Freedomain Radio

in
Latest post Sat, Jan 28 2012 10:17 PM by eulercircles. 69 replies.
Page 1 of 5 (70 items) 1 2 3 4 5 Next >
Sort Posts: Previous Next
  • Sun, Jan 22 2012 12:10 PM

    • hazek
    • Top 500 Contributor
    • Joined on Sun, Jan 30 2011
    • Posts 194

    UPB tells us 2+2=5 and then says 5=4 making it invalid

     

     

    I finally got around to reading this book trying to understand what the fuss is all about and I have to confess my ADD just wouldn't allow me to get through all of it. I mean I appreciate the attempt that has been made and I'm sure there's valuble thinking in there somewhere but it is also invalid as a framework for a science of testing for objective morality.

     

    I think, and I could be stupid and completely wrong, but this is what doesn't make any sense to me:

    Self-Defeating Arguments

    In order to begin our discussion of ethics, it is essential that we understand the nature of self-defeating arguments.

    In economics, a theory cannot be valid if it requires that prices go up and down at the same time. In physics, a theory cannot be valid if it requires that gases expand and contract simultaneously. In mathematics, a theory cannot be valid if it requires that two plus two equals five, since “five” is just another way of describing two plus three, not two plus two, and so to say that two plus two equals five is to say that five equals four, which is self-contradictory.

    In general, any theory that contradicts itself in the utterance cannot be valid. It does not require external disproof, since it disproves itself. We do not need to examine every nook and cranny in the universe to determine that a “square circle” does not exist. The very concept is self-contradictory, and thus disproves itself in the utterance.

    Ok, fair enough, why then say this:

    Preferences

    Now that we understand the nature of self-defeating arguments, we can turn to the question of preferences.

    Preferences are central to any methodology claiming to define the truth-value of propositions. The scientific method, for instance, is largely defined by innate preferences for logical consistency and empirical verification. For science, the premise is: if you want to determine a valid truth about the behaviour of matter and energy, it is preferable to use the scientific method.

    In this sense, “preferable” does not mean “sort of better,” but rather “required.” If you want to live, it is universally preferable that you refrain from eating a handful of arsenic. If you wish to determine valid truths about reality, it is universally preferable that your theories be both internally consistent and empirically verifiable. “Universally preferable,” then, translates to “objectively required,” but we will retain the word “preferable” to differentiate between optional human absolutes and non-optional physical absolutes such as gravity.

    Ok wait what? somehow a preference:

    pref·er·ence   [pref-er-uhns, pref-ruhns]  Show IPA

    noun

    1. the act of preferring.

    2. the state of being preferred.

    3. that which is preferred;  choice: His preference is vanilla, notchocolate.

    4. a practical advantage given to one over others.

    5. a prior right or claim, as to payment of dividends or to assetsupon dissolution.

    has the same meaning as requirement:

    re·quire·ment   [ri-kwahyuhr-muhnt]  Show IPA

    noun

    1. that which is required;  a thing demanded or obligatory: Oneof the requirements of the job is accuracy.

    2. an act or instance of requiring.

    3. a need or necessity: to meet the requirements of daily life.

    Isn't this essentially saying 2+2=5 oh and also 5=4?! What is the purpose of him saying preferences are central to any methodology claiming to define the truth-value of propositions if it's not a preference but a requirement?! To make his theory sound better? I'm supremely lost. If one wants to live it's not preferred to not eat arsenic but it is REQUIRED. If one wishes to determine valid truths about reality, it is not universally preferable that their theories be both internally consistent and empirically verifiable it is REQUIRED.

    And this is how he explains his 2+2=5=4

    “Universally preferable,” then, translates to “objectively required,” but we will retain the word “preferable” to differentiate between optional human absolutes and non-optional physical absolutes such as gravity.

    So the reason for 2+2=5=4 is so that we can pretend that what is REQUIRED for every other methodology claiming to define the truth-value of propositions isn't merely a subjective preference when it comes defining the truth-value of propositions about human absolutes.

