Freedomain Radio

in
Latest post Tue, Dec 25 2007 8:38 PM by Stefan Molyneux. 50 replies.
Page 1 of 4 (51 items) 1 2 3 4 Next >
Sort Posts: Previous Next
  • Wed, Dec 27 2006 10:55 AM

    Proving Morality?

    Hi, my name is Danny (pronounced "Donny" due to an acute case of Israeli heritage), and this is my first post on this board.  I just wanted to debate the eighth podcast, which sets out to prove Libertarian morality.  Here are my objections:

    1) In the podcast, Stefan says that to say that there are no universally preferred behaviors is to imply that truth is universally preferred.  However, this only demonstrates that the speaker prefers truth.  Someone who does not argue with Stefan, but does not agree either, has not contradicted herself.  Additionally, we might be instructed by looking at the Buddhist thinker Nagarjuna, who had a similar argument with an ancient Vedic school of logic called Nyaya (I wrote a paper on this last semester, I know it's cheesy to bring it up...sorry).  He claimed that if he were taking the opposing position himself, his argument would be self defeating.  However, because he was not taking such a position, but was only saying that his opponents' position was incorrect, no such error could be ascribed to him.  In other words, we're not dealing with "A" vs "~A" here; we're dealing with "(for all x) Ax" vs "~(for all x) Ax."  Accordingly, I can fulfill "A," and still show that "~(for all x) Ax" as long as there exists an x such that "~Ax".

    2) In the podcast, Stefan says that preferred behaviors exist because existence implies purposeful action (this is not strictly true, because many organisms do not consciously prefer to act the way that they do, but rather operate in an explicitly deterministic fashion).  But the existence of preferences does not imply that universally preferred behaviors exist.  If I prefers eating spinach, and my friend finds doing so abhorrent, it can be said that we both display preferred behaviors, but that there is no universal preferred behavior with regard to eating spinach.

    3) Stefan appeals to universality, but says that exceptions to rules do not disprove the rule.  He cites the example in biology where a horse born with two heads can still be considered a horse.  However, a little metaphysical analysis would surely show that horse-ness is not dependent upon having one head.  The line which differentiates a horse from a non-horse may not exist, but so long as a two headed horse is still a horse, then it is obvious that we can not have strayed from any rule.  It is clear there was never an "if x is a horse, then x has one head" imperative in the first place.  Saying that horses generally have one head, but rare two headed horses exist, does not imply that horses should have one head; it is simply an observation.  But since Stefan contradicts this stance mere moments later when he claims that soldiers ought not to murder, we can put this aside.

    4) Stefan's attempts to prove Libertarian ideals like property rights at the end of his podcast carry in as assumptions that we already believe the moral propositions he is espousing.  If I steal from you (which presupposes the existence of property rights, because taking only becomes stealing if you have a right to your things), who is to say that I am assuming that others won't try to do the same to me?  I might build up a stockpile of weapons to ensure that no one can take from me what I've taken from others.  This moral position would be a pretty objectionable one, but it's not inherently inconsistent.

    5) Stefan's rape example holds pretty unlibertarian implications.  He claims that rape is bad because it results in considerable displeasure for the victim, but this same argument could be made against painting one's house an obnoxious color or making light of one's controversial opinions.  Many people would argue that these acts are certainly not bad, first among these libertarians.

    To be clear, I'm a libertarian myself, and nothing would please me more than being able to prove morality.  I just don't think it can be done, and I think this exposition falls short.

  • Wed, Dec 27 2006 11:56 AM In reply to

    Re: Proving Morality?

    I'm a libertarian myself

    Why?

     

  • Wed, Dec 27 2006 12:56 PM In reply to

    Re: Proving Morality?

    Excellent questions Donny! I've gone over a few responses to these in podcasts 33, 51, 67, 116, 148, 260, 489, 540, 555.

    Let me know if the first few answer your questions, and I'll be happy to help if I can. Big Smile
     

    Please join the new Freedomain Radio Facebook page:

    Freedomain Radio - The Largest Philosophy Conversation in the World | Promote Your Page Too


    All Free! - Audio, PDF. Print starting @ $9.99+
    Freedomain Radio Needs Your Support!


