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  • Fri, Aug 31 2007 6:11 AM

    mentaly Ill people in an anarchist state

    what would happen to those who are extremely mentally ill, possibly without family, and with noone to care for them?



    (this was asked to me by my fascist mother's friend during a lunch when her friend was over, and i was debating with both of them about how they should stop being such bigots about immigration)

     

    i replied with
    "you've pretty much answered that yourself, as by identifying that need and asking what would happen, you have plugged the whole as it is hypocritical of you to ask that and then not help them yourself"

    to which she replied

    "so your saying I should look after them?"

    I was chucked back a bit

    somehow that didn't seem to cover it for me

    can anyone more intelligent spread light on this please? 

     

    thanks

    flex 

    if murder is to be proven "beyond reasonable doubt" then surely a god which condones it should be too
  • Fri, Aug 31 2007 6:20 AM In reply to

    • Nathan
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    Re: mentaly Ill people in an anarchist state

    The answer was yes, if you claim to care about the mentally ill then if you have any kind of integrity your actions should tell the same story.  Otherwise she's not really concerned about the mentally ill.

    Besides, how are the mentally ill taken care of now? How many mentally ill people work for the state? What is "mental illness"?  Is mental illness the reason why we have a state to begin with? Not to take care of them of course, but as a result of them?  Isn't statism a symptom of mental illness? A product of psychological splitting? The same kind of splitting your friend is engaged in? "I care about the mentally ill but as far as my actions are concerned I really don't."

    To edit my answer further, the fundamental question is always: Should violence be used to take care of the mentally ill? Isn't the principle that violence be used to take care of the mentally ill a form of mental illness in itself? 

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  • Fri, Aug 31 2007 7:30 AM In reply to

    • PRice
    • Top 100 Contributor
    • Joined on Fri, May 4 2007
    • Posts 562

    Re: mentaly Ill people in an anarchist state

    Nathan:
    The answer was yes, if you claim to care about the mentally ill then if you have any kind of integrity your actions should tell the same story.  Otherwise she's not really concerned about the mentally ill.

    I'll agree with that.

    Besides, how are the mentally ill taken care of now? How many mentally ill people work for the state? What is "mental illness"?  Is mental illness the reason why we have a state to begin with? Not to take care of them of course, but as a result of them?  Isn't statism a symptom of mental illness? A product of psychological splitting? The same kind of splitting your friend is engaged in? "I care about the mentally ill but as far as my actions are concerned I really don't."

    To edit my answer further, the fundamental question is always: Should violence be used to take care of the mentally ill? Isn't the principle that violence be used to take care of the mentally ill a form of mental illness in itself?

    The state is always force, but that's not mental illness, that's the absence of truth.  For example, it's no surprise that the state I live in, Virginia, is trying to rectify a problem the state caused by not allowing individuals to carry firearms on college campuses, not by recognizing the truth of the situation, but by piling on laws applicable to people deemed by the state as mentally ill to be forcibly detained and otherwise coerced.

  • Fri, Aug 31 2007 7:42 AM In reply to

    • Nathan
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    Re: mentaly Ill people in an anarchist state

    Right, perhaps so.  I'm just not sure how we define mental illness.  If it's schizophrenia or true bi-polar disorder then sure, but to what degree are those illnesses genetic and to what degree are they an effect of bad parenting?

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  • Fri, Aug 31 2007 10:15 AM In reply to

    Re: mentaly Ill people in an anarchist state

    anatomyofareflex:

    what would happen to those who are extremely mentally ill, possibly without family, and with noone to care for them?


    (this was asked to me by my fascist mother's friend during a lunch when her friend was over, and i was debating with both of them about how they should stop being such bigots about immigration)

    i replied with
    "you've pretty much answered that yourself, as by identifying that need and asking what would happen, you have plugged the whole as it is hypocritical of you to ask that and then not help them yourself"

    to which she replied

    "so your saying I should look after them?"

    I was chucked back a bit

    somehow that didn't seem to cover it for me

    can anyone more intelligent spread light on this please? 

    thanks

    flex 

    Sure she should give to charities that take care of the mentally ill, if she's so concerned - why not?

    Right now, though, lots of nuts go in the military - does she prefer that we arm the mentally ill, turn them into murderers, and then turn them loose on society?

    Also, mental problems such as depression and rage are fostered by a brutal and irrational school system, and by dosing kids with Ritalin so they'll shut up, and by making drugs illegal and so on...

    Does that help? 