    From his book:

    The fundamental difference between statements of preference and statements of fact is that statements of fact are objective, testable – and binding.

    So what's up with that? 

    However, if I tell him that it is moral for sons to obey their fathers, and immoral for them to disobey their fathers, then I am proposing a preference that is universal, rather than merely personal –
    actually you are proposing a personal subjective preference that has an objective and universal requirement
    I am trying to turn a “little truth” (I want you to become a baseball player) into a “great truth” (It is immoral for sons to disobey fathers). If he wishes to be moral, he must become a baseball player – not because becoming a baseball player is moral, but rather because obeying his father is moral.
    More like “specific preference” into a "general preference" or in other words if he wants to be moral ACCORDING TO YOU it is ALWAYS REQUIRED to always obey his father.

    He says so himself in the very next sentence:

    When I speak of a universal preference, I am really defining what is objectively required, or necessary, assuming a particular goal.

    Yeah Stef, what/who's goal? The son being moral according to his father.

    Trying to convince us 5=4 some more:

    If I want to live, I do not have to like jazz, but I must eat. “Eating” remains a preference – I do not have to eat, in the same way that I have to obey gravity – but “eating” is a universal, objective, and binding requirement for staying alive, since it relies on biological facts that cannot be wished away.
     No, if your subjective goal is to live, it is REQUIRED to eat, not a preference. Absent this goal it becomes a subjective preference as is with living. Were you somehow trying to show us that living is universally preferable?

    Ethics as a discipline can be defined as any theory regarding preferable human behaviour that is universal, objective, consistent – and binding. Naturally, preferential behaviour can only be binding if the goal is desired. If I say that it is preferable for human beings to exercise and eat well, I am not saying that human beings must not sit on the couch and eat potato chips. What I am saying is that if you want to be healthy, you should exercise and eat well.

    NOT TRUE! The truth is:

    Ethics as a discipline can be defined as any theory regarding REQUIRED human behaviour that is universal, objective, consistent – and binding. Naturally, REQUIRED behavior is only REQUIRED if the GOAL is desired. If I say that it is REQUIRED for human beings to exercise and eat well, I am not saying that human beings must not sit on the couch and eat potato chips. What I am saying is that IF you want to be healthy, you HAVE to exercise and eat well.

     

    Ok now on to the crux of where the problem actually is:

    Premise 4: Correction Requires Universal Preferences

    If you correct me on an error that I have made, you are implicitly accepting the fact that it would be better for me to correct my error. Your preference for me to correct my error is not subjective, but objective, and universal.

    You don’t say to me: “You should change your opinion to mine because I would prefer it,” but rather: “You should correct your opinion because it is objectively incorrect.” My error does not arise from merely disagreeing with you, but as a result of my deviance from an objective standard of truth. Your argument that I should correct my false opinion rests on the objective value of truth – i.e. that truth is universally preferable to error, and that truth is universally objective.

     

    INVALID:

    If you correct me on an error that I have made, you are implicitly accepting the fact that it would be better for me to correct my error. Your preference for me to correct my error is not subjective, but objective, and universal.

    No, I am not implicitly accepting the fact that it would be better for you to correct your error, I'm merely displaying my subjective preference for correcting an error which just so happens to be yours. How you came to my preference for your actions where you can objectively only show my subjective preference in this conclusion is beyond me. Maybe I like correcting your errors? Maybe I like you keep making errors so I can keep correcting them?

    What he tries to do with this premise 4 is to say that 2+2=5 but really it's =4 but no wait it's  =5. Not that it would reveal any objective truth but he is trying to prove my subjective preference for someone else's actions where he can only prove my subjective preference for my own actions and the requirement given my desired goal. He is trying to make an argument for someone else to correct their error where he can only make an argument what is objectively required of me to correct any error if that is my subjective goal.

    Because there's no objective preference for someone else's actions proven it detonates premise 6:

    Premise 6: Truth Is Better Than Falsehood

    If I tell you that the world is flat, and you reply that the world is not flat, but round, then you are implicitly accepting the axiom that truth and falsehood both exist objectively, and that truth is better than falsehood.

