Freedomain Radio

I came here because of a video I just saw on Youtube.  It is called "A Theory of Mental Health" by Stefan Molyneux and it really struck home for me.  Let me tell you my story...

I am 25 years old and 5 years ago I was diagnosed with schizophrenia.  It has devastated my life in unimaginable ways.  I have been on high doses of antipsychotic medications for almost 3 years now.  Within those 3 years I have tried 5 different antipsychotic medications and have experienced horrific side effects. I am currently switching from Olanzapine to Abilify and am on both at the same time.

Do these medications help me?  It's a difficult question to answer.  I have convinced myself many times that they really do help but I've also convinced myself many times that they don't.  Half a year ago I stopped taking my meds because I wanted to lose some weight (side effect) and to see what it would be like to be med free again.  The first few days were great but I had to go back on after 3 weeks because I guess you could say my body was going through withdrawl symptoms (after stopping abruptly) or perhaps I was becoming psychotic for another reason.

I do have symptoms of schizophrenia but these symptoms can be explained as a normal function of my brain (at least to me).  I don't exhibit the typical symptoms such as voices or other kinds of hallucinations.  My symptoms were paranoia and false beliefs (delusions) but these can also be interpreted as a normal causal reaction to events if you knew the whole story of which I won't go into for the sake of not boring you too much.  I can however tell you if you'd like me to.

Ever since I've been on my meds I have not worked and have been receiving disability for 2.5 years.

My life has become an empty shell of what it once was and pretty much meaningless.  But I do have hope and I know that I will change (or more like completely transform myself) in the year 2012.  I plan to start studying again, exercising again, etc., etc., etc.

My question is: which books, podcasts and Youtube videos would you recommend to me?  Thanks!

 

 

Hi Luke, very pleased to meet you, I'm so sorry to hear about all these challenges, that is a very heavy cross to bear!

Daniel Mackler has done some work and a documentary on schizophrenia I think – you can check out his website at:

http://www.iraresoul.com

I did an interview with him last year as well:

Welcome Luke, I'm so sorry to read about your challenges. In addition to the link Stef noted (Daniel's film is titled Take These Broken Wings, and it's excellent), I'm also a major proponent of Dr. Peter Breggin's work at The Center for the Study of Empathic Therapy, Education and Living.

One of Dr. Breggin's best radio shows occurred recently, it was an hour long discussion of the history of the use of neuroleptics, as well as the many valid concerns one can have over the subject of taking them:

Very sorry to hear what you've gone through. But great that you do have plans and motivation to improve your state. :) 

I'm curious about your story, if you don't mind telling more. What were the reasons for the initial diagnosis, and what (childhood) events might have contributed to your symptoms? Did anything specific happen before they first showed up? You're hinting the paranoia and false beliefs could've been an understandable reaction to events, so I'd like to hear more about that.

What treatment was offered except for the meds, and was it all voluntary? Looking back, did the drugs have any useful effect at all? (from your post it sounds like they didn't, and you mostly had to suffer from side effects)

About the books, podcasts etc.: what are you looking for, what are you interested in? Daniel Mackler is certainly worth looking up. :) One bit of youtube video I wanted to share is about brain plasticity and schizophrenia, which starts about 22:50. Whether or not you have the full disorder, it's good to know that your brain can be rewired and strenghtened by mental and physical exercises. That's the case for many mental troubles.

Welcome to the boards btw, and thanks for sharing your story.

Hello and thank you to: Stefan Molyneux, Dave Bockman and Anna!

Anna :

I'm curious about your story, if you don't mind telling more. What were the reasons for the initial diagnosis, and what (childhood) events might have contributed to your symptoms? Did anything specific happen before they first showed up? You're hinting the paranoia and false beliefs could've been an understandable reaction to events, so I'd like to hear more about that.

Well, to be honest, I'm not too sure why I have schizophrenia or what schizophrenia really is.  However, I do have a list of things which may have been part of the cause (or causes) for me developing this illness.  Here's the list:

1) I grew up in a dysfuntional family setting in which I was abused (mentally, emotionally and physically) and everyone seemed to fight with each other all the time.  My grandma, for instance, hated my dad (she said it herself) and tried to get me to hate him too.

