Freedomain Radio

I feel uncomfrotable when people force my son (3 y.o.) to say "Please" while holding a chocolate cookie in their hand. However more than once I've seen long faces when my son fails to comply with what some people expects: say "hello", say "good bye", give a hug, give a kiss, say "please", say "thank you", say "you are sorry". I dont force my child to say or do anything to comply witth social rules.

I found this article on line which is similar to many others around on the same subject.

 -Should I ask my child to say please and thank you -

http://ehowdiy.com/parents_should_i_ask_my_child_to_say_please_and_thank_you.htm

My question is:

Why do we feel that we need to hear specific words to function?

Are we afraid of being asked things direclty by toddlers or people in general?

Does it make us less of a person if we do things without the magic words?

Why do we think that it is up to us to teach other peoples children on how to act socially? Why dont we try to teach people in general :) and see what happens.

"Please" reply to my post

"Thank you"

RLujano:

say "hello", say "good bye", give a hug, give a kiss, say "please", say "thank you", say "you are sorry".

Yes, it's like one great cavalcade of adults demanding children repeat all these abstract terms as a means to not elicit the rancour of these adults.

It's an interesting topic you raise. Politeness was something I was compelled to do by every adult in my life as a child. So it wasn't surprising for me to learn that (self knowledge wise) why I got so angry (as an adult) when others didn't reciprocate. I was of course terrified as a child into being polite, which very often meant that I was often unnecessarilly overly polite as an adult.

Personally I think politeness is a nice trait to have, but I think a lot of it is taught as a means to being 'subservient' and 'compliant' to those that dominate us. i.e. family, school, church, employer and state. For example I see people being overly polite through airport security all the time. It actually quite annoys me, since it often means the queue is delayed further, as they try to engage the agent in pointless natter. Since I know the procedure backwards, I just do what's expected of me and barely acknowledge the agent at all.

In all I guess we should teach children how politeness can be best used to our advantages at times. But ultimately that it's a way we can compliment those that have kind of earned it. I think what is surprising in a lot of child rearing, is just how much adults consider their own behaviour as having very little influence on a child. So when they demand a 'please' or a 'thank you' upon giving a cookie and are surprised when they don't get one. I'm like, look at your own behaviour!

The person offering the cookie ( then suddenly witholding the cookie, demanding a monkey trick first) is being impolite. 

When my son was in his more formative years (he's 11 now) I would just review with him the concept of courtesy and social graces. "Here is a situation where more often than not a 'please' and 'thank you' are very welcome in the verbal exchange. You're under no moral obligation to say 'please', you're not a bad person if you don't say 'please' or 'thank you', however my experience has been that when you DO say those things in situations like this, people feel really good afterwards and they're much more likely to be generous with their sharing with you in the future."

Saying "please", "thank you", "you're welcome", and other magic words for the sake of politeness is meaningless. If a kid wants a toy or cookie from me and I give it to him, the fact that he's playing with it or eating it is enough evidence that he is grateful. I'm not insecure if he doesn't say "thank you" like some sort of machine. When a kid's parents instruct a kid to say "thank you" or "good bye" to me, I'll usually say something like "If he doesn't want to, that's fine. He's already got my respect for being cool with me!" Some will giggle it off and go on, while others insist that their child follows their instructions.

Just replace the words with "paperclip", "laundry list", and "rocking chair", and I can almost guarantee you the child will grow up with the habit of spitting out these irrelevant words for the sake of being polite. It may confuse other adults, but it demonstrates how meaningless this ritual is.

RLujano:

Why do we think that it is up to us to teach other peoples children on how to act socially? Why dont we try to teach people in general :) and see what happens.

I don't expect my kids to say the magic words, but I did mention to the kids that they are more likely to get another gift from a person next year if they thank the person this year.

I've found that politeness, like respect, is earned.  If you're polite, people tend to reciprocate.  Same with kids.  If you're nice to them, they'll be nice to you. 

Plenty of adults don't say please when they ask for something, and if I just held it out and ask them them "what's the magic word" with a condascending look on my face they'd probably want to punch me, so why would you do that to a child? 

I was playing with my 3 year old neice recently and she kept handing me things and I was saying "thank you so much" in a very exagerrated tone, and she eventually gave me a confused look and said "why do you keep saying thank you?", and I told her it was just my way of expressing gratitude for her handing me the items.  So, naturally, the next time I handed her something she said "oh, thank you". 