    My status

  • Wed, Dec 27 2006 3:40 PM In reply to

    • Nathan
    • Top 10 Contributor
    • Joined on Thu, Mar 23 2006
    • Philadelphia, PA
    • Posts 13,120
    • Philosopher King

    Re: Proving Morality?

    He claims that rape is bad because it results in considerable displeasure for the victim, but this same argument could be made against painting one's house an obnoxious color or making light of one's controversial opinions.

    Are you seriously comparing rape to observing a house with a bad paint job?

    The points you make have been made many times by many others, do you mind listening to those podcasts first to catch up and then see if you still find a specific error? You could also search the board for the other threads.

  • Wed, Dec 27 2006 3:48 PM In reply to

    • Nathan
    • Top 10 Contributor
    • Joined on Thu, Mar 23 2006
    • Philadelphia, PA
    • Posts 13,120
    • Philosopher King

    Re: Proving Morality?

    DonnywithanA:
    this is not strictly true, because many organisms do not consciously prefer to act the way that they do, but rather operate in an explicitly deterministic fashion

    While our operations are far more complex I tend to think that we are still subject to causality and the fundamental laws of nature.

    4) Stefan's attempts to prove Libertarian ideals like property rights at the end of his podcast carry in as assumptions that we already believe the moral propositions he is espousing.  If I steal from you (which presupposes the existence of property rights, because taking only becomes stealing if you have a right to your things), who is to say that I am assuming that others won't try to do the same to me?

    Universally preferred behavior is like nutrition, just because you know a guy who is fat and eats fast food all day does not mean that the rules of biology and good nutrition suddenly change and do not apply to him.

    Nathaniel Brandon:
    "The driver of an automobile can steer the car in a chosen direction but cannot alter or infringe the mechanical laws by which the car functions.  In the same way man can choose to focus, to aim his cognitive faculty in a given direction but cannot alter or infringe the psychological laws by which his mind functions.  If a man does not steer his car properly he has no choice about the fact that he will end in a smashup.

    Man is free to think or not to think.  He is not free to escape the fact that if he fails to think, if he characteristically evades facing any facts or issues which he finds unpleasant, he will set in motion a complex chain of destructive psychological consequences.  One of these will be a profound loss of self-esteem."

  • Wed, Dec 27 2006 8:44 PM In reply to

    • impaler
    • Not Ranked
    • Joined on Wed, Nov 22 2006
    • Posts 39

    Re: Proving Morality?

    I've argued the first point (less eloquently and with another approach) but the only thing I've gotten in response is a request to read or listen more stuff that doesn't answer that particular concern.
    It would be great if someone would answer that one.
    Impaling the world!
  • Wed, Dec 27 2006 9:01 PM In reply to

    • Nathan
    • Top 10 Contributor
    • Joined on Thu, Mar 23 2006
    • Philadelphia, PA
    • Posts 13,120
    • Philosopher King

    Re: Proving Morality?

    impaler:
    I've argued the first point (less eloquently and with another approach) but the only thing I've gotten in response is a request to read or listen more stuff that doesn't answer that particular concern.
    It would be great if someone would answer that one.

    1) In the podcast, Stefan says that to say that there are no universally preferred behaviors is to imply that truth is universally preferred.  However, this only demonstrates that the speaker prefers truth.  Someone who does not argue with Stefan, but does not agree either, has not contradicted herself.  Additionally, we might be instructed by looking at the Buddhist thinker Nagarjuna, who had a similar argument with an ancient Vedic school of logic called Nyaya (I wrote a paper on this last semester, I know it's cheesy to bring it up...sorry).  He claimed that if he were taking the opposing position himself, his argument would be self defeating.  However, because he was not taking such a position, but was only saying that his opponents' position was incorrect, no such error could be ascribed to him.  In other words, we're not dealing with "A" vs "~A" here; we're dealing with "(for all x) Ax" vs "~(for all x) Ax."  Accordingly, I can fulfill "A," and still show that "~(for all x) Ax" as long as there exists an x such that "~Ax".

    Yes he has actually in 555 I think. 

