Freedomain Radio

It is beyond me why atheist philosophers say these words and what they mean when they say it. I can understand 'happy birthday' and, if you push me, even 'happy father's day'—considering people don't mind these arbitrary dates are imposed by the state. But honestly, I really don't understand, although I wish to understand, the reason I hear Stef and others wishing merry christmas. Because I just cannot think of any other celebration that contradicts more of the principles advocated here: 

-It is based on christian religion

-It is collectivist (gift giving, unconditional "love" and "kindness"...)

-It is a cult to the family

-It creates great anxiety in relationships (values are not understood but imposed, people feel forced to be "good" to the other...)

All in all, if it isn't a looney jewish-zombie tribute, then it is the ultimate 'thou must love me' party. You might as well be saying 'happy Independence Day' or whatever... If we are concerned about spreading philosophy and not sending the wrong message perhaps we should avoid saying merry christmas. Or else I hope someone will explain to me... I am genuinely confused.

It's not in the Bible or christian theology anywhere.  And as a concept, and not a real thing, it doesn't need to be from anything.  Christmas could very well be anything you want.  It's very traditions come from previous religions, and hence transcend any one religion or even a religion at all.

Gift giving is not collectivist.  Since no such thing would need to occur if all owned all.  And it is not unconditional.  Love and kindness are not bad, either.  Is it 'virtuous' to be the opposite of these things?  Hateful and mean?  No one would say such a thing.  No one is forcing anyone to give gifts or to love.

It is not a cult to put it in perspective and to include only those you've chosen to include.  And there is no reason to only include family either.  Even if one's personal experiences are to the contrary.

No one is demanding gifts.  Gift-giving is for the most part for children, and not adults.  And moral behavior towards children is more like that of 'collectivism', since they do not yet have power like the adult has.  Gift giving should be more casual and unexpectent once grown.  If one has a good Christmas or not is not dependent on whether they got all of the gifts they want, or any gifts at all.  Merry Christmas is not another way of saying "hope you get an x-box and ipad soon!"

Ok, what then is 'Merry Christmas' and what do you mean by it?

Joseito:

Ok, what then is 'Merry Christmas' and what do you mean by it?

Wishing someone "merry christmas" just means that you hope they will have an enjoyable and happy time at christmas. It doesn't necessarily imply anything about religion; it's just referring to a part of the year by the same name that others use.

I wish everyone here "Happy Festivus"!

I've never thought about this, but I realise that I have absolutely no desire to wish or be wished a "merry christmas".

John Ess:

It's not in the Bible or christian theology anywhere. 

I said it is based on christian religion

Christmas or Christmas Day (Old English: Crīstesmæsse, literally "Christ's mass") is an annual commemoration of the birth of Jesus Christ,^[5] celebrated generally on December 25^[2][3][4] as a religious and cultural holiday by billions of people around the world. A feast central to the Christian liturgical year, it closes [...]

John Ess:

And as a concept, and not a real thing, it doesn't need to be from anything.  Christmas could very well be anything you want. 

what, like God, Zeus, leprechauns, Rapumitchon, Zebsazelgú...? I think christmas is even more of a real concept than those, because all it is is a bunch of people doing certain stuff and saying certain things for no reason... 

John Ess:

It's very traditions come from previous religions, and hence transcend any one religion or even a religion at all.

Circumcision is also a long and bloody tradition that transcends religion. What would you think if I said to you "Happy Circumcision day!"? Would you not agree with me it's not a good idea to say it even if you can "make anything you want" out of the concept?

John Ess:

Gift giving is not collectivist.  Since no such thing would need to occur if all owned all. 

Sounds like you don't know what collectivism means:

Collectivism is any philosophic, political, economic, mystical or social outlook that emphasizes the interdependence of every human in some collective group and the priority of group goals (said by group leaders)^{[citation needed]} over individual goals. Collectivists usually focus on community, society, or nation. Collectivism has been widely used to refer to a number of different political, economic and educational philosophies, ranging from communalism and democracy to totalitarian nationalism and organised altruistic religion.

