Freedomain Radio

Hi everyone, my name is Brady and i'm a senior in High School living in Canada. Since watching Stef's amazing podcasts, I have decided to join in on the convo!

So the question is whether or not attending university is a good investment. From looking at the surface of it, it deffinetly looks like it is worth the time and money. Financially i'm statistically better off with a degree. More opportunities for jobs are availible and I get the sort of not talked about "status" of someone with a degree.

So university looks like a no brainer investment, to most (parents, teachers, friends, family) for someone like me, who could probably do it. But, the parents don't "really" look at what's being lost when I use my resources for this investment and not another. (I say "really" because the parents do look at the simple scenario of "go to university or get a labor job" which is to simple to be accurate in reality.) 

The pain I and "some" of my friends go through to get A's in high school is immense (I say "some" because not all of us hate it. There are some people who like learning the material and more power to them, but most do not). So most of us do not value the stuff being learned. We value test results from learning this stuff though because were promised financial rewards and social status. I don't know if this phycologically true or not, but it seems like the pain and force we inflict on ourselves from trying to achieve grades gets passed on to other parts of our lives. Like that the some of the different things that hurt in our lives are simply symptomes of this bad, forceful relationship. I for instance, stay up supper late because the procrasination of school work takes up the majority of my time. The stuff isn't hard, I could probably do it in much less if I liked the material. But to me it just sucks so I try to avoid it as much as possible. If I did what I want, and didn't go for 90s, I would have more time and more sleep. These are the first thing many people and I sacrafice for university. Time and Sleep. 

So that's one of many not talked about things that people like me sacrafice when pursuing and completing university. I don't know whether or not this is the best approach to go in deciding whether or not to go to university. All I know is:

1. I like learning. I don't like school. 

2. I don't like living like this. 

3. I don't want to continue living like this. 

4. I would not trade the financial sucess of a degree for 4 to 6 more years of this crummy lifestyle. 

5. University seems like to me, more of the same crap as high school but with more incentives, but still very little intellectual value to those who do not want to learn the material (majority of people). 

6. The promises made by my parents seem fradulent. They aren't outright lies, but are probably like most things they promise, unaccurate while being described as fact.

"You will be sucessfull and happy if you get a degree". Seems like the same old crap to me. 

If you feel like you are in the same boat or have been, please I urge you express what you think about this topic. 

I like this thread! I am in the same boat as you, and you describe the problem better than I could.

It's ridiculous how college is so overpriced relative to what you learn. But people seldom talk about how high school affects you even before you go to college. I think it is freaking traumatic. I graduated high school in 2008. I used to have a lot of motivation, but I have never been the same since going through that meat grinder. It's a functional prison where for 4 years you are, by definition, forced to do tons of homework (depending on the programs you're in), sit in a hard chair in a cold room for hours, listen to boring people circlejerk themselves, get talked down to constantly, and all kinds of other depressing crap. Obviously, it's about the same thing we've been subjected to since kindergarten/1st grade, but something about high school (in my experience) was even more intense. It was so awful to be there, I often felt suicidal. And like you, I developed the same kind of behaviors (procrastination, staying up late). I also skipped school a lot just to stay home and hide in my room.

I tried very hard, but in the end I didn't gain much value relative to what I can simply learn if I explore my interests and surf the Internet. I think school only stood in the way of my learning. I want to avoid further schooling as much as possible, though if I need to get from point A to point B through university, I will do it, but even then I don't want to do it for very long.

Like you, I 1) like learning, I don't like school, 2) hated living like that, 3) do not want to continue living like that, 4) would not trade the financial success of a degree for 4 to 6 or more years of that crummy lifestyle. On top of that, 5) I don't want to neglect my health.

As for answers, I don't know, I want some too. As far as I have learned about what college really is, unless you want massive debt, you don't want to go to college for the sake of learning. If you go, I think it is best to find a way to get the paper as quickly and efficiently as possible. There are, after all, many less expensive and just as helpful, if not better, ways to learn a subject.

Ever since I graduated, I have not continued on to college. I am not in a hurry to go back. It has been quite relaxing just to have nothing to do with school - even if I am holding a job from time to time, it's still better than school. In the mean time, I have experienced new relationships, learned about a lot of stuff (thanks to the Internet), got some invaluable "adult life" experience (basic stuff like living on my own, moving, jobs, finances, going to the store -- stuff which I didn't know because even though I turned 18 in some respects I was still functionally like a child), focused on psychological healing, and so on. I am happiest when I don't allow too much stress in my life, and take it slowly.