    If I tell you that I like chocolate ice cream, and you tell me that you like vanilla, it is impossible to “prove” that vanilla is objectively better than chocolate. The moment that you correct me with reference to objective facts, you are accepting that objective facts exist, and that objective truth is universally preferable to subjective error.

     

    INVALID:

    Premise 6: Truth Is Better Than Falsehood

    If I tell you that the world is flat, and you reply that the world is not flat, but round, then you are implicitly accepting the axiom that truth and falsehood both exist objectively, and that truth is better than falsehood.

    How is truth better than falsehood exactly derived from the above argument? All we can derive from the above argument is that falsehood and truth both objectively exist, period.

    The moment that you correct me with reference to objective facts, you are accepting that objective facts exist, and that objective truth is universally preferable to subjective error.

    Again, how exactly have I accepted that objective truth is universally preferable to subjective error? No preference for someone else's actions of any kind in regards with truth has been established thus far other than my own subjective preference of wanting to correct errors.

     

    Premise 7: Peaceful Debating Is The Best Way To Resolve Disputes

    If I tell you that the world is flat, and you pull out a gun and shoot me, this would scarcely be an example of a productive debate. True, our disagreement would have been “resolved” – but because only one of us was left standing at the end.

    If you told me in advance that you would deal with any disagreement by shooting me, I would be unlikely to engage in a debate with you. Thus it is clear that any debate relies on the implicit premise that evidence, reason, truth and objectivity are the universally preferable methods of resolving disputes between individuals. It would be completely illogical to argue that differences of opinion should be resolved through the use of violence – the only consistent argument for the value of violence is the use of violence.[4]

    In essence, then, debating requires an objective methodology, through meaningful language, in the pursuit of universal truth, which is objectively preferable to personal error.

    This preference for universal truth is not a preference of degree, but of kind. A shortcut that reduces your driving time by half is twice as good as a longer route – but both are infinitely preferable to driving in the completely wrong direction.

    In the same way, the truth is not just “better” than error – it is infinitely preferable, or required.

     

     

    INVALID:

    Thus it is clear that any debate relies on the implicit premise that evidence, reason, truth and objectivity are the universally preferable methods of resolving disputes between individuals.

    Not true, you haven't established universal preference for evidence, reason, truth and objectivity being universally preferable methods of resolving disputes, but that violence isn't, and this being your own subjective preference, not universal in any sense.

    In essence, then, debating requires an objective methodology, through meaningful language, in the pursuit of universal truth, which is objectively preferable to personal error.

    You mean debating with YOU requires..

     

    This preference for universal truth is not a preference of degree, but of kind. A shortcut that reduces your driving time by half is twice as good as a longer route – but both are infinitely preferable to driving in the completely wrong direction.

    In the same way, the truth is not just “better” than error – it is infinitely preferable, or required.

     

    YES! If one wants to debate with YOU, the truth is not preferable but a requirement, you made that very clear.

    Premise 8: Individuals Are Responsible For Their Actions

    If I argue that human beings are not responsible for their actions, I am caught in a paradox, which is the question of whether or not I am responsible for my argument, and also whether or not you are responsible for your response.

    If my argument that human beings are not responsible for their actions is true, then I am not responsible for my argument, and you are not responsible for your reply. However, if I believe that you are not responsible for your reply, it would make precious little sense to advance an argument – it would be exactly the same as arguing with a television set.[5]

    Thus, fundamentally, if I tell you that you are not responsible for your actions, I am telling you that it is universally preferable for you to believe that preference is impossible, since if you have no control over your actions, you cannot choose a preferred state, i.e. truth over falsehood. Thus this argument, like the above arguments, self-destructs.

     

    INVALID:

    Thus, fundamentally, if I tell you that you are not responsible for your actions, I am telling you that it is universally preferable for you to believe that preference is impossible, since if you have no control over your actions, you cannot choose a preferred state, i.e. truth over falsehood. Thus this argument, like the above arguments, self-destructs.

