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Latest post Wed, Dec 7 2011 1:32 AM by Ruben Z. 28 replies.
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  • Fri, Aug 5 2011 9:15 AM

    • JamesP
    • Top 10 Contributor
    • Joined on Mon, May 28 2007
    • Hale, Denver, Colorado
    • Posts 3,186
    • Philosopher King

    When to Debate

    Knowing when to debate can be tough.  We get pretty messed up if our thoughts and opinions aren't respected when we're young--most parents do not, and teachers rarely do--so it can be hard to determine when a debate is going on versus when it's effectively two televisions turned towards each other.

    These aren't required rules of board conduct or anything like that... but if a user flagrantly ignores these guidelines, it's a pretty good indication that they're a troll and may need to be dealt with accordingly.

    Listening

    It is essential to listen--really listen--to what the other person is saying.  Are they making an assertion?  Are they making an argument?  Have they quoted the source material and accurately commented on it?  Are they making any logical fallacies?  Are they making any insults, whether bald-faced or veiled?

    If they're making a criticism, is it specific or vague?  Can you tell what specifically is being criticized or is there a lot of "it seems to be" sort of language?

    If they've made a mistake and it's been pointed out, how do they respond?  Do they acknowledge their error, or at least acknolwedge that there may be an error, and address the issue?  Or do they ignore it, wave it away, repeat their original assertions, or completely change their story with no reference to their original comments?

    It is much more important to pay attention to the form of what people are saying than the content.  Don't get distracted by the content if the form is broken.

    If people aren't making arguments, then if you're going to respond, point out that they aren't making any arguments or that you can't respond to the criticisms they're making.

    Trusting your gut

    It is also really, really important to trust your gut.  When you read the other person's post, pay close attention to your experience.  Is it positive or negative?  Does it feel clear or muddled?

    Do you feel pressured to respond?  Do you feel angry or frustrated by the post?  If so, you'll probably want to refrain from replying, at least initially.

    Even if the feelings are vague, they're important.  It might not be about the poster, of course--plenty of ideas can cause us emotional discomfort (voluntarism within the family is highly volatile but it is supported by reason and evidence)--but it is important to know what you're feeling and where it's coming from.

    Don't expect that you can just do this on your own, especially if you don't have a lot of experience trusting your gut.  Confer with other board members.  Ask questions of their experience.  Learn how to validate your experiences.

    Why bother with all of this?

    Maybe this seems like a waste of time and energy.  "Emotions?" you may ask.  "Really?"

    If this is something you're skeptical about, then I get that--I'm not necessarily going to convince you in a long-ish post that this is what you should do, but bear with me and let me know what you think.

    At the risk of being completely obvious, our time is limited.  What we choose to do with our time means that several infinities of other things are not being done.

    This means that what we're doing in the moment is valuable to us in some way, or we wouldn't do it.

    Sometimes the value is a negative economic calculation: we perform some activity because the consequences of not doing so are worse (such as spending time with an abusive person because if you stopped doing so, they would attack you).

    And, for what it's worth, that also applies to me writing this post Smile

    It's important to understand what our values are, to make them as conscious as possible.  If we find that our stated values do not align with our actual values, then that is an important thing to know.  We've all been subjected to hypocrisy, and we're all highly sensitive to it.  It's even more important to be aware of these things on a philosophy site.

    But leaving this site aside, exploring and resolving conflicts between your ideals and your behavior is about self-awareness, self-care, and self-respect.

    Please have respect for yourself.  If you don't, you can't really have genuine respect for others, and people won't have genuine respect for you.

    Another reason to ask these questions of yourself is about efficiency.  Since time is limited and there is so much to be done, efficiency is something to consider.

    Trolls don't just exist on the board.  No, no, no, not at all.

    This isn't about what goes on here, but what goes on in your life at large.

    If you spend the time to understand what attracts you to a negative poster here, you start to build the skill to detect those sorts of people in your daily life.

    How much of your life is drained away by trolls in your immediate vicinity?  How much time ticks by dealing with people who are insulting, unclear, unpleasant, or boring?