    "Listen to more stuff"?  Uh dude, that stuff is why this board is here to begin with to discuss that stuff. Stef usually answers all these questions in his podcasts.  I mean what do you expect?  It's like going to a message board for a certain piece of software and pointing out errors or claiming there are missing features when you haven't even bought or used the software.  Besides, the question has already been asked in one form or another and if you don't think it has then ask - but most likely you're just rewording a question already asked and the only reason you get referred to a podcast is because nobody likes reinventing the wheel.

    Regardless I've already pretty much answered the question in my post before this one. 

    In addition: If the argument is that the opponents position is in error then it might be up to the person pointing out the error to actually be specific and provide a logical proof rather than framing the argument as was done above.  By claiming the opponent is in error one automatically must be disagreeing and taking a position contrary to the opponent.  Simply saying you aren't taking that position after doing so does not change the nature of that behavior.

     

  • Thu, Dec 28 2006 7:53 AM In reply to

    • impaler
    • Not Ranked
    • Joined on Wed, Nov 22 2006
    • Posts 39

    Re: Proving Morality?

    Nathan:

    Yes he has actually in 555 I think.

    I listen to that podcast, and it points at the "contradiction" of not believing in universal morality without answering to point number 1.

     

    Nathan:

    "Listen to more stuff"?  Uh dude, that stuff is why this board is here to begin with to discuss that stuff.

    You misunderstood me , I like listening to stuff, ¿is the word stuff offensive?

    Nathan:
    Stef usually answers all these questions in his podcasts.

    My point is: he doesn't .

    Nathan:


    Regardless I've already pretty much answered the question in my post before this one. 

    a url  would be nice

    Nathan:

    In addition: If the argument is that the opponents position is in error then it might be up to the person pointing out the error to actually be specific and provide a logical proof rather than framing the argument as was done above.  By claiming the opponent is in error one automatically must be disagreeing and taking a position contrary to the opponent.  Simply saying you aren't taking that position after doing so does not change the nature of that behavior.

    I agree. link1, link2.

    Impaling the world!
  • Thu, Dec 28 2006 8:13 AM In reply to

    • Nathan
    • Top 10 Contributor
    • Joined on Thu, Mar 23 2006
    • Philadelphia, PA
    • Posts 13,120
    • Philosopher King

    Re: Proving Morality?

    a url  would be nice

    Here is the url, it is in this same thread.  I consider this an answer to all the points made.  If you don't please tell me how it does not apply to point 1.

  • Thu, Dec 28 2006 9:40 AM In reply to

    • impaler
    • Not Ranked
    • Joined on Wed, Nov 22 2006
    • Posts 39

    Re: Proving Morality?

    Nathan:

    Universally preferred behavior is like nutrition, just because you know a guy who is fat and eats fast food all day does not mean that the rules of biology and good nutrition suddenly change and do not apply to him.


    I don't think it answers my question directly but I still have something I don't understand about it.

    The rules of nutrition do apply to him, but the preference of good nutrition doesn't.
    Maybe he prefers to be fat and get the pleasure of eating. If that is the case, good nutrition wouldn't be universally preferred. You cant say its universally preferred to eat healthy except by all the fat people on the world, it wouldn't be universal.
    You could say good nutrition is universally preferred to be healthy, but then you are tying morality to its outcome, and as I understand what its been proposed, morality would be independent from its outcome.

    Nathan:
    If you don't please tell me how it does not apply to point 1

    I cant really tell you where you are wrong because I don't see where have you dealt with this:

    DonnywithanA:
    He claimed that if he were taking the opposing position himself, his argument would be self defeating.  However, because he was not taking such a position, but was only saying that his opponents' position was incorrect, no such error could be ascribed to him

    Impaling the world!
  • Thu, Dec 28 2006 9:53 AM In reply to

    • Nathan
    • Top 10 Contributor
    • Joined on Thu, Mar 23 2006
    • Philadelphia, PA
    • Posts 13,120
    • Philosopher King

    Re: Proving Morality?

    The rules of nutrition do apply to him, but the preference of good nutrition doesn't.
    Maybe he prefers to be fat and get the pleasure of eating. If that is the case, good nutrition wouldn't be universally preferred. You cant say its universally preferred to eat healthy except by all the fat people on the world, it wouldn't be universal.