    You haven't proven that truth is preferable over falsehood.

     

    INVALID:

    Universally Preferable Behaviour

    As a result of the above arguments, we can see that it is impossible to enter into any debate without accepting the premise that certain behaviours are universally preferable.

    Any debate with YOU maybe.. proves nothing though.

     

    BTW I'm not a philosopher and it could very well be that I simply didn't understand the arguments put forth, but I'm pretty good with logic and his arguments just don't make any sense to me what so ever.

     

    I think going forward it is a mistake to try and find a theory for objective morality based on evaluation of human actions but rather on evaluation of results of human actions. Like gravity it's not really the force we care about but what are it's effects. Like with math with don't really care about formulas but their results. Like with biology we don't really care about how our body grows but that it does.

    Likewise with ethics I think we shouldn't care as much why people suffer but that they do. And if suffering is objectively and universally undesired and therefor immoral, then we can work our way backwards to figure out which actions cause it and are thereby objectively and universally immoral. Just my humble suggestion that is.

    p.s.: I hope I'm wrong.

     

  • Sun, Jan 22 2012 12:41 PM In reply to

    Re: UPB tells us 2+2=5 and then says 5=4 making it invalid

    hazek:
    ...suffering is objectively and universally undesired and therefor immoral...
    What do you define as 'suffering?'

    Why is it always undesired?

    Undesired, by who?

    Why does the fact that something is undesired make it automatically immoral?

     

  • Sun, Jan 22 2012 12:47 PM In reply to

    • hazek
    • Top 500 Contributor
    • Joined on Sun, Jan 30 2011
    • Posts 194

    Re: UPB tells us 2+2=5 and then says 5=4 making it invalid

    MrCapitalism:

    hazek:
    ...suffering is objectively and universally undesired and therefor immoral...
    What do you define as 'suffering?'

    Why is it always undesired?

    Undesired, by who?

    Why does the fact that something is undesired make it automatically immoral?

     

     

    LOOOOOOOOL Figures, the first reply ignores everything of importance and focuses on my modest layman suggestion that I just threw in there for the fun of it and haven't really thought through.. Eye Roll 2

  • Sun, Jan 22 2012 1:16 PM In reply to

    Re: UPB tells us 2+2=5 and then says 5=4 making it invalid

    There's not really anything else worth responding to.

    hazek:
    You haven't proven that truth is preferable over falsehood.

  • Sun, Jan 22 2012 1:27 PM In reply to

    • hazek
    • Top 500 Contributor
    • Joined on Sun, Jan 30 2011
    • Posts 194

    Re: UPB tells us 2+2=5 and then says 5=4 making it invalid

    MrCapitalism:

    There's not really anything else worth responding to.

    hazek:
    You haven't proven that truth is preferable over falsehood.

    I don't understand, are you saying I'm right and UPB is invalid, or are you saying I'm completely wrong and Stef proved objective and universal preference?

  • Sun, Jan 22 2012 9:49 PM In reply to

    • Ivan
    • Top 500 Contributor
    • Joined on Fri, May 7 2010
    • Berkeley
    • Posts 166

    Re: UPB tells us 2+2=5 and then says 5=4 making it invalid

    hazek:

    MrCapitalism:

    There's not really anything else worth responding to.

    hazek:
    You haven't proven that truth is preferable over falsehood.

    I don't understand, are you saying I'm right and UPB is invalid, or are you saying I'm completely wrong and Stef proved objective and universal preference?

     

    I don't mean to speak for MrCapitalism, but what I understood from his response is that, if you're asserting that it needs to be proven that truth is preferable over falsehood, and haven't offered that proof, there's really no reason to believe anyone will learn anything true from your post.

  • Sun, Jan 22 2012 10:19 PM In reply to

    Re: UPB tells us 2+2=5 and then says 5=4 making it invalid

    The fact that you question the truth of something shows that you prefer truth to falsehood, therefore, at least to you, truth is preferable to falsehood. if you extend this to any other mentally sound person, you will probably find that they prefer truth to falsehood as well. This is not to say that nobody ever lies, but it is probably not hard for you to believe that in situations where you do not stand to benefit based on whether you lie or tell the truth, it stands to reason that you are going to prefer the truth.

