Freedomain Radio

So a day or two ago I got a $2 donation with no note from the donator, and I posted this on Facebook:

"You received a donation of $2.00 CAD from..."
I don't mean to sound ungrateful, but... :(

My post promptly lit up with a vehemence that was probably visible from space. (If you’re interested, and have a strong stomach, you can check it out here:https://www.facebook.com/stefan.molyneux/posts/10151611301626679) 

I don’t remember many people asking me why I was sad to receive a $2 donation, but for those few who were curious, I will tell you.

Let’s call the donator “Bob.” Why would Bob send me $2?

First, Bob might really love Freedomain Radio, but sadly is completely broke.

I have said many times that I don’t want donations to my show to be financially difficult for anyone. When people write to me saying that they are broke, but want to donate, I thank them but tell them to keep their money and take care of themselves first. In a recent Freedomain Radio Sunday call in show, one listener wanted to quit college and donate all of his tuition fees to Freedomain Radio. I thanked him, but refused. If he stays in college, he'll need the money – if he quits college, he'll need the money even more!

If Bob is so broke that $2 is close to the maximum of his disposable income, I don’t feel comfortable accepting it - I mean, what if Bob suddenly needs to take a bus to the hospital? (I used to refund these small donations with a note of thanks, but then some of the “donators” went on Facebook complaining that I was rejecting their generosity, spitting in their faces, etc. etc.)

So I don’t feel comfortable accepting Bob’s last remaining two dollars, but refunding it sometimes leads to more problems.

That makes me feel sad.

The second possibility is that Bob has a lot more disposable income than $2, but has only listened to a few shows, and really likes them. However, if Bob likes Freedomain Radio to the point that he wants to donate, then clearly he’s going to continue listening, so why not just wait until he has listened to more shows, and donate then? Imagine if I went to a convenience store knowing I wanted to buy 10 packs of gum, and then paid for each one as a separate transaction – and with Visa! Clearly I’m imposing unnecessarily high costs on the store, and doing something quite irrational. If that is Bob’s level of thinking, that makes me quite sad.

Ah, but perhaps Bob has only listened to a few shows, doesn’t like them, and is not going to listen to any more. If so, then why donate? That seems like blindly following “orders,” which also makes me sad. Or, he is just spending 10 minutes sending me $2 so that I really understand that he doesn’t like my show and isn’t going to listen to any more.

(Of course, if Bob has only listened to a podcast or two, and doesn’t like my show, he’s not going to be following me on Facebook, so if I post about the $2 donation, that isn’t exactly going to hurt his feelings.)

Now perhaps there is some other reason for a $2 donation that I haven’t thought of, but that is easily taken care of. Some people who have sent me very low dollar donations have included a note – very easy to do – letting me know why, which is much appreciated. For instance, somebody send a small donation yesterday, but included this nice note:

“Thank you Stefan for all of your hard work. I am regretful that my donation could not be more. I frequently share your links and try to present them as professionally as I can to engage those more well off to assist in your endeavors. I'm a poor artist ;(“

If I were to send someone only $2, I would tell him why, just so he wouldn’t feel bad. If I sat through a three hour “pay what you want” concert, and then went up and handed the sweaty musicians $2 and walked away without a word, how would they feel?

If Bob sends me $2, and doesn’t have the basic empathy to understand how that can make someone feel, then I feel sad about that - for Bob.

Another possibility is that Bob is kind of vindictive and mean, and wants to send me a tiny donation so that I feel bad.

That also makes me feel sad.


This is not exactly an exhaustive list - I’m sure there are other possibilities - but I hope it gives some sense as to why felt sad, and hopefully that it can be of some value to ask a question or two before indulging in a silly flamefest that doesn’t make our community look overly rational and mature.

What an ungrateful post!

The FDR donate page specifically suggests $1.50 and $2.00 as example donation amounts. There's no caveat saying "but whatever you do, don't send small amounts anonymously without a covering note".