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  • Fri, Aug 31 2007 12:21 PM In reply to

    • Nathan
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    • Joined on Thu, Mar 23 2006
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    Re: mentaly Ill people in an anarchist state

    Stefan Molyneux:
    anatomyofareflex:

    what would happen to those who are extremely mentally ill, possibly without family, and with noone to care for them?


    (this was asked to me by my fascist mother's friend during a lunch when her friend was over, and i was debating with both of them about how they should stop being such bigots about immigration)

    i replied with
    "you've pretty much answered that yourself, as by identifying that need and asking what would happen, you have plugged the whole as it is hypocritical of you to ask that and then not help them yourself"

    to which she replied

    "so your saying I should look after them?"

    I was chucked back a bit

    somehow that didn't seem to cover it for me

    can anyone more intelligent spread light on this please? 

    thanks

    flex 

    Sure she should give to charities that take care of the mentally ill, if she's so concerned - why not?

    Right now, though, lots of nuts go in the military - does she prefer that we arm the mentally ill, turn them into murderers, and then turn them loose on society?

    Also, mental problems such as depression and rage are fostered by a brutal and irrational school system, and by dosing kids with Ritalin so they'll shut up, and by making drugs illegal and so on...

    Does that help? 

    That's really what I was trying to say up in my first post.  I don't know why I couldn't say it as well. 

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  • Thu, Sep 6 2007 10:36 PM In reply to

    Re: mentaly Ill people in an anarchist state

    I'd answer by asking what her solution to the mentally ill is.

    Answer: The state.

    "How will the state fund its program?"

    Taxes

    "Do you pay taxes?"

    Yes.

    "So, you are saying that you should look after them also."

  • Fri, Sep 7 2007 5:31 AM In reply to

    Re: mentaly Ill people in an anarchist state

    Besides, how are the mentally ill taken care of now?

    My mom works for Family and Children Services up here in Ontario, she has two foster children and when she tells me about the state of affairs it doesnt sound good. Basically there arent enough families to take care of these children and they just get herded into group homes which can be very inadequate for their needs and most likely can be a detriment since some of the kids in these programs are a nightmare to deal with. So first of all the government isnt doing a good job helping the mentally ill in the first place.

    And you have to ask yourself would you send your money to a charity that spent half of it on wars, protectionism, and corruption? The amount of money the system is going to 'lose' from the uncaring in the free market is more than made up for by the increased wealth of those that do care about the poor. This increase in wealth plus the ability to funnel it to efficient private charities means that there will most likely be better care for the poor and disabled in a free market.

    The thing to remember is that once you get rid of the poverty caused by governments, poverty isnt really that big of a problem.

  • Fri, Sep 7 2007 1:58 PM In reply to

    Re: mentaly Ill people in an anarchist state

    Thank you very much Ian, that was a great post, extremely intelligent
    if murder is to be proven "beyond reasonable doubt" then surely a god which condones it should be too
  • Thu, Sep 20 2007 7:41 PM In reply to

    Re: mentaly Ill people in an anarchist state


    Something you might want to keep in mind, since you're going to be answering "private charity" to so many of these kinds of questions, is that individuals aren't the only people who give to charity.  It might seem unreasonable to think that the average household is going to budget out a portion of its income for the insane, and a bit for the homeless, and a bit for charity schools, and a bit for helpless old people, and on and on and on.  First, people are going to give to causes they care about, and so although the number of "donors" would decrease, the amount per donor (I realize how sick it is to equate taxpayers and donors, but bear with me) would increase.  But also, businesses give to charity all the time.  I worked at Target the past two summers, which donates millions to different foundations addressing issues like disease research to charitable housing.  My roommate works at a local running shoe shop, which donates time and money to local concerns in the community.  And this is a more efficient method of charity than the state could dream of!  Problems are identified locally and addressed locally; not only is the issue more likely to affect the donor, but keeping the money in their community makes people more giving since they aren't just watching their dollars disappear (at least, this is true in my own experience).
  • Sat, Sep 22 2007 9:59 AM In reply to

    • Dylboz
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    Re: mentaly Ill people in an anarchist state

    I just want to point out that these kinds of loaded, manipulative questions are actually an attempt to reach the point where you get really frustrated and say, "well, fuck them!" I was at an office party with my ex-wife, and I was laying out the rational reasons for anarcho-capitalism, and these people kept throwing example after example, until it was like, "what about minority poor kids orphaned by natural disasters who are infected with typhoid by the leakage of a private sewage company's septic system and then displaced to another location who have no way of suing for restitution....blah, blah, blah" until you finaly get fed up and say, "it doesn't matter, it's not about that! Who cares, someone will figure it out!" and they shake their heads, feel morally superior and thank the heavens for the benevolent state.