     

  • Mon, Jan 23 2012 12:06 AM In reply to

    Re: UPB tells us 2+2=5 and then says 5=4 making it invalid

    I don't really like the way hazek worded the post, but he(?) did touch on something I've always felt unsure about with UPB. On what basis do we make the leap from our own personal perferences to universality? There's nothing scientific about assuming other people have the same preferences you do. (i.e. a scientist would not simply make conclusions on the basis of this assumption, but would run tests to try to determine whether it was actually true.) Actually, I find the more I try to stay away from the assumption that other people think (or should think) just like I do, the better I'm able to connect with them. What UPB is promoting here sounds a lot like egocentrism -- a trait possessed by children, that normal people grow out of as part of the process of becoming an adult. And which is about as far away from objectivity as one can get.

    Regarding debates, I guess you could say that the only way it makes sense for people to come together to debate is if they share some preferences such as the preference for truth. But then again, take one look at presidential debates, for example, and it's pretty clear that the goal of debate is not necessarily truth. The goal can be simply to get people to buy the story you're selling.

    There are some musings; not entirely sure where I'm going with them. Thoughts, anyone?

  • Mon, Jan 23 2012 3:52 AM In reply to

    Re: UPB tells us 2+2=5 and then says 5=4 making it invalid

    Annabelle:

    I don't really like the way hazek worded the post, but he(?) did touch on something I've always felt unsure about with UPB. On what basis do we make the leap from our own personal perferences to universality? There's nothing scientific about assuming other people have the same preferences you do. (i.e. a scientist would not simply make conclusions on the basis of this assumption, but would run tests to try to determine whether it was actually true.) Actually, I find the more I try to stay away from the assumption that other people think (or should think) just like I do, the better I'm able to connect with them. What UPB is promoting here sounds a lot like egocentrism -- a trait possessed by children, that normal people grow out of as part of the process of becoming an adult. And which is about as far away from objectivity as one can get.

    Regarding debates, I guess you could say that the only way it makes sense for people to come together to debate is if they share some preferences such as the preference for truth. But then again, take one look at presidential debates, for example, and it's pretty clear that the goal of debate is not necessarily truth. The goal can be simply to get people to buy the story you're selling.

    There are some musings; not entirely sure where I'm going with them. Thoughts, anyone?

    I quite agree with everything you've said here. Ditto. Interesting point about the egocentrism.

    Would also like to echo that the tone of the OP is more likely to scare people away or otherwise result in people not wanting to listen. Of course, countless critics of UPB, both polite and impolite, have found it difficult to have their criticisms be acknowledged. Perhaps this year, that will change. But I know for certain, based on experience, that a condescending tone gets a lot worse reception here.

    Self-knowledge. Not self-erasure.

     

  • Mon, Jan 23 2012 7:49 AM In reply to

    • hazek
    • Top 500 Contributor
    • Joined on Sun, Jan 30 2011
    • Posts 194

    Re: UPB tells us 2+2=5 and then says 5=4 making it invalid

    Hajnal:

    Annabelle:

    I don't really like the way hazek worded the post, but he(?) did touch on something I've always felt unsure about with UPB. On what basis do we make the leap from our own personal perferences to universality? There's nothing scientific about assuming other people have the same preferences you do. (i.e. a scientist would not simply make conclusions on the basis of this assumption, but would run tests to try to determine whether it was actually true.) Actually, I find the more I try to stay away from the assumption that other people think (or should think) just like I do, the better I'm able to connect with them. What UPB is promoting here sounds a lot like egocentrism -- a trait possessed by children, that normal people grow out of as part of the process of becoming an adult. And which is about as far away from objectivity as one can get.

