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Latest post Thu, Mar 1 2012 1:29 PM by Stephen C. 35 replies.
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  • Thu, Jan 26 2012 6:34 PM

    Goodbye

    It has taken me a long time to see clearly the inconsistencies at FDR, but even when I did see them, I did not leave straightaway.

    I've been able to offer value to some people, which is very satisfying. However, I wonder why I stay.

    First I stopped donating, and emailed Stef that I was losing interest in being a part of it for the lack of focus on self-knowledge. Then gradually stopped listening to podcasts - I have only ever taken interest in the ones regarding self-knowledge. I've run through all of the ideas, applying them to my life, refining and rethinking them, trying for consistency and trying to make them work. 

    Now I only participate on the boards.

    3.5 years ago I thought I found a replacement for my chronically violent and dysfunctional family and intolerable social atmosphere and abandonment-filled friendships, where I felt I had no support. I came here thinking I would make good friends because only wise and exceptional people would participate and share the values we talk about. I am embarrassed to say, an elite group of individuals who alone have the answers to the questions in the world. We could rebel from unjust authorities, find true intimacy and worth, and do things the right way - the rest of mankind be damned.

    It wasn't my fault that I was set up to have the wrong ideas about things. I thought I saw an oasis - it was a mirage. More than that, it was a grandiose fantasy springing from a lifetime of bring crushed. I do not minimize the genuineness of the desire - but it was out of touch with reality.

    I discovered plenty of dysfunction, and that we don't have the answers at all.

    I idealized!

    And then I devalued.

    And then I saw the pattern, changed my thinking, and reached some sort of equilibrium.

    I still learned a lot and met interesting people. I met my fiance through the community. I've had many interesting and challenging conversations. Yet, I've also experienced the dark side. I've even been part of it.

    How could I reconcile my experiences here?

    Self-knowledge.

    It's just that when I grow to a certain point, I also discover that FDR has not escaped the matrix.

    If anyone wishes to contact me, please send an email through my profile or this temporary email (with a ridiculous name lol) tlairryowor@dunflimblag.mailexpire.com

    Goodbye.

    Self-knowledge. Not self-erasure.

     

  • Thu, Jan 26 2012 9:51 PM In reply to

    • Kevin
    • Top 500 Contributor
    • Joined on Wed, Aug 24 2011
    • United States
    • Posts 150
    • Philosopher King

    Re: Goodbye

    Sorry to hear that you are having such a difficult time. Sorry to hear about your past relationships. Glad to hear about your present one. I hope you figure out the problems that you don't feel are being solved in the FDR community. Getting out of the matrix and all that. 

    Goodbye

    "From each according to their ability to each according to their need", only peacefully.

  • Thu, Jan 26 2012 10:30 PM In reply to

    Re: Goodbye

    Thanks Kevin

    Would just like to reaffirm that anyone interested in talking to me outside of FDR is most welcome to, you have my respect.

    I only no longer consider myself affiliated with the group.

    Hajnal

    Self-knowledge. Not self-erasure.

     

  • Fri, Jan 27 2012 1:14 AM In reply to

    • Metric
    • Top 75 Contributor
    • Joined on Mon, Apr 27 2009
    • Posts 663
    • Bronze Donator

    Re: Goodbye

    Sorry to see you go.  I agree with you that there are some slightly strange group dynamics around here sometimes, but I don't feel affiliated with anything.  I'm just a guy who gets some enjoyment out of stef's youtube channel, and discussing a few of my favorite subjects.  I just want to invite you to take a pressure-free approach to posting here -- i.e. feel free to randomly post when/if you feel like it, even after you've "formally quit."

    All the best.

  • Fri, Jan 27 2012 1:21 AM In reply to

    • Mira
    • Top 500 Contributor
    • Joined on Thu, Jan 14 2010
    • Posts 76

    Re: Goodbye

    Hi Hajnal, even if we did not talk so much, I'd love to stay in touch with you. All the best.

     

  • Fri, Jan 27 2012 1:22 AM In reply to

    • f.b.m
    • Top 500 Contributor
    • Joined on Tue, Oct 19 2010
    • Posts 100

    Re: Goodbye

    Just wanted to say that I had really grown to like your posts. And that I have learned a fair bit about empathy and curiosity from you (and bricks) and would love to see what youre upto in the future..

    So thanks and goodbye..

  • Fri, Jan 27 2012 9:40 AM In reply to

    Re: Goodbye

    Hajnal:
    I am embarrassed to say, an elite group of individuals who alone have the answers to the questions in the world. We could rebel from unjust authorities, find true intimacy and worth, and do things the right way - the rest of mankind be damned.

    Perhaps I misinterpreted this, but I thought it was snide.

    If it's possible to save or resuce mankind then it stands to reason that one should begin by saving or rescuing the abusers in one's own life and then progress from there.