The anectdotal point is not that they should or shouldn't be "minding their p's and q's", only that children learn by watching what you do, not by what you tell them to do.  If you're polite, so too will your children be.  Same goes if you're a "rude little pig".

I used to feel annoyed when people tried to force my children to say those words. I used to quickly say the words on their behalf, so that they didn't have to do it. 

I don't even notice if a child says hello to me, or thank you, or please.   

I'm annoyed when a mother forces her child to say thank you to me. Like mythness said, there are other signs of gratitude, happiness (it's the same for adults). And even if there are no signs, I don't like the idea of forcing a child to fake it. He will eventually learn what works better for him. 

sensedata:

Plenty of adults don't say please when they ask for something, and if I just held it out and ask them them "what's the magic word" with a condascending look on my face they'd probably want to punch me, so why would you do that to a child?

I think that when someone truly helps another person, the least important part is the "Thank you" in his answer.

I think when someone truly needs help from another person, the least important part is the "Please" in the request for help.

Interesting conversation. I have never, and will never, use the term "magic word" because that's ridiculous. But I have said to my daughter "what do you say when you want daddy to do something?"  "Please!"  "Okay, I'll do it."

After she gets what she wants, in the rare occasion that she doesn't say "thank you" I might ask "what do you say when daddy helps you?"  "Thank you."

It isn't about the request itself. It's about the acknowledgement that a) there is dependence; and b) gratitude should be expressed for freely granted help.

Without acknowledgement of dependence or acknowledgement of grant by the other person, you get entitlement. I can't think of a worse lesson for children than entitlement.

Well, okay -- maybe random, unpredictable violence is worse. But even predictable violence is better than entitlement -- the notion that other people are the slaves to your whim. Saying "please" and "thank you" isn't an incantation of magic -- it's the acknowledgement and reminder that requesting that someone else take positive action on your behalf is voluntary. My daughter doesn't ask "why is the sky blue, please?" but she does ask "can I have a marshmallow please?" And there is an ocean of difference between these questions that I'm delighted she understands.

RLujano:

I think that when someone truly helps another person, the least important part is the "Thank you" in his answer.

I think when someone truly needs help from another person, the least important part is the "Please" in the request for help.

Really? Because I think "please" and "thank you" are the parts where the person acknowledges that all cooperative action is voluntary. If you request something and don't say "please," then you are expressing that you're entitled to it. When you receive something and don't say "thank you," you're expressing that it was yours in the first place.

If relationships are voluntary, then "please" and "thank you" are the constant acknowledgements of that fact. When you leave them out, demands become moral obligations and outcomes become logical necessities. No child should believe that preferences are positive obligations on others and that actions are automatic rather than voluntary.

I like Nathan's approach to this.  "Please" and "thank-you" are words like any others in the English language, which are used to communicate and signal certain things -- in this case, acknowledgement of the voluntary nature of interactions, gratitude, etc.  If a child feels "forced" to express these things, perhaps that signals a lack of empathy on the child's part.  i.e. They failed to understand that the favour someone did for them entailed some measure of sacrifice on that person's part.  This is not a slight on anyone here's kids, as I don't know any of them.  I'm speaking more from personal experience of being a child than anything.  Empathy, cooperation, gratitude... these are all things that come with age and experience, and that make autonomous adult life much more efficient and harmonious.

Nathan T. Freeman:

If you request something and don't say "please," then you are expressing that you're entitled to it.

I think you might be stretching this a bit Nathan. I think the entitlement issue is certainly an accusation that was thrown at me as a child for not using these words. I would be careful how you approached this definition on every occassion. Sure polite words have their place in a free and voluntary world, but making a conclusion based upon their 'non use' could be tricky, particularly for children.

The kind of politness I was shovel fed as a child was a lot more than just my percieved 'entitlement'. Much of it was about how I, as a child made an adult feel when I didn't use these words. They would often feel humiliated when in the presence of other adults, which would often precipitate a punishment. That punishment was my cue that in future I should always use these words around authority figures in case I upset them in some way.

Certainly I don't think this is true of you Nathan, given my experience of you on the boards and calls with Stef, but I think it's worth asking yourself how you are feeling when your child forgets to use such terms. Personally I think our children will take their cues from us as parents. We may need to explain the advantages of using such terms, but I'm not sure that we can enforce it by requesting it every time. I hope that makes sense.