    Regarding debates, I guess you could say that the only way it makes sense for people to come together to debate is if they share some preferences such as the preference for truth. But then again, take one look at presidential debates, for example, and it's pretty clear that the goal of debate is not necessarily truth. The goal can be simply to get people to buy the story you're selling.

    There are some musings; not entirely sure where I'm going with them. Thoughts, anyone?

    I quite agree with everything you've said here. Ditto. Interesting point about the egocentrism.

    Would also like to echo that the tone of the OP is more likely to scare people away or otherwise result in people not wanting to listen. Of course, countless critics of UPB, both polite and impolite, have found it difficult to have their criticisms be acknowledged. Perhaps this year, that will change. But I know for certain, based on experience, that a condescending tone gets a lot worse reception here.

    Someone just needs to have the guts to stand up and say it like it is: "The emperor has no clothes!"

     

    I admit my tone could have been more neutral and respectful but I honestly couldn't help myself. 

    I take the same sort of tone towards people who believe in fairy tales and imaginary friends and I believe ridicule and condescension are appropriate responses to similarly silly beliefs and theories. Treating them seriously just gives them way more credibility than they deserve IMO, after all we're the rational ones, we're the ones who follow the empirical evidence wherever it may lead us, we're the ones who will not claim we know something unless we can prove it.

    I know, I know, in social circles it's hard to maintain relationships, "win" arguments and persuade people if you don't show at least some respect for the other side's positions and I truly do hope people who read my OP are able to look past my tone and focus more on the evidence presented but I don't regret the tone. Silly ideas just need to be ridiculed. And Stef's idea that my personal subjective preference is somehow an universal objective requirement is silly to say the least and "The emperor has no clothes!".

     

    EDIT: Actually I did go back and removed some of the really bad tone and irrelevant stuff right at the begining of my OP.

  • Mon, Jan 23 2012 8:16 AM In reply to

    • GregG
    • Top 10 Contributor
    • Joined on Tue, Feb 21 2006
    • Brooklyn, NY
    • Posts 14,288
    • Philosopher King

    Re: UPB tells us 2+2=5 and then says 5=4 making it invalid

    hazek:
    I'm merely displaying my subjective preference for correcting an error which just so happens to be yours.

    What is this "error" thing you speak of?

    Also, why should any of us here give a damn that it's your preference for... what did you call it? Ah, yes: "correcting" this "error" thing?

  • Mon, Jan 23 2012 8:36 AM In reply to

    Re: UPB tells us 2+2=5 and then says 5=4 making it invalid

    For me, the issue is with UPB not being internally consistent.  Logic and the scientific method are standards I value.  UPB claims to value them as well.  But then the book contains things that are not logical, don't make sense, break with science, etc.  I can't remember if UPB says anything about internal consistency, but I know from podcasts that it's something that Stefan values.  So it's like, UPB very much looks like it's standing out like a sore thumb.  Why aren't other people here seeing this?  Are they trying to use it for something different than I am, and that's why they're getting better results with it? (i.e. feeling like they understand it and can apply it).

  • Mon, Jan 23 2012 8:58 AM In reply to

    • hazek
    • Top 500 Contributor
    • Joined on Sun, Jan 30 2011
    • Posts 194

    Re: UPB tells us 2+2=5 and then says 5=4 making it invalid

    GregG:

    hazek:
    I'm merely displaying my subjective preference for correcting an error which just so happens to be yours.

    What is this "error" thing you speak of?

    Also, why should any of us here give a damn that it's your preference for... what did you call it? Ah, yes: "correcting" this "error" thing?

    First of all, if you're quoting me it would be appreciated if you'd quote the entire counter argument, not just a cop-out:

     

    Premise 4: Correction Requires Universal Preferences

    If you correct me on an error that I have made, you are implicitly accepting the fact that it would be better for me to correct my error. Your preference for me to correct my error is not subjective, but objective, and universal.

    You don’t say to me: “You should change your opinion to mine because I would prefer it,” but rather: “You should correct your opinion because it is objectively incorrect.” My error does not arise from merely disagreeing with you, but as a result of my deviance from an objective standard of truth. Your argument that I should correct my false opinion rests on the objective value of truth – i.e. that truth is universally preferable to error, and that truth is universally objective.