I think I would feel the same in your position Stef. Correct me if I'm wrong but this is what I thought of after going through the various possibilities that you listed in your post; You felt sad because you had an internal premise that the low donation reflected in some way the state of the world as it is. i.e. What kind of world am I living in when billions go into the coffers of lying priests daily and so little into spreading philosophy?

Maybe this will reassure you, your work has an exponential effect. I found you on my own, but all my current friends found you through me. And they love it.

Just keep doing what you're doing.

After reading this I feel the urge to explain my tiny $5 donations.

I am a single father, unemployed and most of the time I am flat ass broke. When I make my small donations it is when I sell something on ebay and I have money in my paypal account.

Since I am broke I really shouldn’t donate, but it is a way for me to feel better about myself. The small amount does not, or at least is not intended to be a reflection of the value of the content. My thinking is that if more people give what they can then maybe it will make a difference.

Anyway Stef, when I saw your post on facebook I didn’t have any negative reaction to it… Even though I was one of the low $ donators.

Hey Stefan,

I wanted to just say sorry about what happened to you over the weekend. I appreciate your explanation and link to your Facebook page. I don't know how it feels for someone like yourself to be a leader in the philosophy field, make incredible videos that aren't just entertaining like most podcasts, but more importantly enlightening at least me to see what virtue looks like, and then have your audience attack you in such a mob fashion. How are you feeling after a couple days after such a crazy situation? I hope it hasn't been to harmful, I mean it’s a good thing because you know who to oust within your Facebook friends, but I know it must have hurt a bit emotionally trying to deal with such a vitriolic remarks. Thankfully within the FDR community I have always had positive and accepting individuals to interact with. In my personal circle I know that being open just with your emotions, let alone principles, can and typically make you a target for people. From the small attacks I have gone through I know it hurts like a dagger slowly twisting in your soul. I know that the sincere community, you, and your family know of the amazing job that you are doing. Keep your head up, you’re an amazing person, and your work is one of the most valuable things I have access to.

Thank you

Juan

Okay Stef, in the effort to make sure you're getting optimal financing, I'd like to ask this in order to clear it up for me.

I am currently a $5/month donator. I would wholeheartedly agree that this is a measly amount considering the amount of media I watch from you, and I'm giving the age-old "I'm a broke bastard" as my defense for doing so. Despite your mention that you don't want having to donate be financially difficult for anyone, I still manage to have a place to live, to have a computer, to have access to the internet, and I somehow manage to buy myself things like beer and coffee occasionally throughout the month. Thus although $5/month represents enough beer to drink comfortably for an evening, month-wise it's not like I'm going to have to face the fear of going sober.

I had originally donated nothing, as I felt I didn't have anything worth giving (I felt five bucks a month was more like a slap in the face than anything else). I then heard you describing as a side note in another podcast about how something like 1-2% of listeners donate anything at all. I re-thought my feelings on the $5/month thing and came to the idea that if you were able to get 5 (hell, even 1) dollar a month from 10% of your listeners, it might not rocket you into the land of riches, but at least it could provide some level of monthly security knowing "okay, at least I know this much is coming in". Thus I tossed some money on my Paypal account, and clicked on the $5/month donation button. My beer budget cried a little, but I just yelled at it to get a job.

So then the question is: is a $5/month donation worth it? Would it be better to get a $50 in one chunk or $5 reoccuring in ten months (I know small individual transactions eat the money up, but does this occur for reoccuring transactions as well)? Would it not be a good a idea to try to get a baseline of people donating a small amount of money on a monthly basis, especially if you can get it up to double digits? I'm just shooting in the dark here and I'd like to know the most effective way of helping out without slap-in-the-face-sized donations.

-Dylan

What is it about expressing your own feelings that causes people to lash out?

pretzelogik:

What is it about expressing your own feelings that causes people to lash out?

Lashing out is the result of enduring years of condemnation from various people (eg. parents, peers, authority figures, etc.).

Stef's Facebook post was interpreted by many people as contemptuous. Of course, this doesn't justify the deluge of vitriol. Stef's popularity has attracted a contingent of detractors who look for any opportunity to pounce on lapses or blunders in order to make a spectacle.