    Don't fall in their trap like I did. Ask them why they wouldn't take care of it themselves, turn it around. Why do they wish to use force to take other people's money to solve the problem? Why, if they are so concerned, and assume others are concerned enough to pass a law, can't they solve the problem voluntarily. Point out the moral hypocracy in recognizing a problem and then forcing that problem onto others through the use of force.

    Religion is Metaphysical Statism. I will not be ruled by any man on earth or god in heaven.

  • Sat, Sep 22 2007 10:05 AM In reply to

    Re: mentaly Ill people in an anarchist state

    Right, and as I mentioned before, when people ask "How will poor people get educated in a free society?" you can say: "I have donated to FDR - what have you done recently to help bring education to the masses?"

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  • Sun, Sep 23 2007 3:47 AM In reply to

    • Joel Davis
    • Top 500 Contributor
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    • Happysville, CA
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    Re: mentaly Ill people in an anarchist state

    first off: the other posters here are right, most of the question was meant to knock you off your block, so to speak, and a broad base of concern does indicate a revenue source for the project(s). there are just a few (long) things I wanted to add, if you'll indulge:

    PRice:

    The state is always force, but that's not mental illness, that's the absence of truth.

     

    Well I'm going to argue that one (infact, I registered to do just that) you still need to recognize that the state is just a group of people who call themselves "government" and deify themselves by saying they magically do what we obviously can't handle. Then when you factor into play the near messianic vision of themselves they usually have (dubbya and stalin come to mind) a fact that is reinforced by a reality composed entirely of the cult of personality that needs to be built around them in order to justify their position relative to alternatives and to competitors. The cult is more or less a projection from the realm of celebrity worship but that's a whole other can of worms I won't open. Then you need to factor in the unconscious drive to dominate other individuals, etc. At any rate, the list goes on as you can imagine. The take home point is this: The composite we draw up here is of someone not only narcissistic but sounding a little like a truly dysfunctional individual. If it's not mental illness, it ain't that far off (not a well-adjusted individual at the very least)


    Nathan Miller:

    I'd answer by asking what her solution to the mentally ill is.

    Answer: The state.

    "How will the state fund its program?"

    Taxes

    "Do you pay taxes?"

    Yes.

    "So, you are saying that you should look after them also."

     

    but an important thing to remember is that by donating the more charitable elements in society are basically penalizing themselves by lowering their material purchasing power in order to commit support to a moral cause, something I think we all should admire in an individual. However, the immoral person out for their own bit has it rewarded by allowing those who care for others to foot the bill when funding leads to a worsened situation. This is actually solved inside the market by deferring most of the operational costs through alternative income sources (ask paul newman) and preference for material donations from their centers of production (thus reducing the burden on the charitable) allowing the charitable to make up the difference. It's just I think that's something that gets lost by most people (and I mean most people everywhere)


    Jason Orr:

    Something you might want to keep in mind, since you're going to be answering "private charity" to so many of these kinds of questions, is that individuals aren't the only people who give to charity.  It might seem unreasonable to think that the average household is going to budget out a portion of its income for the insane, and a bit for the homeless, and a bit for charity schools, and a bit for helpless old people, and on and on and on.

     

    good point but I'd just like to mention that a cooperative donation foundation can be established which handles those situations. A regular election of officials and a direct vote on budgeting decisions would solve the problem. If you're a church goin' guy I'm sure there would be all sorts of social causes to support and a cooperative foundation would be created in-market to facilitate the process. You just give it a good once over and say "yeah this looks like the kind of stuff I want to support, become a member of the co-op and from then on just pay attention to the newsletters and remember to keep up on your membership fees.

     


     

    sorry for the long post, it's my first and I don't really have that much of an outlet for this stuff in my personal life.

     

  • Sun, Sep 23 2007 6:53 AM In reply to

    Re: mentaly Ill people in an anarchist state

    Right -- excellent post -- the other illusion that people have is that the mentally ill are currently being taken care of by the government, which I can empirically tell you that they are not.

    Both my mom and my dad were institutionalized in state facilities at times, and received the crappiest "care" you could imagine...

    BTW, here's another fact that should give people pause about the "benevolence" of the welfare state -- the state workers at the institution where my mom was knew that she was a single mom, and knew that she had two children (I even came to visit) - and yet did nothing to ensure that we were taken care of...Surprise

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  • Thu, Feb 28 2008 2:30 PM In reply to

    Re: 'mentaly ill' people in an anarchist state - doubts/concerns.

    [edited]

    "Better a cruel truth than a comfortable delusion."

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