     

     

    INVALID:

    If you correct me on an error that I have made, you are implicitly accepting the fact that it would be better for me to correct my error. Your preference for me to correct my error is not subjective, but objective, and universal.

    No, I am not implicitly accepting the fact that it would be better for you to correct your error, I'm merely displaying my subjective preference for correcting an error which just so happens to be yours. How you came to my preference for your actions where you can objectively only show my subjective preference in this conclusion is beyond me. Maybe I like correcting your errors? Maybe I like you keep making errors so I can keep correcting them?

     

    John says the Earth is round. Bill corrects him and says the Earth is flat.

     

    Did Bill correct John? Yes! 

    Does Bill have an objective and universal preference for John to correct his error? No, we can't possibly know what he wants John to do. Objectively we can only know what Bill has actually done, which is - made a correction. 

    Is Bill saying to John "You should correct your opinion because it is objectively incorrect." No. He is not saying anything of the sorts. 

    Did John make an error as a result of his deviance from an objective standard of truth? No, actually Bill made both the correction and an error as a result of his deviance from an objective standard of truth, weird huh? 

    Is there an argument that John should correct his opinion? No, Bill said nothing of the sorts, Bill's mere correction does not imply what his subjective preference for John's response is. In fact, it could be, he wanted to make John laugh telling a joke. 

    Was there an objective value of truth discovered in there somewhere – i.e. that truth is universally preferable to error? Most definitely not.

     

     

  • Mon, Jan 23 2012 10:28 AM In reply to

    • Kevin
    • Top 500 Contributor
    • Joined on Wed, Aug 24 2011
    • United States
    • Posts 150
    • Philosopher King

    Re: UPB tells us 2+2=5 and then says 5=4 making it invalid

    Preference = Requirement

    I believe that Stef is saying that If the goal is survival, then eating arsenic is not preferable and eating something healthy is preferable since it satisfies the goal "survival". It is preferable in the same sense that if my goal is objective morality then the theory (as in the praxeological sense) informing the action such as "it is moral for me to murder bob" must adhere to a standard of universality since any attempt at justifying a moral theory must be logically consistent with the goal of moral objectivity. (The reason universality is required is demonstrated in the book). 

    I hope that helps

    "From each according to their ability to each according to their need", only peacefully.

  • Mon, Jan 23 2012 10:36 AM In reply to

    • Kevin
    • Top 500 Contributor
    • Joined on Wed, Aug 24 2011
    • United States
    • Posts 150
    • Philosopher King

    Re: UPB tells us 2+2=5 and then says 5=4 making it invalid

    Annabelle:

    For me, the issue is with UPB not being internally consistent.  Logic and the scientific method are standards I value.  UPB claims to value them as well.  But then the book contains things that are not logical, don't make sense, break with science, etc.  I can't remember if UPB says anything about internal consistency, but I know from podcasts that it's something that Stefan values.  So it's like, UPB very much looks like it's standing out like a sore thumb.  Why aren't other people here seeing this?  Are they trying to use it for something different than I am, and that's why they're getting better results with it? (i.e. feeling like they understand it and can apply it).

    UPB is all about internal consistency in the sense that praxeology is all about internal consistency. Internal consistency is evaluated in nearly every argument put forward in the book. I have a hard time believing that you have a good enough grasp of UPB to dismiss it out of hand and without any supporting argument.

    I think that you'd be surprised just how subtly people are using UPB here in this thread. As in you ought not believe UPB is true universally, preferable according to a principled standard outside and bearing on you. People keep pointing this out for a good reason and to my knowledge it has yet to be refuted.

    "From each according to their ability to each according to their need", only peacefully.

Page 1 of 5 (70 items) 1 2 3 4 5 Next >
Copyright 2005-2012 By Stefan Molyneux
Powered by Community Server (Non-Commercial Edition), by Telligent Systems