do with pragmatism.
  4. A rational proof that taxation is theft.

    I'm not going to write you a detailed report about the sucking. The best option was to stay put and lay low. There is no place in the world I could find where you can go without fear that some government will hunt you down and extract value from you and yet provide for myself and my family. Antarctica is specifically forbidden from settlement by treaty. The unclaimed territory you spoke of was recently the site of refugee overrun and less recently civil war. You are being specious. You have no solution. None of the options you offered allows me to move there tax-free, because there's even a tax for renouncing your citizenship. I don't want your help. I want you to recognize that socialists don't understand consent and have to be restricted in their influence as much as possible as a result.
  5. A rational proof that taxation is theft.

    I didn't disregard it. It was specious. The Gobi Desert is part of a country that has massive taxes, so your emotional reaction is unwarranted. http://www.doingbusiness.org/data/exploreeconomies/mongolia/paying-taxes Where was this place that had no theft in it that I could go to again? Especially a place where moving there would not cost me most of my assets? I've looked into it, and every option sucked. So, instead, I made do.
  6. A rational proof that taxation is theft.

    That's a straw man. I'm just pointing out it's not so simple to "love or it or leave it". Your analysis about how much I really care is even more shallow than your assessment of how much I really care. I ran for office. I helped others run for office. I taught people how to defend themselves. I have engaged in debate for decades. I have supported the development of methodologies that leverage reason, logic, and real-world data. I have raised a family. None of what you said changes my conclusion that consent is a mystery to socialists.
  7. A rational proof that taxation is theft.

    The cost of moving is huge and also under duress. And, there's no place to move to where your consent is respected. Thus, you make the best of a bad situation, but that does not mean you consent.
  8. A rational proof that taxation is theft.

    Taking things from you without your consent is theft. Giving you things without your consent is, what, exactly? Gifts (rewards, memento) and presents (donations) are given without anything expected in return. That's not the case with government services. They want obedience, allegiance, and respect, at a minimum. It's a transaction, but you are given no choice by to give what is asked and receive what is thrust upon us, thus, an imposition. "Easier" doesn't make something right. Slavery was easier for some. It was wrong. Modern taxation is a new form of slavery, a more insidious form based on the complacency and acceptance of the populace. Socialists don't understand consent. Most have have it taught out of them for decades. Paid for with money stolen from their ancestors. People who accept it outweighing people that don't completely misunderstands the importance of consent. Is it right if all the frat brothers vote which gal that passed out at the bar to rape just because they outnumber her? Taking things from people without their consent is wrong. What we do with that information is what matters. The United States was a better country when they knew things were wrong. "A standing Army is wrong, but we have a hostile nation at our doorstep." When everyone involved knows that something is wrong, but a crisis has to be handled, that's fine. When they forget it is wrong, or invent crises that live in perpetuity, they become tyrants.
  9. A rational proof that taxation is theft.

    The essence of discussion is listening to what others are saying and then building upon it.
  10. A rational proof that taxation is theft.

    You are not using the definition of theft. Theft is the taking of another's property without consent. Your second premise is not valid. Instead, for tax to be theft it has to be the taking of another's property without consent. It is if anyone does not consent to the tax.
  11. A rational proof that taxation is theft.

    3. Did you know how much they charge to renounce US citizenship? https://www.cnbc.com/2016/05/17/exposing-the-hidden-tax-costs-of-renouncing-us-citizenship.html 4. If everyone in Luxembourg expressly and universally agrees to the antics of the Grand Duke then I guess they consent. You have to ask those poor souls. If they tolerate it that doesn't count as consent. Just because there exists a complicated avenue of redress of grievances does not imply consent if people don't avail themselves of the process. Open rebellion is not required to indicate lack of consent, either. Heck, there is personal risk in just expressing your disavowal in public, even in countries that claim to support free speech. The problem is that government systems are not an algorithm that produces a provably correct result, they are a heuristic intended to produce a good enough answer in good enough time. Heuristics are easily tuned to subjective desires but not to universal moral principles. Command economy advocates are the most notorious for getting this wrong. There have to be checks, balances, limitations of power, and alternatives to produce the widest tolerance of what is going on. Since nations do a bad job of increasing these limitations because of the iron law of bureaucracy, specific government systems are never going to last forever. They must be constantly remade and reinvented over the centuries.
  12. A rational proof that taxation is theft.

    1. Just because it worked doesn't make it right. It might be better that nobles arranged things in such a way in the past, but that's not a moral principle. 2. I just said that going to 3 is okay unless specifically disallowed in advance, and then you just said going to 3 entails breaking the contract. These situations are different. In the lease I wrote for a rental property, I said everyone of age to consent to a lease had to sign to it, and that all residents had to abide by it. If they have a baby nothing changes. If a child gets old enough to sign a lease, they have to sign it and abide to it by consent. No conflict, as the choice to join the lease or move out is based on the ability to consent, not existence. 3. Consent given by a guardian ceases when one comes of age. Even so, a guardian cannot consent to your rape, or your understanding of morality is wrong. This is why I think guardians consenting to sex change operations for minors is abuse. Such life-changing decisions (especially since some operations lead to sterility) should not be done to those who cannot consent. 4. The very fact that I have to pay property tax indicates to me that the powers that be think they own the land and can charge me rent for my deed of ownership, and therefore my deed is only worth just how much effort the government goes to to prevent open revolt. I'm under no delusions that they'd take as much control as possible just short of widespread civil disturbance.
  13. A rational proof that taxation is theft.

    In the case of a Monarchy an asshole with an army claims the land is theirs, often as ordained by God. False premises do not yield valid conclusions. I can imagine trying to avoid getting put to death by such a delusional megalomaniac, but not consenting to their rule without such duress. The baby gets to stay unless you specifically disallowed it in the agreement, which is why boilerplate leases have all sorts of forbidden activities and blocks of text related to otherwise common or natural activities. I have never seen one where a lessor is forbidden from procreating, but I suppose it is possible. Everyone in human history is born into conditions they have to deal with. That's does not imply consent. When they start making decisions on their own, that's the first time consent can alleged. There's a reason there is an age of consent in most of the world.
  14. Gay pride

    A well-written contract has procedures for when they are broken and dissolved, agreed in advance with knowledge and consent. Sounds better than family court to me.
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