John Ess:

Love and kindness are not bad, either.  Is it 'virtuous' to be the opposite of these things?  Hateful and mean? 

depends what you mean by love and kindness. I most often used to received gifts, "love" and "kindness" from people who had no interest in me whatsoever and as a way to affirm their "benevolence", or to comply with some ridiculous social standard that had nothing to do with their real feelings towards me. Nowadays they can keep those to themselves, I don't accept them. 

John Ess:

No one would say such a thing.  No one is forcing anyone to give gifts or to love.

I don't think most people's feelings would agree with this. Mothers usually don't force their grown-up kids to visit them once a week, but that is not necessary after they have already forced them for their entire childhoods and brainwashed them with the unquestionable virtue of the family... 

John Ess:

It is not a cult to put it in perspective and to include only those you've chosen to include.  And there is no reason to only include family either.  Even if one's personal experiences are to the contrary.

So you have a choice as to the people, but not as to the date of celebration or the name of the event... (???) 

John Ess:

No one is demanding gifts. 

??? 

John Ess:

Gift-giving is for the most part for children, and not adults.

Why? Is it because children do demand gifts explicitly —whereas adults demand indirectly? Why do people feel pressure about buying stuff and buying the right stuff? do you and I live on the same consumerist planet?

John Ess:

 

And moral behavior towards children is more like that of 'collectivism', since they do not yet have power like the adult has.

Could you please explain this?

John Ess:

 

  Gift giving should be more casual and unexpectent once grown.

should it? why?

ribuck:

Joseito:

Ok, what then is 'Merry Christmas' and what do you mean by it?

Wishing someone "merry christmas" just means that you hope they will have an enjoyable and happy time at christmas. It doesn't necessarily imply anything about religion; it's just referring to a part of the year by the same name that others use.

I wish everyone here "Happy Festivus"!

so what about 'Happy December'? why not wish everybody that too? why are christmas or Festivus wishes preferable in your opinion?

If there was such a thing as Circumcision Day (another old and bloody tradition related to religion) that was as meaningful and symbolised as much "goodness" as Christmas—as circumcision probably does within the cultures that practice it—, if our culture approved of circumcision and they liked to call this period of the year 'Circumcision Time' would you still choose to say 'Happy Circumcision Time!' instead of 'Happy December!'?

If 'Happy December' is better then why not 'Happy August'?... what about 'Happy Life'?  

Joseito:

ribuck:

Joseito:

Ok, what then is 'Merry Christmas' and what do you mean by it?

Wishing someone "merry christmas" just means that you hope they will have an enjoyable and happy time at christmas. It doesn't necessarily imply anything about religion; it's just referring to a part of the year by the same name that others use.

I wish everyone here "Happy Festivus"!

so what about 'Happy December'? why not wish everybody that too? why are christmas or Festivus wishes preferable in your opinion?

I'm fine with people saying "Happy December". I didn't say that christmas or Festivus wishes were preferable.

I doubt I've ever explicitly said "Happy December!", but I've certainly said things like "Happy summer!".

lolz

Joseito, you might find Ayn Rand's take on Christmas interesting: http://aynrandlexicon.com/lexicon/christmas.html

Additionally, it's interesting to consider that Christmas is essentially Saturnalia, an ancient Roman holiday. As for the time of year, the winter solstice seems does have some compelling symbolism since afterward the days start getting brighter, literally.

I often refer to it as "XMAS" as a joke to myself--it takes the christ out of christmas.

Joseito, it seems you coming at this via personal bitterness. 

Gift giving is not interdependence.  It's not like people are sharing tools.  Even in communal cultures, gift giving has nothing to do with the collectivist aspect.  But is usual merely ritual or personal enjoyment, rather than utilitarian.  Circumcision doesn't transcend those religions, just because it is in more than one.  It is because of Abraham.  A real example would be if a religion said to give someone a hug.  It would be stupid to say that hugs are religious.  It would also be stupid to say hugs are bad, because your family gave you hugs they didn't really mean.

And parenting is more like collectivism, because children are not yet independent.  And hence cannot buy things they need or want.  There is also the assumption built into parenting that one values that relationship.  And so values the happiness and healthiness of a child.  Whereas this doesn't exist, necessarily, in adult relationships.

Not like Zeus or Leprechauns.  But every Thursday is Thor's day...

Joseito:

It is beyond me why atheist philosophers say these words and what they mean when they say it.