2) When I was about 12 my dad suffered multiple nervous breakdowns (I don't know what else to call it).  During which time he would wake me up at nights and talk to me about how he's about to die and about how the devil is inside him etc.  I don't think he ever fully recovered and it's things like that which made me look at him differently.

3) Since I played a lot of sports and was an active kid I hit my head hard a few times.  Sometimes it seemed like I injured my brain badly because everything would start going dark (as if I was losing consciousness) or I'd see a cluster of flashing lights (hard to describe).  Also, when I was around 15 I got into a fight with my dad and he gave me several very hard blows to the head.  In this case I was dizzy for the rest of the day.  I never did seek medical attention in any of those head injuries, although a couple of years ago I did have a CT scan done and it came back normal.

4) Drug and alcohol use.  I've had many bad experiences while on drugs.  "Bad trips," as they're commonly called.

5) I tried to find out what was wrong with my dad by reading psychology books and I started to think I was exhibiting some of the same symptoms. 

What treatment was offered except for the meds, and was it all voluntary? Looking back, did the drugs have any useful effect at all? (from your post it sounds like they didn't, and you mostly had to suffer from side effects)

I had to start taking antipsychotics when I was part of the Mental Health Diversion Program for getting in a fight with my dad while intoxicated.  Many people were telling me that I was sick and needed to be medicated so I started to believe it after a while.  I've been on meds ever since.

About the books, podcasts etc.: what are you looking for, what are you interested in? Daniel Mackler is certainly worth looking up. :) One bit of youtube video I wanted to share is about brain plasticity and schizophrenia, which starts about 22:50. Whether or not you have the full disorder, it's good to know that your brain can be rewired and strenghtened by mental and physical exercises. That's the case for many mental troubles.

Among many things I'm interested in curing myself from schizophrenia and living a better life.

By the way, I forgave my dad and we have a pretty good relationship now.  He forgave me too because I wasn't always the best son a father could have.

 

Hi Luke

Firstly I'm very sorry to hear about the struggles you are going through and the difficulties that must surely have led up to them. 

 

luke86:

By the way, I forgave my dad and we have a pretty good relationship now.  He forgave me too because I wasn't always the best son a father could have.

I wonder what you mean by "I wasn't always the best son...". I could be quite wrong, but it sounds here like you might be accepting blame where none is due. If a child acts in opposition to their parents' wishes or desires, then it is surely the job of the parents to firstly examine those wishes and desires to ensure they are not in conflict with the natural wishes and desires of the child, and secondly to strive to improve their parenting to obtain the desired results. In adulthood the situation is perhaps less clear cut, but far greater responsibility still lies with the parents and mentors who played such a fundamental role in the psychological development of their offspring/wards. What is the "best son a father could have", if not the son that he already has? Perhaps your father doesn't understand this.

luke86:

1) I grew up in a dysfuntional family setting in which I was abused (mentally, emotionally and physically) and everyone seemed to fight with each other all the time.  My grandma, for instance, hated my dad (she said it herself) and tried to get me to hate him too.

2) When I was about 12 my dad suffered multiple nervous breakdowns (I don't know what else to call it).  During which time he would wake me up at nights and talk to me about how he's about to die and about how the devil is inside him etc.  I don't think he ever fully recovered and it's things like that which made me look at him differently.

That sounds simply horrifying. I feel sad and angry that you've been abused, had to witness your family's hostility and your father's mental breakdowns. 

If your haven't been in talk therapy for these experiences, I highly recommend you do seek out a competent therapist. Someone who's honest, warm, curious and reliable. It's important to find out the significance of these events for your current life and intellectually and emotionally process them. Do you still live with your family? If so, how is that like for you?

I had to start taking antipsychotics when I was part of the Mental Health Diversion Program for getting in a fight with my dad while intoxicated.  Many people were telling me that I was sick and needed to be medicated so I started to believe it after a while.  I've been on meds ever since.