We young people have had way too much pressure foisted upon us. That is no way to help anyone grow or learn anything! It does exactly the opposite, and unfortunately not only do our parents and teachers get away with it, but we have to undo the damage. I think, however you proceed, releasing the pressure is key. You might have gotten used to being under pressure by now. I suggest getting used to not being under pressure. I think we need to be gentle with ourselves, treat our wounds with care, and sure enough we will find a way forward. There is often a nagging fear in my mind that I am not productive enough, or just drifting and not going anywhere, but I know that whatever I do I am going to direct my own life. I am not going to be a slave again.

University has it's pros and cons. I found university much more enjoyable than high school. In fact, I started attending a local college in my Junior year of high school. On a whole, you'll find that most (though not all) of the people who attend college are more fun and more interesting than the people you went to high school with. In most majors, you can choose your electives and often choose your professors. For most classes, profs don't keep attendance, so if you want to study on your own and skip class, you have that freedom. The cons you've mentioned already. There are still tests. You still might have to learn / study things you don't want to. It is massively expensive. (Although I thought in Canadia you can get subsidies from the govt so it is much cheaper than in the US?)

From personal experience I'd have to say, No.

The type of people most in support of going to university are the people who didn't go and regret it. As ever so often their kids are then expected to correct their regrets. 

I got into the whole FDR thing half way through my PhD. Looking back, if I'd known then what I know now I think I would have skipped on university entirely. 

If you have a clear goal which requires a degree, by all means go for it. However as your post doesn't say anything about studying a particular subject but just going to university because it's what's expected of you I'd be very careful about your choice.

I'm actually wrestling with the concept of abandoning my PhD or perhaps finishing it but then going onto something else entirely. Which is difficult because of the whole "but you have so much invested by now" idea.

So I guess "university regrets" work both ways and is perhaps more about beating yourself up either way and less about any actual "missed" oppertunities.

Good luck on figuring out your path in life :)

My thoughts for what it's worth:

University is primarily not about learning or education, it's not about socializing, it's not about "new experiences", it's primarily about getting a degree. If you go, your main priority should be the degree, everything else takes a backseat to that. Otherwise, you will feel disappointed, unproductive, and uninspired, because you'd be using the machine of university for an unintended purpose.

If you're attracted to university for any reason other than a degree, you'll end up tripping yourself up with a double life; the university requirements pulling you one way and your desires pulling you the other way. Most college kids live this stress-filled double life, making them crave partying and escapism to release pressure (hense the social connotation of college). Think of it this way: when you know what you want to do, and what you want to do requires a degree, you'll be awesome at university and excited to go. You'll be happy to spend saturday nights in the library, excited for exams and tests, and a whiz at scholarships and the university resources, because you have a personal reason to be there.

In most cases i've seen, people just get a degree to get parents, society, and interviewers off their back. Like if the DMV had a four year long, 180 class credit requirement to get a license. I personally would rather be a dropout working as a waiter than be like that, but that's just me.

Depends..

If you need a certain degree to get into a field you really like, then there are few other options. If you're lucky you might find an uni that actually has a stimulating curriculum and atmosphere.

I would discourage studying something just to try out if you like it- that can cost you a lot if you change your mind. Better to see if you can sneak into lectures, talk to students and stuff to see what it's like. I'm thinking of attending other lectures than my own as soon as I have time over. What has been very valuable for me was getting 2 years out of the school system. Living on my own, working, therapy and spare time. I learned what freedom feels like.

In the netherlands there's a study loan that turns into a grant if you finish on time. I'm kind of stuck with it because I studied philosophy for 2 years and then quit (thanks to FDR). In order to lose part of that loan, I'll need to get a degree within 5 years from now. I'm studying psychology and it's actually kinda ok. 

The below documentary may be of value to some for consideration on this subject...

The College Conspiracy   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VpZtX32sKVE

Penn and Teller also did a number on the subject :P

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8_m0uhToV94

It's interesting this is brought up considering where i've been at on the subject recently. 

That aside though, it depends. If you want to go into an applied field that requires a university degree such as engineering then yes. 

If you're thinking about something along the lines of liberal arts, literature, history, philosophy, etc, then no.

If you're thinking about something like management, economics, etc. Then to what degree would it be comparatively helpful to get it rather than the experience of rising through the ranks. I don't know.  

You would think higher education would be oriented toward just that, the higher things of life. But is it?

Ask just about anybody why they go to university and you'll likely get the sense that they attend merely to increase their chances of "getting a decent job or career."  Our institutions of so-called higher learning don't seem to be about rising above the workaday world and discovering the real meaning of life on earth, but in merely struggling to fit into an elitist system of world workaholism that is never to be challenged or questioned. Work is indeed the tyrannical religion of both statism and capitalism, so it's understandable why "education" at all levels caters to it.