  • Fri, Jan 27 2012 9:42 AM In reply to

    • Stephen C
    • Top 200 Contributor
    • Joined on Thu, Jun 5 2008
    • Brooklyn, NY
    • Posts 329
    • Diamond Donator

    Re: Goodbye

    No...no...no, you can't leave. Who am I going to creepily stalk?! Argh, I can't creepily stalk you through email, that's too creepy stalky even for me. 

    Ok, on a more serious note...

    Whoa, you broke the Matrix!

    A part of me is skeptical. This part says "How many times has Haj said one of these goodbyes? She'll be back."

    BUT, another part of me scolds that skeptical part and is...hopeful..and says something like...

    "It's pretty hard to fly if you stay in the nest."

    And, I'm reminded of that scene in "Good Will Hunting"...

    "You're sitting on a winning lottery ticket." ... "I think maybe I'll get up there and I'll knock on the door and you won't be there. No goodbye, no see you later, no nothin. Just left."

    Regardless of what you do, I'm sure you'll do it big. :)

    Sorry if this response comes across as condescending, it might be that, but consciously that's not my intention as far as I can tell. 

    Bye Hajnal!

     

     

     

     

    Self =/= Intellectual Part

    "a self attack is what happens when we FORGET something.
    we attack ourselves whenever we forgot who we are.
    when we separate from the love that we are, we start to fight with ourselves.
    but we forgot that we don't like to fight because we are love." 

    "the things that people say are their worst qualities are usually their finest qualities
    when you can find this to be true in you, you will find a much better opinion of yourself" ~ Dee

  • Fri, Jan 27 2012 10:47 AM In reply to

    Re: Goodbye

    Stephen C:
    A part of me is skeptical. This part says "How many times has Haj said one of these goodbyes? She'll be back."

    People who post "Goodbye" messages to online forums still have a strong connection to the forum, and they often come back.

    People who fade away without posting "Goodbye" (because they have lost all interest) don't come back so often.

  • Fri, Jan 27 2012 11:04 AM In reply to

    Re: Goodbye

    Woah - and how often have I noticed "Hajnal" at the top of the Most Active User list?

    I have been disillusioned about FDR, but I've adjusted and lowered my expectations, which were pretty vague, of course, when I first arrived here. My previous site for communicating with others of like mind was a gnostic site, so it was quite a change. It's not supportive, emotionally, to be a member of FDR, and that may be a more serious problem than I realize, and that may indicate that "the matrix" has not been affected by FDR's presence, but I do find good value here nevertheless.

    There are inconsistencies, as you call them. But if it isn't perfect, does that mean it should be abandoned?

    No one can prescribe for any other the path they should take as their intuition informs them, toward their goals as they perceive them. Under the surface, as it were, I at least bear no ill will toward anyone on the boards, which naturally includes those I disagree with. If you need to leave, I sincerely send you every good wish for satisfaction elsewhere. 

     

  • Fri, Jan 27 2012 9:13 PM In reply to

    Re: Goodbye

    I never know what people mean when they talk about FDR like it has characteristics. FDR is not a thing. 

  • Fri, Jan 27 2012 9:47 PM In reply to

    • Stephen C
    • Top 200 Contributor
    • Joined on Thu, Jun 5 2008
    • Brooklyn, NY
    • Posts 329
    • Diamond Donator

    Re: Goodbye

    Phil Crimmins:

    I never know what people mean when they talk about FDR like it has characteristics. FDR is not a thing. 

    What's not a thing?

    Edit: Are you ok, Phil?

    Self =/= Intellectual Part

    "a self attack is what happens when we FORGET something.
    we attack ourselves whenever we forgot who we are.
    when we separate from the love that we are, we start to fight with ourselves.
    but we forgot that we don't like to fight because we are love." 

    "the things that people say are their worst qualities are usually their finest qualities
    when you can find this to be true in you, you will find a much better opinion of yourself" ~ Dee

  • Fri, Jan 27 2012 10:04 PM In reply to

    • Mikhail
    • Top 200 Contributor
    • Joined on Sun, Jan 25 2009
    • Grand Island, NY
    • Posts 312
    • Philosopher King

    Re: Goodbye

    Phil Crimmins:

    I never know what people mean when they talk about FDR like it has characteristics. FDR is not a thing. 

    And Phil just hit the ball out of the park.

  • Fri, Jan 27 2012 10:39 PM In reply to

    Re: Goodbye

    Oh interesting that you were wondering if I was OK. Were you worried that I was not in self when I wrote that? 

    To clarify what I mean by "FDR is not a thing", I am simply referring to the epistemological truth that "FDR" is just a concept. Its a really useful concept that puts the podcasts, the website, the chatroom, the boards, the board members, and the host all under one umbrella. It is for this reason, though, that FDR cannot have characteristics like a person does. FDR cannot be inconsistent, because FDR is just a concept. 