That sounds pretty weird to me. You got in a fight while intoxicated. The first place would be to look at the alcohol/drugs, I'd think. Second would be to see what's going on in your family, why you ended up fighting your dad. The people who told you that you were sick, did they give good reasons and also look at family context? Or was it more like they saw you as a problem that should be 'fixed' with meds?

To be honest, not much of what you've described so far sounds typical of schizophrenia. You mentioned paranoia and false beliefs. What were they about?

Among many things I'm interested in curing myself from schizophrenia and living a better life.

I don't know how much you have looked into material about child abuse, family and virtue etc. But important starters for me were Stef's podcasts on family (for example 'But *my* parents were really nice!' series, podcast 109-113). Stef's book 'On Truth-The Tyranny of Illusion' is a great, short book about family/personal relationships and integrity. What helped me a lot with understanding and empathizing with my childhood and that of other people, was Alice Miller's work. Her most known, short book 'Drama of the gifted child' is very much worth reading. Hope this helps.

By the way, I forgave my dad and we have a pretty good relationship now.  He forgave me too because I wasn't always the best son a father could have.

Can you tell me what he did to earn your forgiveness? 

Hello and thank you, Theodoric! 

Message to all: it has been very nice to meet all of you.  I will be reading/watching everything you posted on this thread.  Very interesting and helpful information!  Thank you again!

Theodoric:

I wonder what you mean by "I wasn't always the best son...". I could be quite wrong, but it sounds here like you might be accepting blame where none is due. If a child acts in opposition to their parents' wishes or desires, then it is surely the job of the parents to firstly examine those wishes and desires to ensure they are not in conflict with the natural wishes and desires of the child, and secondly to strive to improve their parenting to obtain the desired results. In adulthood the situation is perhaps less clear cut, but far greater responsibility still lies with the parents and mentors who played such a fundamental role in the psychological development of their offspring/wards. What is the "best son a father could have", if not the son that he already has? Perhaps your father doesn't understand this.

I think it all started from me being treated badly and that led to me behaving badly (mostly at home) and at times I remember I acted like I wanted to get even with them (revenge).  I know I should not have been like this but I didn't really know any better at the time.  Anyway, as the saying goes: "two wrongs don't make a right."  Does not knowing any better excuse me?  I think not.

 

Anna:

Do you still live with your family? If so, how is that like for you?

Yes, I still live with both parents and sister.  I really get along well with my sister and we talk a lot.  With my parents I don't talk that often but I do try to say at least a few words to them each and every day.  Things at home are way better these days than they used to be when I was growing up.

That sounds pretty weird to me. You got in a fight while intoxicated. The first place would be to look at the alcohol/drugs, I'd think. Second would be to see what's going on in your family, why you ended up fighting your dad. The people who told you that you were sick, did they give good reasons and also look at family context? Or was it more like they saw you as a problem that should be 'fixed' with meds?

I suppose I was using the alcohol and drugs as a treatment and to make myself feel better.  There were other symptoms than the ones I mentioned.  Like when I was 19 (after using marijuana for a while) I dropped out of school and cut all ties with all my friends.  I was isolating myself from the outside world and this is another symptom of schizophrenia. 

To be honest, not much of what you've described so far sounds typical of schizophrenia. You mentioned paranoia and false beliefs. What were they about?

I hope I don't have schizophrenia or that it'll go away with time but my psychiatrist thinks otherwise.  I trust his judgement for the most part.

Paranoia and delusions, at least for me, went hand in hand.  There would be no paranoia without the delusions (I think).  A simple delusion I had was: I thought I was developing special powers.

Can you tell me what he did to earn your forgiveness?

Basically, I grew up and I started to feel sorry for him.  Plus he raised us like his parents raised him and he thought he was rasied well and so he wanted the same for us.  By the way, he beat my 2 year old sister (with a belt) who died a year later due to cancer.  The reason was: she was misbehaving in church.

 

 

luke86:

I dropped out of school and cut all ties with all my friends.  I was isolating myself from the outside world and this is another symptom of schizophrenia.

I hope I don't have schizophrenia or that it'll go away with time but my psychiatrist thinks otherwise.  I trust his judgement for the most part.

Paranoia and delusions, at least for me, went hand in hand.  There would be no paranoia without the delusions (I think).  A simple delusion I had was: I thought I was developing special powers.

