Freedomain Radio

I have people telling me, that I'm wrong for questioning their behaviour to ex-partners, that I should be siding with them and not the ex-partner.

Basically they're telling me that in all situations I should be on their side, in good or bad, whether they've done something wrong or not, like they are to me. They also bring up how much they've done for me in this context. 

This feels very wrong to me in my gut. I can't bring myself to be like this. I just can't. I have not asked for their loyalty, as I don't think I find it to be a virtue. I want people to tell me when I'm wrong. 

 

Please tell me your thoughts on this and your philosophical reasoning as to whether loyalty is a virtue or not.

 

No it's not a virtue at all.. What you're friends are really saying is...

'tell me I'm a good person whether I do a virtuous thing or not, regardless of my behaviour'.

I think Stef did a podcast on this kind of behaviour, but he was relating it to people that refer to 'taking the high road' or 'rising above it' as virtuous acts. When all they really do is reward piss poor behaviour.

The only time 'loyalty' might be a decider, is when you are unsure of what has happened. But your experience of them in the past has been virtuous. In this case you may give that person the benefit of the doubt perhaps. But loyalty without looking at the evidence is for the birds.

I hope that helps

Mira:

I have people telling me, that I'm wrong for questioning their behaviour to ex-partners, that I should be siding with them and not the ex-partner.

Basically they're telling me that in all situations I should be on their side, in good or bad, whether they've done something wrong or not, like they are to me. They also bring up how much they've done for me in this context. 

This feels very wrong to me in my gut. I can't bring myself to be like this. I just can't. I have not asked for their loyalty, as I don't think I find it to be a virtue. I want people to tell me when I'm wrong. 

 

Please tell me your thoughts on this and your philosophical reasoning as to whether loyalty is a virtue or not.

 

Well, to turn the example on it's head, would they be loyal to you if/when you don't stick by their side? Do they stick by your side when you are "incorrect" for not sticking to theirs?

Mira:

This feels very wrong to me in my gut. I can't bring myself to be like this. I just can't. I have not asked for their loyalty, as I don't think I find it to be a virtue. I want people to tell me when I'm wrong.

If the logic will help, they're not very loyal to this part of you, standing by its side and so on. They're loyal to a vice.

Loyalty to virtue is great, I think. You should be loyal to this part of you which wants honesty and not a coverup of vice.

Mira:

Basically they're telling me that in all situations I should be on their side, in good or bad, whether they've done something wrong or not, like they are to me. They also bring up how much they've done for me in this context.

It sounds like they don't share your values, so they're asking you to change your values. Are they open to changing their values? Your values are better, after all.

When your friend treats their ex-partner badly; isn't this an example of disloyalty?  Surely loyalty demands we make an effort to maintain good relations even after the love has gone out of a relationship.

BrianMankin:

When your friend treats their ex-partner badly; isn't this an example of disloyalty?  Surely loyalty demands we make an effort to maintain good relations even after the love has gone out of a relationship.

That's a great question. I think she'll find out that her friends merely want to maintain ready-made social circles regardless of how hellish they are.

This has to be one of the foremost curses we're fighting here. You're disloyal!! You want to abolish the ready-made state?! You want to leave your family?! This must be a cult, since ready-made social circles are the only ways people can interact and this place isn't acting like one should!! Why did you ban that guy?!?!?!?!?!1112pages Stef is a bad leader and his inner (social) circle controls everyone and is so mean to people!!

No one is allowed to have a place to come where you're an independent person exchanging valuable ideas with others who are interested and then perhaps some friendships may organically result. Nope. You have to go to a place that offers friendships, like schools or a club, join with some people there forever, and that's how friendships work!

Mira:

I have people telling me, that I'm wrong for questioning their behaviour to ex-partners, that I should be siding with them and not the ex-partner.

Basically they're telling me that in all situations I should be on their side, in good or bad, whether they've done something wrong or not, like they are to me. They also bring up how much they've done for me in this context. 

This feels very wrong to me in my gut. I can't bring myself to be like this. I just can't. I have not asked for their loyalty, as I don't think I find it to be a virtue. I want people to tell me when I'm wrong. 

 

Please tell me your thoughts on this and your philosophical reasoning as to whether loyalty is a virtue or not.