    The term preference in UPB is not of personal preference, neither is nutrition.  The science of nutrition stays the same regardless of his unhealthy eating habits.  He may personally prefer to enjoy food over health but like the Nathaniel Branden quote it does not change the fact that he will get fat and unhealthy.  Nutrition is UPB with a nod to the intricate complexities of nutritional requirements for various people depending on age or condition.

    Perhaps preferred is just not working out for people because when this term is used it is confused as personal preference as morality is often confused for personal preference as it has been hijacked by religion and become a tautology within the various religions. So if morality means religion then of course morality then becomes relative and a personal preference as well as a totally meaningless tautology.

    How about Universally Recommended Behavior? Universally Optimal Behavior? Universally Beneficial Behavior?  Same concept different names.

    I still think the Branden quote says it all and addresses point one in that it completely invalidates point one as a problem.  It is not a matter of personal preference it is a matter of universal preference.

    If someone proposes a moral theory should it not be universal and consistent? 

  • Thu, Dec 28 2006 11:55 AM In reply to

    • impaler
    • Not Ranked
    • Joined on Wed, Nov 22 2006
    • Posts 39

    Re: Proving Morality?

    Nathan:

    If someone proposes a moral theory should it not be universal and consistent? 



    I agree. If someone proposes a moral rule, that rule would have to be universal and consistent to be considered a valid rule and not a personal preference.
    But my point with the paragraph you quoted mas finalized in the second:
    impaler:
    You could say good nutrition is universally preferred to be healthy, but then you are tying morality to its outcome, and as I understand what its been proposed, morality would be independent from its outcome.

    thats my issue with Nathaniel's quote is not that is false, but that needs a morality dependent of outcome.

    But the point that I'm trying to make is not that one, because at the root we have other disagreement.
    What I'd like to cominucate is this:
    1) There are behivors that are universally preferred and are amoral. ¿do you agree with me in that one?
    2) But if we define morality as universally preferred behivor we involve in our definition of morality amoral behivors that are universally preferred.

    that would mean that defining morality as UPB is flawd and we need to find a common ground with no logical inconsistencies.

    Before you answer anything else, ¿do you agree with points 1 and 2?

     

    Impaling the world!
  • Thu, Dec 28 2006 12:43 PM In reply to

    Re: Proving Morality?

    For me, UPB is morality, so I would not include 'amoral and UPB' in the same category (I go more into this in 567:

    http://www.freedomainradio.com/Traffic_Jams/FDR_567_Morals_Ethics_and_Aesthetics.mp3

    This also sparked some stimulating discussion...

    Please join the new Freedomain Radio Facebook page:

    Freedomain Radio - The Largest Philosophy Conversation in the World | Promote Your Page Too


    All Free! - Audio, PDF. Print starting @ $9.99+
    Freedomain Radio Needs Your Support!


    My status

  • Thu, Dec 28 2006 12:52 PM In reply to

    • Nathan
    • Top 10 Contributor
    • Joined on Thu, Mar 23 2006
    • Philadelphia, PA
    • Posts 13,120
    • Philosopher King

    Re: Proving Morality?

    impaler:

    1) There are behivors that are universally preferred and are amoral. ¿do you agree with me in that one?
    2) But if we define morality as universally preferred behivor we involve in our definition of morality amoral behivors that are universally preferred.

    Before you answer anything else, ¿do you agree with points 1 and 2?

    Yes...

    that would mean that defining morality as UPB is flawd and we need to find a common ground with no logical inconsistencies.

    I'm not sure how you reached that conclusion, I will guess you mean that if something amoral like nutrition or language is also included as UPB that it can't be called morality or ethics because it is amoral?

  • Thu, Dec 28 2006 1:48 PM In reply to

    • impaler
    • Not Ranked
    • Joined on Wed, Nov 22 2006
    • Posts 39

    Re: Proving Morality?

    I'll listen to that one, but in the meantime I have a question:
    Would you agree that not eating rocks for breakfast is universally preferred but it is not immoral to do so?

    Impaling the world!
Page 1 of 4 (51 items) 1 2 3 4 Next >
Copyright 2005-2012 By Stefan Molyneux
Powered by Community Server (Non-Commercial Edition), by Telligent Systems