Thanks for clarifying that. Yes, sadly those symptoms do point to schizophrenia. I think you've had very bad luck to be born in this family and to develop this disorder. I've heard about recoveries, even drugless ones, so there's certainly reason to have hope. Have you been able to rebuild some kind of social life, or do you plan to?

Yes, I still live with both parents and sister.  I really get along well with my sister and we talk a lot.  With my parents I don't talk that often but I do try to say at least a few words to them each and every day.  Things at home are way better these days than they used to be when I was growing up.

I really hope so for you. If there are any things that you think could be better, what would they be? Does abuse or conflicts still sometimes occur? Hope you don't mind me asking so many questions, by the way. Thanks for your responses so far.

Basically, I grew up and I started to feel sorry for him.  Plus he raised us like his parents raised him and he thought he was rasied well and so he wanted the same for us.  By the way, he beat my 2 year old sister (with a belt) who died a year later due to cancer.  The reason was: she was misbehaving in church.

Why did you feel sorry for him? Don't you think it's the responsibility of parents to learn what good parenting practices are, instead of just mimicking their own parents? Imagine what medicine would be like if every physician just imitated their predecessor. Good parenting practices need to investigated and learned. Your parents probably didn't live in a place where parenting books and training weren't available. Edit: to quote your previous message: "I know I should not have been like this but I didn't really know any better at the time.  Anyway, as the saying goes: "two wrongs don't make a right."  Does not knowing any better excuse me?  I think not." 

Very sorry to hear your father abused your sister and that she died so young. Personally I can't imagine myself in that position. Being big and strong, taking a belt and beating a defenseless 2-year-old girl who depends on your care and love.

 

 

Anna:

I've heard about recoveries, even drugless ones, so there's certainly reason to have hope.

I hope so (about being drug-free). If I didn't have hope I probably would have ended it a long time ago.

I've read that these drugs aren't good for the brain and can even be damaging but my psychitrist has never mentioned this to me.  The closest he has come is by saying that there are both negatives and positives to taking antipsychotics.  In my case he says the positives outweigh the negatives.  But what are the negatives I wonder.  I mean, my brain was probably damaged in some way before I started taking meds and I can't imagine what it's like after almost 3 years of high doses and everyday use.

Have you been able to rebuild some kind of social life, or do you plan to?

It's hard to say.  In my current state I wouldn't be able to maintain the social life I once had.  This is why I'm really thankful for my family even with all those past problems because, for one, they're all I have.  In the New Year I will be focusing on my studies and taking better care of myself so we'll see how that goes.  Maybe I'll try group therapy...  who knows.

If there are any things that you think could be better, what would they be?

Many things could be better.  But for starters I'd like my family to get along better (my sister doesn't talk with my dad at all and only very little with my mom) and I'd like my sister to be home more often.

Does abuse or conflicts still sometimes occur?

Not really.  However, a few days ago my mom bought groceries and I tried something which she didn't want me to eat and she got very angry and started yelling at me.  I didn't like her very much after that.  Ah well... no one's perfect, right?

Hope you don't mind me asking so many questions, by the way. Thanks for your responses so far.

Sure, no problem.  By the way, just out of curiosity, why are you so interested?

Why did you feel sorry for him?

Because he's my dad and I love him.  Also, I know what a mental illness is like now and my dad still has something not quite right with his head.  It's actually really sad.  But I should mention that he probably got his "illness" by breathing in toxic fumes at work.  That's my theory anyway.

Don't you think it's the responsibility of parents to learn what good parenting practices are, instead of just mimicking their own parents?

Definitely.

Very sorry to hear your father abused your sister and that she died so young. Personally I can't imagine myself in that position. Being big and strong, taking a belt and beating a defenseless 2-year-old girl who depends on your care and love.

If it was anyone else besides my dad I'd probably hate that person.

 

Welcome Luke! Nice to meet you Wow, that is quite a story.. and likewise I too am sorry for the challenges you have faced. It seems everyones directed you to excellent resources. Best of luck

luke86:

I hope so (about being drug-free). If I didn't have hope I probably would have ended it a long time ago.