 

 

Not sure if this is useful, but what came to my head is...IF loyalty is a virtue, and your friend/s are right, than they SHOULD be "siding" with you even when you're "siding" with their ex partner. Or...they SHOULD be on your side, good or bad, they SHOULD be on your side even when you are not loyal. No?

Edit: Whoops, this was already mentioned.

Mira:

I'm scared that I will be alone. 

 

I thought "Maybe you already are alone in relation to your friends?"

Not sure if you've heard this podcast, but it seems like it fits the topic. http://media.freedomainradio.com/feed/FDR_1575_you_are_not_alone_dr_schwartz_interview.mp3

Mira:

I'm just really emotionally confused. I wish I could distance myself from these people but it feels so hard. I'm scared that I will be alone. Also they keep acting like I'm the one who is wrong, I'm the one having difficulties fitting in with society.

Yes, I sympathise with this feeling of course, it can feel quite terrifying I recall. These are people you've gotten to know over the years, for all manner of reasons probably. You should know though, that philosophy 'never demands' you change your relationships. So probably best to go easy on yourself, you don't have to do anything immediately of course.

Probably the best way to handle those anxious feelings at first, is to just ask yourself, 'why' am I feeling anxious? You'll get a whole lot of useful information about yourself, as well as the people you interact with. You can then start to ask how much evidence there might be for those conclusions you come too about your feelings. Sometimes anxiety is born out of ambiguity (confusion), insofar as once you discover the source of your anxiety, you are often more able to act on that and finally resolve your anxiety.

But it can't be re-iterated enough, anxiety is trying to tell you something very useful and helpful. I hope that made sense.

Loyalty is most certainly an anti-virtue where it means loyalty to falsehood or to treacherous individuals rather than to truth and honest people.

Loyalty is a shortcut we take when interacting with people (or businesses) who have a known good history.

Loyalty is a behavior. A behavior is neither a virtue nor an anti-virtue.

Nor can loyalty be intrinsically virtuous. If someone's current behavior is at odds with their historical behavior we should respond to their current behavior by abandoning our loyalty, rather than responding as if they were continuing with the past virtuous behavior that earned them our loyalty in the past.

Hi again. I hope you will take some time to answer some more of my questions regarding this.

 

So the problem is this: They have been very generous to me in many ways, with time and resources. However, I strongly feel that they are not nice/fair to other people. They constantly bad mouth other peope, calling them names. They are not honest to them, even to the point of intentionally going behind their backs.

I can't judge a person only by how they are to me, right?

There are mixed emotions - i feel like i should be grateful for the help they have given, but there's some bitterness and discomfort in all of this. Quite a lot actually.

I can't decide if they're good people or not, I'm too mixed up in their world to think straight.

But it seems to me they are very loving and generous to people who are on their "own team" so to speak, people who are on their good side.

But I'm really scared of being on their wrong side.

When I question this, they usually let me know that these people "deserve it".

I feel there's an aggressivness whenever I question.

Also, it seems to me I often end up in this position of feeling like I owe people for what they give me....sometimes it's not even things that I appreciate.

I can't really appreciate these gifts for some reason. 

I guess I'm answering my own questions...

but anything that you'd like to say, analyze, add or comment, I'd appreciate it.

I often go back to thinking that maybe I'm imagining it, that I'm the one who don't see clearly, I don't know.

 

Mira:

I can't judge a person only by how they are to me, right?

Well, the point of judging isn't to determine where someone is on some heavenly scoreboard or something. If these people mistreat those close to them and they've made no significant change ethically since that, they might do those things to you, since how are you really different?

Mira:

But I'm really scared of being on their wrong side.

Right. You look at the evidence. Why wouldn't they do the same thing to you?

Mira:

I often go back to thinking that maybe I'm imagining it, that I'm the one who don't see clearly, I don't know.

This is a common way to try to get rid of that fear. What they did to the others might be really frightening for you. This pretending not to see is a way to try to get them to not do the same thing to you.

It's the same sort of thing that leads people to just be quiet when they witness any kind of abuse. Maybe being attacked by the abuser is very scary.

Mira:

I feel there's an aggressivness whenever I question.

Trust your feelings, they are giving you valuable information.. Sounds like you're having to walk on eggshells, so to speak.

Mira:

There are mixed emotions - i feel like i should be grateful for the help they have given, but there's some bitterness and discomfort in all of this. Quite a lot actually.

I can't decide if they're good people or not, I'm too mixed up in their world to think straight.

If I may, what do you consider as their best traits?