Freedomain Radio

In a relationship with a significant other, how much yelling is too much yelling? 

I've repeatedly asked my wife not to yell at me or raise her voice at me.  She tells me I'm the most sensitive person she's ever met.  She only yells when she gets upset, and since she's upset it's ok.  In a nut shell, she says I'm the one with the problem, not her.

In my opinion, yelling at some one is abuse.  It is violent communication.  As such, no amount is acceptable.  Like no amount of hitting your wife is ok.  You can't say "But I was upset, so it's ok I hit you." 

Am I being too extreme?  Am I being overly sensitive?  Is yelling at some one an acceptable way of expressing your feelings when you're upset?

I'm with you, I don't think yelling has any place in any intimate relationship...

It's an absolute no-no for me and Charlotte. 

To be honest, because of our histories, niether of us is perfect in this regard. I count three times in the past 12 months when we've raise our voices at each other. It wasn't top-of-the-lungs bellowing, but it was raised enough that if you were nearby, you'd have heard clearly what we were saying. 

In none of those instances did either of us attempt to justify it to the other. Instead, we stop ourselves with some select keywords. Take a moment to compose, and then together, we start combing over the emotions and thoughts that led to it. It always, always points to something historical. At least, that's been my experience. I can also tell you, that when we do get to the bottom of these instances, the emotions are intense, and the reconciliation feels like an enormous weight has been lifted. Sometimes it takes a few minutes, others a few hours. It's a TON of work but it's sooo worth it. We both feel much closer to each other afterward.

I can tell you, for sure, if the two of us were not 100% committed to creating a life together that was free of aggression, this technique would not work. It takes both of us coming from a ground of mutual values, mutual understanding, and mutual trust, to accomplish anything approaching a win-win resolution.

My early experiences with relationships of all kinds, was originally based on dominance and submission. If you can't get past that in your present relationships, then someone will always end up being the judge and someone else, the judged. If you've never experienced any relationship different from this, you'll likely think that's the only way people are capable of connecting. It was certainly true for me. It took me 3 years of therapy to break that habit.

That's about all I have to offer about this. I hope some of it is useful.

Good luck

My wife used to yell at me and I hated it. She used the same argument as it seems your own wife is using - i.e. I was a sensitive person and she yells when she's upset so it's my problem. This argument would quickly become mocking in tone if I persisted. We went to marriage counselling as our conflicts spiralled and the counsellor, at some point, asked me the question "so your only problem with your wife is that she yells at you?". I'm not sure of where she (the counsellor) was going with this, but my wife grabbed the reins and that was the end of our counselling. She threw this line back at me if ever I dared protest at her verbal abuse (the yelling would be accompanied by a string of hurtful insults). I finally broke free from these self-inflicted chains by applying the arguments of universalisation that I learned here. Although I have certainly yelled back at my wife in the past, when I started working to save the marriage, or see if it was worth saving,a particular episode of some absolutely wretched yelling and insults from my wife was followed, several days later, my some fairly mild irritation from me in which I criticised her in a vexed tone  for not getting ready on time and delaying a departure. She reacted with absolute horror and refused to speak to me for a couple of days, complaining bitterly about the tone I had used. I simply compared the two interactions, pointed the difference out, and got zero validation from her. So she mocked me for my sensitivity, but displayed hairtrigger reactions herself to any perceived or imagined slight. Indeed she would sometimes take offence at my facial expression without me having uttered a word.  She was perfectly happy to impose her rules, but was completely unwilling to submit to anything like that when inflicted on her. Shortly thereafter we separated - I hope you manage to reach a happier conclusion.

I'm very sorry to hear you are having to deal with this problem and I urge you to sort the issue out as a matter of urgency. From my experience, verbal abuse is extremely deliterious to personal self-esteem and, more significantly, we have a daughter who had to grow up in this frightening environment. Hardly surprising that the poor child became quite allergic to any loud noises and has gone on as a young adult to develop social anxiety. I am not saying this was caused exclusively by my wife's yelling. We had a dysfunctional relationship in which I was actively contributing to the dissonance, but yelling was the first early warning signal that I sadly chose to ignore and attempt to live with, Please don't repeat my error. 

Calling someone "too sensitive" is an attempt to invalidate someone elses feelings. That is abusive in itself.