I've read that these drugs aren't good for the brain and can even be damaging but my psychitrist has never mentioned this to me.  The closest he has come is by saying that there are both negatives and positives to taking antipsychotics.  In my case he says the positives outweigh the negatives.  But what are the negatives I wonder.  I mean, my brain was probably damaged in some way before I started taking meds and I can't imagine what it's like after almost 3 years of high doses and everyday use.

It should be something that psychiatrists tell patients about. But I guess for many that would be against their self-interest, because they have an image of being 'doctors' who know what's wrong with you and what cure works. You might try to discuss up and downsides of medication with your psychiatrist and tell why you'd  want to decrease drug use or at some point even stop it. If he's not interested in discussing options, I hope you can go to a different psychiatrist. I'm sure there are ones out there who truly want to help.

The easiest way to know what has happened to your brain would be if scans were taken before and during medication. From what I've read, intensity of the medication and the disorder is indeed related to greater long-term damage. One indirect way of estimating brain damage, is to look at how well you perform different functions: for example the use of language, logical thinking, working memory and attention tasks, long-term memory recall. Also motor symptoms, such as involuntary movements, trouble with performing planned movements, muscle rigidity and tremor. If you've experienced an increase in such symptoms, that might very well point to brain damage. The way to battle loss of certain brain functions is to exactly exercise these functions. You might want to look if such programs are available to you. If you don't yet have trouble with the mental functions, exercise may prevent brain damage or actually increase brain volume in the related areas.

It's hard to say.  In my current state I wouldn't be able to maintain the social life I once had.  This is why I'm really thankful for my family even with all those past problems because, for one, they're all I have.  In the New Year I will be focusing on my studies and taking better care of myself so we'll see how that goes.  Maybe I'll try group therapy...  who knows.

Good luck with that. It's tough that you're so dependent on your family, but good to hear it's more peaceful there. I hope you'll find a way to grow more independent.

Sure, no problem.  By the way, just out of curiosity, why are you so interested?

Thanks for asking. After Stef's video I've looked a bit more at the diagnostic criteria and biological side of some mental disorders. The first one I looked up was schizophrenia. For a little while I was worried that maybe that label was kind of made up, or schizophrenia symptoms were only caused by drugging. As far as I can tell, the symptoms also show up without medication and occur together, so the label makes sense. It seemed like a great chance to ask questions directly to someone diagnosed with schizophrenia: whether the symptoms matched (valid diagnosis or not) and what kind of childhood trauma might have played a part. I'm also very interested to see what paths to healing you'll be able to find. One day I might work in the mental health field, so all information is welcome.

(I'm an undergraduate psychology student and I learn most things at university. This year I was introduced to neurology, which is quite fascinating. If you're interested, I've made a thread about mental disorders and biology warning: it's a bit dry and technical. )

 

Hi and thanks, xelent!

Anna, thanks for sharing more information with me.  Let me know if you have anymore questions.  By the way, my sister just graduated from university with a degree in psychology!  She's going back to school to pursue marketing, though.  What do you plan on doing with your psychology degree?  If I may say, you'd make a fine teacher!

I have this theory that not all people diagnosed with schizophrenia (or any other mental illness for that matter) have something wrong with their brain.  Not even on a microscopic level.  I believe that in some cases it might be a purely psychological problem.  Perhaps curable through training oneself to think of and to view the world more accurately.  Like, for instance, maybe a delusion would disappear if one realized why it isn't true.  And if the delusion disappeared then maybe the paranoia would disappear along with it.  And if all the symptoms disappeared then maybe one would be considered mentally healthy and not in need of medication.  That's of course assuming the medication didn't cause this change to occur.

I've read about brain matter loss in schizophrenic patients but maybe this is due to the meds.  I've also read that the illness (or psychosis) doesn't actually damage the brain although many people are under the impression that it does.  If the meds damage the brain and psychosis does not then I'd like to try living life in a psychotic state.  Maybe if I'd be psychotic for a long enough period of time then maybe my brain would heal itself on its own. 

Those are just theories of mine.  Feel free to let me know what you think.