David L, check this out. It's a really long read, but you'd enjoy it.

The Theory of Education in the United States - Albert J. Nock

...Traditionally, the university was an association of scholars, grouped in four faculties: Literature, Law, Theology, and Medicine. When I say an association of scholars, I mean that it was not quite precisely what we understand by a teaching institution

...To begin with, then, we have Mr. Butler the other day expounding, and in extremely fine rhetoric attempting to justify, what he calls "the newest type of university organization and influence." Well, of course, if one wishes to call that type of organization a university organization, one may do so; and if one can induce others to regard it as a university organization, one may also do that. It must be pointed out, however, that in so doing one acts very arbitrarily, even violently. This type of organization is not a development, but something entirely different from the traditional type of university organization; it is entirely different in structure, entirely different in intention, entirely different in function. In structure, the four "learned" faculties have been superseded by all manner of "departments" and "schools." In intention, the newest type of university organization and influence is not primarily that of an association of scholars, but that of an association, more or less loose and sprawling, of pedagogues, of persons on whom, as we shall shortly see, the whole burden of education has been shifted. In function, this type does not contemplate education, in the traditional sense of the word; it contemplates training. In fact, of all our institutions, the university gives perhaps the most conspicuous example of the complete working out of our general theory; it is perhaps the most conspicuous example of what a popular doctrine of equalitarianism and democracy comes to in practice.

...Perhaps the term "drugstore education" is even more closely descriptive than either Mr. Flexner's "bargain-counter education" or the term "grab-bag education," which I proposed a moment ago, for one goes to drugstores nowadays for nearly everything but drugs.

To the OP:  If your education experience is anything like mine, it will be 4+ more years of excatly the same routine.

It depends upon your desired vocation. I work in IT and I'm doing alright without a college degree. I've worked with many people, both with and without college degrees, and I can say that degrees have zero impact upon a person's proficiency in this industry. Some of the most talented people with whom I've worked never attended college or discontinued after a short time.

Persons requiring specialized knowledge (ie. chemistry, physics, biology) might need to pursue a degree. For example, somebody who wants to pursue a career in high-tech as an electrical engineer would require knowledge about math and physics. I used to work in the IT dept for a company which manufactures computer components. The guys in the test and design labs were total propeller heads.

The university system (at least in the United States) is a racket.

reading this article by Roger Wiegand I suddenly remembered reading this thread earlier. Following quote seemed relevant to me:

Thousands of students have discovered they can earn a four year college degree on-line for about $7,500. Further, they can do this while living with parents and hold part-time minimum wage jobs to help with bills.  Many will get by with no car and they’ll avoid $50,000 in student loan-paybacks down the road. I am seeing more qualified kids (good grades) elect not to attend college but rather work for minimum wage and begin a small business for themselves on the internet, or through other local means.

http://www.kitco.com/ind/Wieg_cor/roger_dec012011.html

Hey it's Brady; I want to say that I’m sorry that I neglected this thread and everyone who took the time to post replies. I don't think I still fully understand why I did it, but I think part of it was the anxiety that I felt from dealing with the topic. I can't expect this to make up for being a sort of douche to everyone and I understand the resentment you might have because I would feel the same way. I'm learning about myself to try to break the pattern. Thank you to all the nice replies.

Hajnal  Seeing my first post for the first time in months, I think I am still functionally a child. My theory is that the bubble world of high school really distorts our reality of the real world and makes us quite incompetent to physical laws. It’s like we live on a two different planets every day. On one we are subject to gravity and its consequences and in the other we are no.  And of course one planet is the real deal, and the other is a subsidised, propagandist meat grinder! I currently view (add salt these are just my thoughts) university is a useful, but potentially dangerous power tool.  It can really help someone if it’s used properly but also harm them if it’s not. So my strategy for finishing high school and for my future undergraduate study is to objectively do the work and get the useful knowledge and/or certificates, but to distance myself from the culture. I’m starting to pursue some entrepreneurial work as a hobby and I think that I will find new and better friends there. I hope you enjoy you continue to enjoy your freedom. I envy you; mine is coming to an end in 4 days when winter break ends!

      aelephant  That’s great to know, I’m glad to know it’s better. Yes Canadian universities are highly subsidised, especially in Quebec (French part of Canada) so costs are pretty darn low compared to the U.S  However, we know that where the dirty, fiat public money exists, bad things always breed and continue to survive :P  I still think that it’s a better deal that the U.S though…

      vincent Yes I have a more specific goal than I did before, I want to be a mining engineer and university looks to have much more value than before. I know very little about the value of having or not having your Phd, I only offer the suggestion to really base your decision on empirical evidence and not your emotions. If I was deciding whether or not to pursue a Phd, the first thing I would do would be find people who have been in either position to look at what they did. Penn and Teller’s vid got taken down :/ Thanks and I hope you the same.