    Life is short.  Take it by the balls (ovaries?).  Don't waste it on the undeserving.

  • Fri, Aug 5 2011 9:22 AM In reply to

    • Nathan
    • Top 10 Contributor
    • Joined on Thu, Mar 23 2006
    • Philadelphia, PA
    • Posts 13,120
    • Philosopher King

    Re: When to Debate

    Yes I need these reminders, even with a lot of practice it's still hard to listen to my gut.

  • Fri, Aug 5 2011 12:29 PM In reply to

    • Nathan
    • Top 10 Contributor
    • Joined on Thu, Mar 23 2006
    • Philadelphia, PA
    • Posts 13,120
    • Philosopher King

    Re: When to Debate

    This should be a sticky post at the top of unread/active/etc. for a few days.

  • Fri, Aug 5 2011 3:05 PM In reply to

    • JamesP
    • Top 10 Contributor
    • Joined on Mon, May 28 2007
    • Hale, Denver, Colorado
    • Posts 3,186
    • Philosopher King

    Re: When to Debate

    Nathan:

    This should be a sticky post at the top of unread/active/etc. for a few days.

    Good idea, but I think it will only be at the top of the forum post list.  I can still stickify it, though Smile

  • Fri, Aug 5 2011 3:06 PM In reply to

    Re: When to Debate

    Please to be listening opening monologue:

    "Use the flame of knowledge to light candles, not peoples' hair"-- S. Molyneux

  • Fri, Aug 5 2011 3:48 PM In reply to

    • Logos
    • Top 500 Contributor
    • Joined on Fri, Jul 15 2011
    • Earth
    • Posts 246

    Re: When to Debate

    I agree, in a good deal of the posts I participated in I recently stopped debating and argueing and critically analyized the situation by asking 'Is this worth it?'  'What will it acomplish?'

    "A building has integrity just like a man. And just as seldom."

  • Wed, Aug 31 2011 5:06 PM In reply to

    Re: When to Debate

    Thanks for posting the audio DB, and thanks to JP for initiating the thread. Very helpful.

  • Tue, Sep 20 2011 7:33 PM In reply to

    Re: When to Debate

    I too add my thanks and thinks for the thread and audio, guys. The peace of mind side of my brain feels better now.

  • Fri, Sep 23 2011 11:28 PM In reply to

    Re: When to Debate

    A while back I read a book by Don Miguel Ruiz titled the 4 agreements. 

    1) Be impeccable with your word
    2) Don't take things personal
    3) Never assume anything
    4) Always do your best

    I think this could add to this topic. 

    Many people come to disagreements and hard feelings over allowing ego attachment to their discussions.  Also by assuming things it is easy to become misled in a debate.  I'm not exactly the best writer but I do try and these 4 points have helped me tremendously.

  • Mon, Nov 7 2011 2:08 AM In reply to

    Re: When to Debate

    I fell into a bad one the other day.  I don't know why I seem to seek these out online.  In my personal life and in my practice I don't need to argue with anybody.. it's great.  I am very cordual and I dismiss the real life "trolls" left and right.  I surround myself with good people and healthy relationships.

    I still have a hard time resisting these internet debates.  When someone is abusive (lots of ad-hominem), and also has the capibility of intelligent thought, it erks me to the end of the earth.  I just don't get it.  I always fall into the trap and take the bait.  I always end up infuriated, and as a result the entire experience ends up stale... always a complete waste of time.

    I turn into that guy from the picture, when he is sitting there online and calls out to his wife: "Ill be in bed in a minute, someone is wrong on the internet."  I've done this shit for years.  Its like an addiciton.  I want to stop but I don't know how.

     

  • Mon, Nov 7 2011 3:01 AM In reply to

    • Ruben Z
    • Top 200 Contributor
    • Joined on Fri, Jun 25 2010
    • Netherlands
    • Posts 278
    • Diamond Donator

    Re: When to Debate

    SpyroChiro:
     I want to stop but I don't know how.

