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  • Mon, Aug 29 2011 5:46 PM

    Broken Heart [U] The Facts about Spanking

    The shocking science about the long-term effects of corporal punishment, essential viewing for every parent!

    From Freedomain Radio, the largest and most popular philosophy show in the world.

    Sources

    http://aappolicy.aappublications.org/cgi/reprint/pediatrics;101/4/723.pdf

    http://www.stopspanking.com/#Statistics%20You%20Need%20to

    http://www.themoneytimes.com/node/85300

    http://www.repeal43.org/research.html

    http://www.utexas.edu/know/2009/09/21/elizabeth_gershoff/

    http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/booster_shots/2009/09/spanking-iq.html

    http://www.nospank.net/johnson2.htm

    http://www.neverhitachild.org/unspar1.html

    http://nospank.net/straus15.pdf

    http://www.stophitting.com/index.php?page=factsvsopinions

    http://www.naturalchild.org/jan_hunt/spanked.html

    http://www.time.com/time/health/article/0,8599,1926222,00.html

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  • Mon, Aug 29 2011 6:48 PM In reply to

    Re: The Facts about Spanking

    Excellent vid.  The sources link on the yt video, http://www.fdrurl.com/spanking, is directing to the fdr homepage.

    "The unexamined life is not worth living."  - Socrates

  • Mon, Aug 29 2011 6:59 PM In reply to

    Re: The Facts about Spanking

    thanks, fixed

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  • Mon, Aug 29 2011 8:16 PM In reply to

    Re: The Facts about Spanking

    Fantastic video. I wonder what effect spanking can have on memory development or to what extent bad memories (like those of being spanked) can become foggy or hazy over time as a defense mechanism. For example, I know I was spanked as a young child until I was about 10 or so, but I can only remember a very few particular incidents of it happening whereas I remember quite a bit from ages 7-10 otherwise.

    Thanks for the video.

  • Mon, Aug 29 2011 8:30 PM In reply to

    Re: The Facts about Spanking

    you might want to check out the series below, which talks about childhood trauma and memory loss:

    http://www.fdrurl.com/bib

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  • Mon, Aug 29 2011 8:51 PM In reply to

    Re: The Facts about Spanking

    Have seen that and remember that section. I don't think (at least I don't recall if) it answered whether or not the memory loss was a physical event of memory loss (like a major blow to the head might cause) or if it was a psychological trick played by the brain to defend against and avoid having to recall previous trauma.

  • Mon, Aug 29 2011 9:01 PM In reply to

    Re: The Facts about Spanking

    Wow, how many things can you say that people do that 85% would rather not do? or to put it more bleakly, only 15% of the people doing it want to continue doing it.

    Probably 50% of people on crack or other hard drugs want to continue doing it. I honestly can't think of something... oh I betcha 0% of people on chemotherapy would want to keep doing it if they could stop chemo and live. Probably 95% of people would stop using sunscreen if there was a better alternative. :)

    Check out my blog and occasional podcast on writing :) http://sticktowriting.blogspot.com/

    “Good men don’t serve in the army.  Good iron doesn’t get turned into nails.”- Chinese saying

  • Tue, Aug 30 2011 10:55 AM In reply to

    • lbrlove
    • Not Ranked
    • Joined on Tue, Aug 30 2011
    • Posts 9

    Re: The Facts about Spanking

    Stefan, thanks for all you do.  You are a much appreciated voice.

    I saw this piece referenced on Facebook and commented there as well.  My problem with the piece was the somewhat shifty boundaries between "spanking" and "slapping".  I think even among those who never spank their children (I am among this number), we still acknowledge a difference between ostensibly corrective behaviors and purely abusive ones.

    I have no trouble at all believing that in the net, these things achieve analogous results with perhaps minor differences in degree.  But I also believe that the sort of person that defends corporal punishment for children is similar to the slaveholder of 150 years ago who assured outsiders of their benevolence.  I am not sure they can be reached by lumping them in logically with the "bad slaveholders" (i.e. "abusive parents").

    I imagine that the collected research runs the gamut from studies about mild physical correction to wanton abuse, but I am curious if the same findings could be as eloquently presented if restricted to studies of only the most benign corporal disciplinary practices.  I further question if studies would show similar results from parents who solely emotionally abuse or belittle their children, but I suppose that is a different show.

  • Wed, Aug 31 2011 5:02 AM In reply to

    Re: The Facts about Spanking

    Fantastic video and it will be of great use in spreading the truth of childhood trauma (via spanking) to many people I come in contact; people who would not otherwise understand this connection to many of their personality issues in their adult life.

    Thank you and keep up the great work! Smile

    "Until men learn that of all human symbols, Robin Hood is the most immoral and the most contemptible, there will be no justice on earth and no way for mankind to survive."

    ~ Ragnar Danneskjöld - "Atlas Shrugged" by Ayn Rand ~

  • Wed, Aug 31 2011 5:07 AM In reply to

    Re: The Facts about Spanking

    lbrlove:
    I think even among those who never spank their children (I am among this number), we still acknowledge a difference between ostensibly corrective behaviors and purely abusive ones.

    There is no difference when violence is employed. It doesn't matter what the intent is to the child-- the nerve endings, the developing brain, the amygdala.... they don't register the abuser's intent, only the shock, pain, embarrassment, rage, guilt, fear.

     

    "Use the flame of knowledge to light candles, not peoples' hair"-- S. Molyneux

  • Wed, Aug 31 2011 6:40 AM In reply to

    • lbrlove
    • Not Ranked
    • Joined on Tue, Aug 30 2011
    • Posts 9

    Re: The Facts about Spanking

    I disagree.  Spanking, speaking of relatively mild reproof, is a bad outcome.  Wanton abuse is egregious.  There is a distinction of degree that is undeniable.  It is the difference between bombing Dresden and fire-bombing Dresden.