I completely agree.  I know other atheists who still give gifts, put up a tree, hang lights, etc.  Their justification is always some kind of ex post facto rationalization of why they choose to still celebrate christmas.  They never seem to realize the extent to which the whole concept was romanticized towards them by their parents when they were children.  It's like growing up in the Middle East with muslim parents, but then becoming an atheist as an adult, and then still coming up with a way to justify celebrating a secular version of Ramadan.

Pluto:

Joseito:

It is beyond me why atheist philosophers say these words and what they mean when they say it.

 

I completely agree.  I know other atheists who still give gifts, put up a tree, hang lights, etc.  Their justification is always some kind of ex post facto rationalization of why they choose to still celebrate christmas.  They never seem to realize the extent to which the whole concept was romanticized towards them by their parents when they were children.  It's like growing up in the Middle East with muslim parents, but then becoming an atheist as an adult, and then still coming up with a way to justify celebrating a secular version of Ramadan.

So just as a question.  You both would prefer if an atheist disregard christmas entirely?  I mean I understand your points not to celebrate something religious but from my experience it's about making yourself happy.  The act of giving a gift because you WANT to give that gift.  Most of the time with all the decorations and everyone giving gifts inspires a warm fuzzy feeling inside that makes me WANT to see the happy faces of my friends and family.  While the origination of christmas is tied to the ancient winter solstice Slavic celebration and from there to Christianity, my question is who cares?  If the feeling we get from Christmas is to be happy and we want to celebrate that happiness by giving gifts, what's wrong with that?

EDIT: I personally say "happy Holidays" but that could just be because of the years of retail I've worked.

JKPgamer:

So just as a question.  You both would prefer if an atheist disregard christmas entirely?  I mean I understand your points not to celebrate something religious but from my experience it's about making yourself happy.  The act of giving a gift because you WANT to give that gift.  Most of the time with all the decorations and everyone giving gifts inspires a warm fuzzy feeling inside that makes me WANT to see the happy faces of my friends and family.  While the origination of christmas is tied to the ancient winter solstice Slavic celebration and from there to Christianity, my question is who cares?  If the feeling we get from Christmas is to be happy and we want to celebrate that happiness by giving gifts, what's wrong with that?

EDIT: I personally say "happy Holidays" but that could just be because of the years of retail I've worked.

Of course, as a libertarian, I have no preference for others actions as long as they don't affect me.  So, I do not care how anyone chooses to observe this time of year.  I just become sad/irritated when people lack a strong grasp of self knowledge.  Because as all FDRers know, true self knowledge leads to a more happy and fulfilling life.  For instance, I've often heard this justification that giving gifts, and all the decorations, etc., just makes you happy.  But what basic values that you esteem do these actions appeal to?  If it is really that you only like pretty decorations and giving gifts, then why not have an ornamented dead tree in you living room year round?  Otherwise, perhaps there is something else at work.... perhaps an irrational desire to conform to the predominant culture of your society, or some kind of Stockholm Syndrome-esque nostalgia for the customs and traditions that were involuntarily imposed upon you as a child.

Pluto:

Of course, as a libertarian, I have no preference for others actions as long as they don't affect me.  So, I do not care how anyone chooses to observe this time of year.  I just become sad/irritated when people lack a strong grasp of self knowledge.  Because as all FDRers know, true self knowledge leads to a more happy and fulfilling life.  For instance, I've often heard this justification that giving gifts, and all the decorations, etc., just makes you happy.  But what basic values that you esteem do these actions appeal to?  If it is really that you only like pretty decorations and giving gifts, then why not have an ornamented dead tree in you living room year round?  Otherwise, perhaps there is something else at work.... perhaps an irrational desire to conform to the predominant culture of your society, or some kind of Stockholm Syndrome-esque nostalgia for the customs and traditions that were involuntarily imposed upon you as a child.

My question to you is who claims it's a justification?  I myself don't have a tree even around the holidays.  Yes it is a time when people are giving gifts as a collective but I give gifts year round.  To me it isn't a justification it just is.  Makes me happy to see the happiness on my fiances face and that's all that matters, not the day, not the name of the day, or what the name is supposed to imply religiously, it just is.