     

    See what you mean. It might be time to revisit one or more of the "real life trolls".

    You might have "dismissed" one or more of them without dealing with what they made you put up with. Hence the tendency to "get infuriated" at whatever even remotely fits, and whatever is safely distant to the real thing.

  • Mon, Nov 7 2011 3:41 AM In reply to

    Re: When to Debate

    Ruben Z:

    SpyroChiro:
     I want to stop but I don't know how.

     

    See what you mean. It might be time to revisit one or more of the "real life trolls".

    You might have "dismissed" one or more of them without dealing with what they made you put up with. Hence the tendency to "get infuriated" at whatever even remotely fits, and whatever is safely distant to the real thing.

     

    It's relly hard for me to say.  I have a hard time coming up with who that could be in my life and why I reacted to them in such a way.  Could be mom and dad, but I don't fee like I had it rougher than anyone else who doesn't have the urge to endlessly debate assholes online.  I was spanked and not given much choice in some matters, like many others, but I have since confronted both parents about that.  Also a child of divorce.. could be somehting there.  I can't put my finger on it.

    My best guess, come to think of it, is for as long as I can remember I have been a contrarian.  I have always looked for ways to challenge common beliefs.... hence the atheist, anarchist, chiropractor thing.  Why am I like this?  Maybe it's because when my parents told me "no", or I was disciplined, I was determined to get reasonable answers why, and when they did not give me reasonable answers, I got angry.  But I have confronted them about a lot of that... doesn't that mean I should have stopped looking for fights now?  Is it just part of my programming now (bomb in the brain)?  Can being a contrarian be a good thing?

    This is confusing.

    Just realized this is the most I have ever shared on here.  Who knew it would be my online debating that would bring it out of me.

  • Mon, Nov 7 2011 4:35 AM In reply to

    Re: When to Debate

    I am curious to know what kinds of debates are being referred to in this post.  The only thing I saw mentioned with any specificity was voluntarism within the family (highly volatile, no less).  I suppose in a perfect world every exchange that started with lack of understanding and progressed toward a meeting of the minds could be considered a debate, although my experience has been that these interactions are more often than not far less clinical than presentation and consideration of propositions and evidence.

    Most of the forums I have perused have rarely provided any examples of arguments, generally a contibutor makes a statement that causes discomfort and the ad hominems commence.

    I argued with a group of self-described progressives on a blog that a friend of mine maintains for quite a while before I discovered freedomainradio and realized I was arguing with my father, who was often dismissive.  It's taken quite a bit of work to see past the things that cause me to react and analyze that reaction.  I still have to work on accepting the fact that there are a lot of other people who react from places they are unaware of on a conscious level, and are likely unaware of the posssibility of inconscious motivation, as well.

    How do you define a "troll"?  I doubt that the PTB pay much attention to philosophy, outside of what they subsidize in areas of education and media.  It does seem unlikely that they would support a decades long system of indoctrination and maitenance of ideas throught the media without contingencies for counteracting ideas on the web, i.e., some "trolls" may be  trolls for hire.

     

     

  • Tue, Nov 8 2011 10:12 PM In reply to

    Re: When to Debate

    I myself fall in the contrarian category.  I feel you on the need to debate at times, I find it more entertaining than watching sports or television as I love to find out what makes people think.  I also am trying to find ways to plant seeds in people to hopefully help them break through their own bombs in the brain.  I have noticed one thing in life that will sound corny I'm sure.  Anger begets anger and love begets love.  I have never been able to reduce the anger of a person by becoming more angry or smug.  However when I realize that those people need to vent I allow them some of my energy, not to let them win but to take the high road and be as civil as possible.  This usually turns the debate more civil and seems to give me points in the debaters eyes.  I have turned debates around just by easing up and admiting my own faults from my past experiences.  I have had some amazing realizations in conversations/debates through these types of tactics.  Many people with rigid beliefs want to be right regardless of the truth.  I try my best to give them props if there are any to give.  It works wonders for me, then there are always the true trolls that seem out to vent on the world or cause as much mayhem as possible.

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