My partner and I are in a conscious relationship - we have a shared vision of what behaviour is appropriate between us which does not include abuse of any kind, and certainly not shouting. It is perfectly possible to express ones anger in ways that don't include shouting. People who shout are trying to assert control, which is disrespectful of the feelings of the other. Even when we disagree with another, their right to have and express their views should be respected, particuallry in a loving relationship. Perhaps you could have a discussion with your partner as to what kind of relationship you would both like to have and then agree to hold each other to what you agree upon. If you do not share the same vision for your relationship, then you need to resolve differences.

When 2 people disagree on a particular issues they both need to engage in a respectful and rational discussion to resolve the matter. If there is a lot of emotional charge, then an independant third party present can help. If this is an ongoing issue, couples couselling can help.

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In a relationship with a significant other, how much yelling is too much yelling? 

I've repeatedly asked my wife not to yell at me or raise her voice at me.  She tells me I'm the most sensitive person she's ever met.  She only yells when she gets upset, and since she's upset it's ok.  In a nut shell, she says I'm the one with the problem, not her.

In my opinion, yelling at some one is abuse.  It is violent communication.  As such, no amount is acceptable.  Like no amount of hitting your wife is ok.  You can't say "But I was upset, so it's ok I hit you." 

Am I being too extreme?  Am I being overly sensitive?  Is yelling at some one an acceptable way of expressing your feelings when you're upset?

I don't think you're being too extreme at all!

It is hurtful to be shouted at. If your wife respects your feelings, she will change her behaviour. Like you said, being upset is no excuse to act out. It's okay to slip up sometimes (we ain't perfect!), but to justify yelling as okay in any way is not good. I would not settle for this. Your wife yelling is not her being vulnerable. If your wife wants your relationship to flourish, she needs to be more vulnerable with you. The level of trust you can have with each other will be limited as long as there are blocks to vulnerability.

I wish you the best of luck in talking to your wife and I hope that she recognizes the true nature of her actions.

Greg, that is just phenominal.  I'm so happy for you.  I too have had moments where I've raised my voice, but then realized what I was doing and apoligized.  A few times my wife has apologised after yelling, but they've been few and far between, and wereALWAYS followed with a "BUT I was yelling b/c you upset me over X!"  Any problems in our relationship are always my fault, and there is NO attempt on her part to change.  She says it's just who she is.  When she gets upset, she yells.  OK, well then "who you are" isn't some one I want to be around.

I've asked her to go to marriage counceling with me, but she refuses.  "People don't change.  It would be a waste of time."

Theodoric, I'm so sorry you had to deal with that.  I've been trying for years to address the issue, but I've had no success convincing her that this is anything other than my problem.  She is completely unwilling to change or explore where this is coming from.  It's not coming from her, she's not doing anything wrong.  It's coming from me, remember?  She is clearly lacking self knowledge, but flat refuses to explore the subject.

Yelling is not the only problem in our marriage, but I believe it's at the root of the other problems.  Even when I talk to her about the other problems in our marriage, her response is it is me who must change, she is who she is, and she's not going to change.  Note that I am very willing to try new things and work on the marriage, and have worked very hard at our marriage the last couple years: reading several books, going to marriage counseling BY MYSELF,etc.  Also working on my own self knowledge so that I at least have some idea where I'm coming from.  I've definitely had some success improving my self knowledge and even improving our marriage, following the advice received from the counseler and in the books, but with her not even attempting to meet me half way, it's just not enough. 

Again, I've talked to her about this MANY times, most recently this week.  She's made it clear that there will be no attempt on her part to change her behavior, be it yelling at me, or the other issues we have.  She says I either need to accept her the way she is, or be the change I want to see.  I asked her to meet me in the middle, but she refused to budge a centimeter.

Unless she comes off that stance, the relationship can not be saved.  I'm not asking any of you to save my marriage or tell me what I should do.  I just wanted confirmation that what she was saying was not accurate: that I wasn't being too extreme, that I wasn't from another planet, that I wasn't way off base.  I thank you for that confirmation, all of your advice, and kind words.

ANY yelling is too much yelling.

She is being abusive towards you, not only because of the yelling but (more importantly, in my view) because she is asserting that you are the one with the problem in the head for rightfully pushing back at her abuse (this is called gaslighting and is quite common).

I highly suggest you be prepared to offer her the dual choice of therapy or divorce.  If she won't stop being abusive and won't get help, she can probably find another man who will let himself be abused.