      Paris Cool!!! My thoughts on how university is a power-tool is totally parallel to how you said it was a machine to be used properly. I’m gradually implementing some objective techniques into my high school life to try and tame this certificate creating/ meat-grinding machine so I get less of the meat-grinding in the process :P  Yeah waiting tables does sound better that a living like that.

      Anna Ok thanks good advice to save some coin! I’m thinking of taking a day to visit a big university near me (UBC) and sneak into some lectures to see what it’s like. Haha FDR is kinda brutal isn’t it. Your life kinda gets screwed up in the first couple months :P I think we are all suffering from Stockholm syndrome because we not only come back here but also donating to its creator :P! I hope you are able to get the degree in time.

      David L  I did watch this the day you posted it. The story about the dentist lady was really eye opening and horrifying. In a way, I think it’s ironic because freedom, by means of a good paying job, was dangled in front of her. And to pay for it, she sold her future freedom. What a horrible feeling that must be to be in debt for the rest of your life. I understand now how in some circumstances like hers, it’s better, out of high school, to work at a Mcdonalds, than to go into hundreads of thousands of dollars of debt for an education that does not guarantee you a job when you are through. My theory is that the High School culture really helped, by propaganda and the dumbing down her critical thinking, her make that decision. Awful stuff…I empathise

JegSomHeter What have you found out/ looking for on this subject? Thanks for your weigh in.

 David L  Yeah it’s a really bad motivator to hear that the purpose of university is to merely “have a better chance at getting a job”. I think it’s a poor motivator because it gives the image that jobs and wealth are in the absolute control of a few who only dole them out to people who have degrees (that’s only in the public looting business I think). Makes you feel sort of like a slave! But by learning stuff here, I’m sort of breaking free of the horrible matrix and seeing who’s really behind it (Mom, Dad and the school teachers). I’m almost done reading Atlas Shrugged. I draw from the book, the theory that man can become wealthy by three ways. 1. Creating value (Henry Rearden) 2. Inheritance (Francisco) 3. Looting (James Taggart/ Mooch). And I so I concluded that 4 years of education is not absolutely necessary to create value to become wealthy. On the other hand you must have and practise virtue so that you can master matter better than you competition. FDR philosophy is needed for that! And I think clear logic and code of ethics is needed because it’s one of our only defences against the crippling, contradictory false morality in society. I am choosing university for several reasons. One reason is that I think that it will be the most efficient way I will be able to learn what I need to learn to be competent in my job as an engineer. I think as a machine it will function well this way. As for making good friends…idk I’m more skeptical from bad past experience.

MrCapitalism What parts were the same for you (routine, friends, study, )? I was thinking if I changed my social structure from >solely people at school and parents (both rather abusive at times), too> people who share to same hobbies and interests as me, that it might change my lifestyle for the better. I think I’m ready to mature because I see the potential of a life like what Stef’s living. I made my first move tonight when I chose for the first time to not hang out with some not so good friends when the asked and it felt great after the initial anxiety of saying no. I’m doing exactly what I want tonight and I’m happy as a result! Can’t wait to start living my whole life like that!

      Alan Chapman  Ha wow! Cool to know, helps breaks that public high school propaganda of “need a degree to exist!!!” Seems like there’s a pattern of, the more free the market, (like IT) the more ability is valued and the less degrees are. If that pattern was a proven thing, I think it would be fair to say the opposite would be true. The more public the market, the more ability is neglected and seniority is valued :P  Unsustainable patterns can only exist with a gun pointed towards to sustainable ones.

      zenzin  Yes I did. I think that would have been a wise option if I was still in the state of unguided confusion.  I agree that that feeling that you will never make enough money without a degree is false because I have since learned from Atlas Shrugged and FDR that real, earned wealth is not given to anyone with a degree.  I don’t think a degree creates wealth by itself but it is one of many tool to create it. I think what you have done and are doing is very brave. I think you have really cut through the meat of the propaganda we are feed in high school. You probably faced extreme criticism and rejection towards your idea not to pursue university and to in a way you reject or give up your school friends for the price of your freedom and personal health. I have heard of that book vaguely once. Wasn’t enough to arose any interest in me (I think it was an ad or something like that), I think I will go check it out. FDR seems to bring in the cream of the crop people, I wish you the best!

 Ruben Z I think I will read the article soon thank for the link!