    Moreover, I think you missed my point.  I am not the person that needs to be sold to the science that all spanking is bad.  That audience is comprised of people who issue what they consider mild reproof to their children.  They do not wantonly abuse, meaning deliver hard trauma.  The people who do the latter are not that audience because they likely do not care.

    So how best to reach those people that do comprise the audience?  Structure the scientific proof strictly around the most benign forms of spanking which we at least agree are bad outcomes.  A collateral benefit of such a presentation is that it implicitly puts all more extreme forms of abuse into a taboo category.

  • Wed, Aug 31 2011 6:48 AM In reply to

    • JamesP
    • Top 10 Contributor
    • Joined on Mon, May 28 2007
    • Hale, Denver, Colorado
    • Posts 3,186
    • Philosopher King

    Re: The Facts about Spanking

    lbrlove:

    Moreover, I think you missed my point.  I am not the person that needs to be sold to the science that all spanking is bad.  That audience is comprised of people who issue what they consider mild reproof to their children.  They do not wantonly abuse, meaning deliver hard trauma.  The people who do the latter are not that audience because they likely do not care.

    So how best to reach those people that do comprise the audience?  Structure the scientific proof strictly around the most benign forms of spanking which we at least agree are bad outcomes.  A collateral benefit of such a presentation is that it implicitly puts all more extreme forms of abuse into a taboo category.

    Can you specifically point out where Stef could have done this better?  Please provide specific examples so we can understand your criticism, possibly by citing what Stef said and then providing an alternative way of phrasing it, or pointing out how it's negative in the way you describe.

    Alternatively, perhaps you can share with us a scenario in your life where your approach has worked with other parents?

  • Wed, Aug 31 2011 7:50 AM In reply to

    • lbrlove
    • Not Ranked
    • Joined on Tue, Aug 30 2011
    • Posts 9

    Re: The Facts about Spanking

    Certainly.  For instance, in the section "Substance Abuse/Mental Health", it points out that "children who are spanked and slapped are twice as likely to develop alcohol addiction and other drug abuse".  But I highly doubt that people of, say, a religious ilk who spank their children will relate to "slapping" them, and so I believe this immediately alienates this group.  To them, this grouping of spanking (connotation: mild reproof) and slapping (connotation: wanton abuse) amounts to a conflation.

    I believe you avoid this alienation by restricting the studies (and dialog) to the most mild forms of spanking which we all seemingly agree are harmful behaviors.  It is just my opinion, but it seems best to make it clear that even these "mild" forms are damaging and win those people over.

    So your next question is probably, "Why would some one see it this way?"  My own experience provides an example.  I grew up in a house with a religious mother and a secular father.  My mother believed in spanking, my father did not.  As a child, my mother occasionally spanked my siblings and me.  My father appealed to reason from earliest childhood.  My parenting style (and my wife's) completely reflect my father's reasoned approach, but I promise you I know how my mother would see the argument.  She would immediately turn this off if you implied that her "spanking" was "slapping", period.  You would have lost her, and that would be a shame.

    The bottom line is that people get defensive about their ideas when they are challenged forcefully.  People on this forum are showing defensiveness with my well-meaning posts, so you are possibly guilty of this too.  I am not suggesting you have to agree with me, but merely consider how effective the presentation would be if tailored for that audience that is most likely to be swayed to its point.

    Lastly, I cannot share a scenario from life (other than the above) where "my approach" has worked.  I do not spank/slap/hit/belittle - never have - and I have always had faith this approach produces the best outcomes.  I am biased, but I believe my daughter is a wonderful example of someone who is not violent, questions things objectively, and believes in the power of discussion and negotiation.  My father wins, as I see it.

  • Wed, Aug 31 2011 8:18 AM In reply to

    • Nathan
    • Top 10 Contributor
    • Joined on Thu, Mar 23 2006
    • Philadelphia, PA
    • Posts 13,120
    • Philosopher King

    Re: The Facts about Spanking

    lbrlove:
    She would immediately turn this off if you implied that her "spanking" was "slapping", period.  You would have lost her, and that would be a shame.

    That is a shame that she is so defensive and unapproachable that she wouldn't consider the arguments being made, own up and apologize. I'm truly sorry about that.

    The problem with this is that when you fail to make this point, they always come back with "but this is spanking, not hitting or beating or slapping, it's totally different because I agree that beating is abuse".

    That's a catch 22 and it's not Stef's problem to manage their defenses around this.  I mean, you can be gentle to some degree, but seriously, I would not mince words and giving them an out by playing into their language game of euphemisms. People like this are beyond reproach and beyond any negative feedback whatsoever.

  • Wed, Aug 31 2011 8:22 AM In reply to

    Re: The Facts about Spanking

    Nathan:

    lbrlove:
    She would immediately turn this off if you implied that her "spanking" was "slapping", period.  You would have lost her, and that would be a shame.

    That is a shame that she is so defensive and unapproachable that she wouldn't consider the arguments being made, own up and apologize.

    The problem with this is that when you fail to make this point, they always come back with "but this is spanking, not hitting or beating or slapping, it's totally different because I agree that beating is abuse".

    That's a catch 22 and it's not Stef's problem to manage their defenses around this.  I mean, you can be gentle to some degree, but seriously, I would not mince words and giving them an out by playing into their language game of euphemisms. People like this are beyond reproach and beyond any negative feedback whatsoever.

    “Violence can only be concealed by a lie, and the lie can only be maintained by violence. Any man who has once proclaimed violence as his method is inevitably forced to take the lie as his principle.”--Aleksandr Isayevich Solzhenitsyn

     

    "Use the flame of knowledge to light candles, not peoples' hair"-- S. Molyneux

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