I don't find this to be productive at all and it would be best to move on and not spend any more time on it.

It is amazing how people sell stuff on ebay for $2 free shipping… 

Years and years ago bought a three dollar drink from a bartender, dropped 50 cents in his jar, he tilted the jar and gave it back saying "I think you need this more than I do."

ribuck:

What an ungrateful post!

The FDR donate page specifically suggests $1.50 and $2.00 as example donation amounts. There's no caveat saying "but whatever you do, don't send small amounts anonymously without a covering note".

It's weird that you can write a post but can't read one.

Nathan:

ribuck:

... The FDR donate page specifically suggests $1.50 and $2.00 as example donation amounts. There's no caveat saying "but whatever you do, don't send small amounts anonymously without a covering note".

It's weird that you can write a post but can't read one.

I spent about 15 minutes reading Stef's post very carefully and thinking about the possible explanations that Stef mentioned for the $2 donation.

I noticed that the list didn't cover all of the reasons why someone might donate $2. I considered talking about that in my post, but I decided it would be more relevant to point out that Stef's own website encourages small donations. The donation page doesn't suggest that these small donations might cause anxiety or unhappiness.

Presumably you feel that I didn't correctly read Stef's post. Please feel free to enlighten me if you wish.

No, it doesn't.

ribuck:

What an ungrateful post!

The FDR donate page specifically suggests $1.50 and $2.00 as example donation amounts. There's no caveat saying "but whatever you do, don't send small amounts anonymously without a covering note".

Dave Bockman:

ribuck:

The FDR donate page specifically suggests $1.50 and $2.00 as example donation amounts.

No, it doesn't.

Well then what am I misinterpreting? Immediately above the figures "$1.50" and "$2.00" are the words "Donation Request", and to the right are various donation options including "One Time Donation" next to which it says "All support is deeply appreciated".

As of the time I'm writing this, your donation page still says:

---

What is Philsophy Worth?

Number of Podcasts: 4

Donation Request: $2.00

All support is deeply appreciated, thank you so much for your help!

---

The most simple explanation as to why the donator gave $2.00 is he listened to a few podcasts, liked them enough to want to give you money, and picked the exact amount you asked for! 

So revise your band example to include a sign in front of the tip jar that says "Suggested donation: 50 cents per song" and ask yourself if you'd feel the need to explain yourself after only having listened to a few songs.

And revise your store example to include the sign that's in almost every existing convenience store: "Minimum credit card purchase: $x".  Convenience stores and other businesses that deal in small transactions do things to protect themselves from getting eaten up by processing fees.  I don't hear or see you taking personal responsibility for allowing a transaction you say you don't want.  You're a former CTO, aren't you?  How much time would it have taken to modify your donation page/code to prevent donations under a certain amount?  I can't believe it would take any more time than what you've already spent on this issue.

I also don't know what to think when I read your post here compared to your initial reply on facebook:

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 I know, I know, it really does sound ungrateful, I get that, but I did want to express some frustration, because of course PayPal takes almost 20% of the $2, and then I end up having to track and record and summarize and report and pay taxes on $1.60, which I'm pretty sure ends up costing me money. I really do appreciate everyone's feedback, and I get that the comment came across as a little 'precious,' but really, I am spending enormous amount of money on this documentary, and I've never talked about small donation amounts over the past 6 years, even though it happened more times than I care to remember...

---

I don't see any curiousity about your donator's situation or motivations there, only how much money ends up in your pocket.  If processing a $2 transaction really does cost you money, then there's something wrong with the way you're handling them.  There are digital goods being sold all over the internet (songs, apps, etc.) for even smaller amounts at a profit.  Again, I don't see you taking responsiblity for this.  You chose your business model.  You chose PayPal as your processor.  You chose how to do your accounting and reporting.

What I'm curious about more than anything in this situation is how the donator felt (and anyone else who donated similar amounts) when you left your initial facebook comment, along with the follow up posts.