Now there's another thing to be analyzed: her attraction level for you.  Not to say or imply that this is your problem, but I have found that, generally, women who are happy with their mates do not behave abusively towards them.  Shoot me a PM to see if I can give you more specific advice.

Your fears are justified.

Theodoric:

My wife used to yell at me and I hated it. She used the same argument as it seems your own wife is using - i.e. I was a sensitive person and she yells when she's upset so it's my problem. This argument would quickly become mocking in tone if I persisted. 

This was my early warning in the last relationship I had (not the current one).  Not that she would yell at me, but she would become uncommunicative when I tried to communicate with her about matters that were very important to me, and she'd eventually flip a switch and mock me.  I, like you, chose to ignore it.  I paid the price of that with lots of pain.

I'd like to think I know better now.  So far, nothing of the sort has happened in my current relationship, and I am happy about that.

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A few times my wife has apologised after yelling, but they've been few and far between, and wereALWAYS followed with a "BUT I was yelling b/c you upset me over X!"  [...]  She says it's just who she is.

That's a fake apology.  Also, note how she is telegraphing her absolute resolve NOT to change.  She feels no regret whatsoever and absolutely no concern for even acknowledging her issues, much less working on changing them.  That's a very dangerous red flag in and of itself.

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Even when I talk to her about the other problems in our marriage, her response is it is me who must change, she is who she is, and she's not going to change.

Well then, change yourself.  Hit the gym, buy nice clothes, start being more and more attractive, then when she continues refusing to change, you can swiftly trade up to a better, non-abusive "model".  That is, of course, the final step in the transition to a better life, not to be undertaken lightly, or on a whim, or in a bad bargaining position, but definitely on the table once you have demonstrated to your wife that people CAN and DO change, but SHE's the one who is steadfastly refusing to improve herself.

What I am suggesting is that essentially you apply the MAP as explained in the Married Man Sex Life Primer 2011 book.  Trust me, it works.

I'm very sorry about your experience. I totally agree though.

Eventhough I'm not married, I can speak with some experience having grown up with parents who was yelling (loud) at eachother daily. Especially my mother who was constantly mocking and verbally abusing my father in a very negative tone to begin with. When he called her out on it, the abuse escalated into yelling at the top of her lungs. My father almost never says anything and when he does, it is almost certain he'll get mocked for it. Even when he sits in the living room all quiet, he sometimes get teased by my mother for being quiet. This of course escalates into yelling when he calls her out on being abusive. It is an extremely predictable patern in my family and it happened almost daily when I lived with them.

What I find most interesting, and very tragic in a way, is that I have become like my father as being very quiet, hiding and defensive towards confrontations. My younger sister has become very much like my mother, though she is less confrontational. She is very out-going but has the capacity to really "explode" if some minor thing that she doesn't like happens. Needless to say, I think, I don't get along with anyone in my family. That was and still is an absolute toxic environment to be in.

Wow. That is what happened with my ex partner too, and he said the same things. That I'm overly sensitive. That I made him upset. I'm sorry to hear you have the same experience. I know I feel like somebody is punching me when I'm yelled at.

I realize this is an old thread, but I wanted to re-open this discussion because it recently has some personal relevence for me. I have been having regular conversations with a group of friends in which we have been striving for a lot of openness, curiosity, and intimacy, talking very openly about our personal struggles, and attempting to use the real-time-relationship. Recently, one of our group yelled at another person, and in subsequent conversations about what happened we have not been able to reconcile our disagreement about the appropriateness of yelling between friends. It seems that in this thread everyone is pretty much in agreement that yelling is problematic in an intimate relationship, but I don't see much about why you believe that to be the case. Can you elaborate about why yelling is an unhealthy practice in an intimate relationship? Thanks.

Hey Benjamin, can you provide some more context for what that yelling was like? Was it insulting or intimidating, or just an emphatic expression of some thought or emotion, perhaps a playful yell? 

I don't accept insulting and intimidating yelling in my relationships, as much as I don't accept insults or intimidation in any form. Not that it cannot happen, but it's something to talk out and apologize for. If someone comes from the position of 'I want to humiliate you', 'I want to subjugate you' etc. that's against the equality, safety and mutual respect in a relationship. Yelling in other contexts is ok to me, such as 'watch out!' when I'm about to drop something or perhaps a loud, playful greeting 'heeey theere!!'. 

What's your take on this topic?