Freedomain Radio

I was listening to Free Talk Live earlier, and a person I know in "Second Life" brought up to Mark his participation in the Landmark Forum, which he referred to as a cult. This piqued my interest, since Stefan has mentioned it several times throughout his podcast series. They brought up a french documentary about the Forum claiming that it qualifies as a cult, which you can see at this URL:

I went to one of their seminars indoctrinations. They actually had some interesting things to says. They definately pressured you into accepting them and becoming one of them. They made you feel like you were lost if you didn't spend thousand of dollars joining them. They made you feel guilty for not joining after partaking in their free seminar/dinner. I definately felt like it was cult material.

 A not-so-close friend invited us. He went on to join it for lots of money. We had to tell him not to mention it around us because it always felt like he was selling it to us. We saw him less and less frequently.

 That is my experience and I would say it is a cult. They spoke of liberating yourself from past preconceptions in a convincing way. Their actions spoke of binding yourself to a future of submisiveness to them.

The video made it seem rather frightening and tense. Would you say it's representative of your own experience? What did you think they said that was of value?

I couldn't make it through the video. I watched about 5 minutes. It was close except the "confessions" were a positive personal aspect when I went. The video did what all journalism does and play on the fear factor. Look at all the fear of bridges collasping now after the 35W bridge collaspe in minneapolis. For me it wasn't what they did so much as what they did to get and keep you there. That woman was ruining her daughters life for her own sake.

 For me the one aspect that had value was about conditioning. They talked about how values from the civil war were instilled in me from birth. The transmision of values from the past can go unquestioned and you act based upon them. Realizing how you came to have those values by questioning them will allow you to free yourself from their artificial constraints. My grandma reinforced values in me as a child that she took on as a child. They came from her grandparents dating to the civil war. They may or may not still hold but you need to know why. The basis is realizing why you have certain values, how silly the reason is, and then creating your own values based on your current life. I guess the value was on seeing the historic pre-conditioning to evaluate where my assumptions come from. You have thousands of assumptions and can only question them one at a time. It gave me a tool to help evaluate which ones to question first.

They are like a cult, IMO, because they provide 'answers' - some of which are not bad - without providing a methodology which also binds those giving the answers. That is fundamentally religious.

They also make unrealistic promises of a life of 'pure bliss'. Also religious.

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,6903,1106927,00.html

Secret seven

The Landmark Forum's 'seven commandments' for being an extraordinary person:

· Be Racket-Free: give up being right - even when you know you were.

· Be Powerful: be straight in your communication and take what you get.

· Be Courageous: acknowledge your fear (not necessarily get rid of it) and then act.

· Be Peaceful: give up the interpretation that there's something wrong.

· Be Charismatic: give up trying to get somewhere. Be entirely fulfilled in the present moment.

· Be Enrolling: share your new possibilities in such a way that others are touched, moved and inspired.

· Be Unreasonable: in expectations of yourself and others beyond what you would think they are capable of.

 

Stefan Molyneux:

They are like a cult, IMO, because they provide 'answers' - some of which are not bad - without providing a methodology which also binds those giving the answers. That is fundamentally religious.

I don't know about "most" of their answers, but there's some good stuff in there about making up meaning.

There's just no rational methodology with which you can correct the instructors, and that set my alarms off.

I corrected my instructor on some philosophy, and she accused me of running my "I'm so smart" racket.

Yuh. Right. CYA.

Stefan Molyneux:

I don't know about "most" of their answers, but there's some good stuff in there about making up meaning.

There's just no rational methodology with which you can correct the instructors, and that set my alarms off.

I corrected my instructor on some philosophy, and she accused me of running my "I'm so smart" racket.

Yuh. Right. CYA.

I can imagine that it is quite unsettling for them to have their beliefs, the stuff that they are convinced of and that they are selling to the world, challenged, both in the sense of dents in the message and in the sense of losing the authority they as instructors depend on. It is not strange that this will provoke some defense mechanisms in them. What points did you challenge her on?

The woman was trying to claim that everything was subjective, to support the 'racket' theory, and I disassembled her arguments pretty efficiently, and she then tried to use the 'racket' argument that she was trying to establish on me, which I pointed out was 'begging the question' - she didn't know the term, and got pretty angry.

Sorry scare up an old thread. I am taking my Landmark Forum now. What does scare me is the logic can be used to justify anything. It doesn't strike me as a cult any more than any other business offering coaching. The instruction has been largely good however I also caught my coach in some of his own "rackets". Which he admitted were rackets, something like this in front of the whole room:

Me: so you claim that attributing "bad" to an act is an interpretation and not what actually happened? 

coach: yes

Me: so what if I employed violence against you? or what if I threatened violence against you

coach: that would just be "what happened". does someone use violence against you?

me: maybe the IRS, maybe the DEA

coach: I don't feel threatened by them

me: have you tried not paying your taxes?

coach: no, have you?

me: no, I feel threatened

coach: well I don't

me: you say that but I suspect you truly do feel threatened to pay. do you take tax deductions?

coach: <no response>

me: do you agree with 100% of government programs? all the wars? all the imprisonments?

coach: yes, I believe taxes support society and my country, you don't, so we'll go live amongst our own kind and then we'll fight

me: I believe in self-ownership so I won't initiate violence

coach: OK but that's your story, mine's different.....

 

And that was basically it..... he did admit the Fed was crazy and praised Ghandi and MLK for  bucking the system.

feedmeliberty:

coach: yes, I believe taxes support society and my country, you don't, so we'll go live amongst our own kind and then we'll fight

I'm not sure why you would fight someone because you differ in opinion with them, if you think "bad" is subjective?

Stefan Molyneux:

They are like a cult, IMO, because they provide 'answers' - some of which are not bad - without providing a methodology which also binds those giving the answers. That is fundamentally religious.

I had the same thought when I was watching. Some of the answers seemed accurate but the delivery, the total lack of methodology involved, and the shaming was really unhealthy. Shaming someone who is being honest will quickly turn them into your worst enemy.

On further reflection of my course the issue has come up a few times of violent behavior and how to *deal* with it emotionally and in-reality. The coach seems to retreat to a sort of "well you're not meant to get it" or "it's a linguistics problem, not a problem with reality
, which is fine but then he also says that the whole program is so beneficial and that's why they (Landmark folks) want everyone to take Landmark as if it is the only objective truth out there. I'm going to bring this up in my class today and see how it goes.

How would I find the podcasts where Stefan talks about Landmark?