    So when I read Haj say something about "the inconsistencies at FDR", I don't know what she's referring to. Its like me saying "I see the inconsistencies at Wal-Mart". Am I referring to the executives? The CEO? The employees? Their recent marketing ideas? 

    I'm not pointing this out to be derisive to Haj, I've seen this happen a lot. I just think its worth a closer look and clarification when referring to FDR like its a thing. Does that make sense? I can't touch FDR, its just a concept.

    Also, just to add, not just because of the ideas talked about at FDR, but through the mutual exploration of these ideas (and lots of therapy) I have found a lot of amazing friendships. They have far surpassed my expectations, so I hope Haj's post doesn't discourage people from finding great people here. I completely agree with Haj that not "only wise and exceptional people" participate here. However, her experience is not universal...my friends and I can vouche for that.  

  • Sat, Jan 28 2012 3:22 AM In reply to

    • Ivan
    • Top 500 Contributor
    • Joined on Fri, May 7 2010
    • Berkeley
    • Posts 166

    Re: Goodbye

    Phil Crimmins:

    I never know what people mean when they talk about FDR like it has characteristics. FDR is not a thing. 

     

    ^This.

     

    I became very frustrated during the recent events surrounding JegSomHeter aka Sebastian being banned. On the opposite side of the fence, I perceived folks like Hajnal to be the "in crowd" that was becoming anti-philosophical, the enemy within the city, while the fine folks criticizing the hasty ban were the "saviors" of FDR. Well, inevitably when you polarize yourself on an idea so strongly, seeing go exactly the wrong way will make you quite resentful. I had similar thoughts about leaving the boards.

     

    But I cooled off and had some time to think. I found it useful to take a step back, and look at what's actually going on here. We're talking about a forum on the Internet. This is not a commune; we don't rely on each other to live. This is not the fate of the universe at stake, or of humanity. Not even Stef's legacy will be greatly affected by anything that happens on the boards; his works stand on their own, and though the content of the boards have often been a source of inspiration for some of what he talks about, he certainly does not need any particular member here. Nothing critical to any of our lives is lost if people abandon ship. And even if everyone leaves, the general trend of market anarchism exists elsewhere and is increasingly penetrating the political sphere and its fringes. The movement for child advocacy, and self-knowledge, and therapy versus psychiatry, and unschooling, and all these great ideas, these are not limited to "FDR", whatever that even means. Is the body of work, the books, the podcast, the videos, is that not FDR? I find it strange that we should be talking about those three letters as if it should mean some abstract community. So, I have to ask, what exactly is it that these series of people leaving, and sometimes denouncing with righteous fervor, are disenchanted with?

     

    I can only answer for myself. I don't mean to hijack this thread, but it seems it will do no harm since Hajnal has expressed her intention not to return anyway. So I will say this: for me, it is a disappointment set up by excessive expectations. It had little to do with the actual ideals of what is generally understood to be FDR. Yes, somewhere at the heart of it, I thought "yeah, we're gonna smash the State!", "yeah, we're gonna raise children and save the world through peace and love, sans hippie hedonism", all that good stuff. But there was so much more that I wanted. Are we not all tired of living in the matrix? Every day of our lives, living amongst people largely blind to their own minds, living with their hatred and their desires to use and abuse us, living with lies and brutality, and of course it's more than we can bear. We're tired of it. I hope I am not speaking too generally, too assuming. I know it is true for my mind. So to see that we haven't changed, that we're still so very human even in conversations with people who hold the highest ideals, that is a depressing disappointment of the worst sort, isn't it? It is as though my heart would cry out, "if it cannot remain pure here, then where?!".

    For me too, this was a mirage of sorts. Why I thought one man from the suburbs of Toronto could work out all the answers and save the world, I don't know. I do know that it makes no sense to be resentful of what he never claimed. I still appreciate FDR for what it is, an amazing resource for philosophical thinking and a hub for many cool people. But we're so early in the game. We're living in the prologue to what will be utopia's ancient history. The oasis still awaits us, somewhere. Hell, there won't be just one oasis. There never is. It starts somewhere, but water tends to flow. Why would we think the roots of utopia would grow in one place and only there?

     

    But there's no shame in being human. People have conflict, it's inevitable. The nature of that conflict is what we can control. No one has murdered each other because of a debate held here. We don't typically resort to vicious ad homs and death threats. It is one of the most civil environments for conversation that I've ever witnessed. If that means being vulnerable to the occasional over-psychologizing, I say so be it! I won't hijack this thread. But I do think this is a topic worth discussing at another time, in another thread or somewhere else. Why do some people become so emotionally invested in "FDR"?

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