Freedomain Radio

in
Latest post Wed, Feb 3 2010 6:46 PM by Andersfilosof. 12 replies.
Page 1 of 1 (13 items)
Sort Posts: Previous Next
  • Fri, Dec 4 2009 9:14 PM

    An Argument against DRO's

    I posted a link to this video, on another forum, and received the following response:

    That's an extremely well thought out video I must say. I very much wish it would be practical.


    The trouble is, after a period of time, DROs will collude and establish a de facto government. DROs will form cartels and establish de facto contract codes governing wide areas (no one likes to reinvent the wheel 1000 times over). De facto rules in wide areas = government. 

    Put another way (and this applies most strongly in case of gigantic DROs): if you don't want to work with DROs (and in a free society why should you?), you will become a pariah (while its not a cage, it is its close equivalent in the isolating effect).

    So do you have freedom, when you must conform to DROs cartel whims?

    If a DRO cartel sees a startup DRO that is trying to steal business from them, what could possibly stop the cartel using its collective muscle (man power, influence, money, prestige etc etc) to put the startup DRO out of business?
    (so that they retain the dominating market share and therefore the largest share and influence on society's resolution processes, i.o.w de facto law making)

    As much as the system being presented feels nice, its worth bearing in mind, there is no utopian solution to human greed, lust for power, and general tendency to explore limits of behaviour just to see where the line is.

    That's the cold reality as I see it.

    There are similar arguments presented against the DRO system on this forum, quite often and I think this person raised some good questions.  I'd really like to see someone here deconstruct this, to help give me a better understanding, of how the DRO system would not be as likely to grow into another evil centralized power, as a "limited government" would.

    Thanks for any input.  These forums are great, there's a lot of smart people here to learn from. Cool

  • Fri, Dec 4 2009 9:37 PM In reply to

    Re: An Argument against DRO's

    The best way to think about these issues is something I've seen people suggest in the forums time and time again... Pretend you own a DRO, and whatever concerns are raised, you either find a solution to that concern, or you won't get their money and your business fails. How would a DRO get so large that it can make 'defacto laws' if everyone who signs with that DRO is afraid of it growing and establishing into a government?

     

  • Fri, Dec 4 2009 10:07 PM In reply to

    Re: An Argument against DRO's

    We see that sort of argument frequently.

    A DRO could not unilaterally blanket a large area with arbitrary edicts, and cartelization is a media myth.

    A realistic depiction of a DRO would most likely resemble something akin to a security firm like ADT or Brinks, an insurance agency like the Automobile Association of America, a reputation agency like the Better Business Bureau or Ripoff Report, and a mediation/arbitration service like the American Arbitration Association.

  • Sat, Dec 5 2009 1:53 AM In reply to

    Re: An Argument against DRO's


    That's the cold reality as I see it.

    funny that's how it always is the person claiming that a government is the best solution to greed, lust for power and all of the other evils possible to human beings calls themselves a realist.

    Check out my blog and occasional podcast on writing :) http://sticktowriting.blogspot.com/

    "a lot of people in this country feel like the US army is some place to go and make a man of yourself, I am less of a man today for having served in the US military." - Matthis Chiroux Afghanistan War Veteran

    “Good men don’t serve in the army.  Good iron doesn’t get turned into nails.”- Chinese saying

  • Sat, Dec 5 2009 5:29 AM In reply to

    • Marc Smith
    • Not Ranked
    • Joined on Fri, Nov 20 2009
    • Indianapolis, IN
    • Posts 65
    • Gold Donator

    Re: An Argument against DRO's

     Firts, cartels are inherrently unstanble.  To the extent that they are successfull is the extent to which they are held together by the state.  The history of the 1900's and the progressive movment attests to this, and Gabriel Kolko's book, 'The Triumph of Conservatism' details how established businesses during this time period could not compete with young upstarts, so they lobbied the government for regulation to harm the competition that could not bare the cost of the new regulations.  We look at huge coporations that exist today and imagine that business in a free society will get this large a powerfull as well.  But, alot of growth in business in the 20th century was due to new ways of finance that relied on fractional reserve banking, and fiat currency.  If there was no central bank, the extent to which banks could leverage to finance the massive growth of business, would be extremely curtailed.  The size of business would be an effect if demand for products not the ability to fund themselves with leveraged credit.  Since fractional reserve banking is fraud, in a free society this would be dealt with as such.  So much resistence to things such as DROs is rationalization of beliefs that are never questioned. 

     

  • Sat, Dec 5 2009 9:45 AM In reply to

    Re: An Argument against DRO's

    Please join the new Freedomain Radio Facebook page:

    Freedomain Radio - The Largest Philosophy Conversation in the World | Promote Your Page Too


    All Free! - Audio, PDF. Print starting @ $9.99+
    Freedomain Radio Needs Your Support!


    My status

  • Sat, Dec 5 2009 10:02 AM In reply to

    Re: An Argument against DRO's

    "...it's worth bearing in mind, there is no utopian solution to human greed, lust for power, and general tendency to explore limits of behaviour just to see where the line is."

    That pretty much says it right there. Yes, it is possible that a cartel of DROs could establish a de-facto government, just as it is possible that a democratic republic can transform into a dictatorship. The question is... what method of social behavior is ethical to pursue, and what method is going to establish a more durable resistance to concentrations of power? Liberty is a perpetual struggle. Thinking that there can be a stable, incorruptible system of human interactions is utopian. The powerful and influential figures in society will always attempt to sculpt the rules in their favor, but they also need, at minimum, the acquiescence of the populous to be successful at implementing those rules. As I see it, one of the best ways to keep individuals accountable to each other is to destroy the meme that some individuals have the moral right to initiate force against other individuals.

    It is important to remember that a stateless society is not necessarily any better or less violent than a statist one. The success of a stateless society is dependent upon the ethics and vigilance of its individual participants. Regardless of whether or not a particular geographical area is subject to a monopoly of violence, if the people residing there condone immoral behavior, that society is going to be destructive and tyrannical... This is why, if we study historical communities on the anarchic American frontier, we'll find some communities that were very prosperous and peaceful, and others that were violent and struggling.

    Therefore, we ought not look to a stateless society as a goal, but as the result of the consistent and widespread adherence to ethical principles. Of course, many people, upon realizing that the consistent application of ethics is contrary to the existence of a state, are skeptical, because their impression tends to be that the state is a necessary tool for securing liberty. DROs are a theoretical example that help demonstrate how certain services (mainly, the protection of individual liberty and property) can be sufficiently provided for on a voluntary basis. 

  • Tue, Dec 8 2009 2:17 AM In reply to

    • Paul C.
    • Top 25 Contributor
    • Joined on Sat, Sep 22 2007
    • Philadelphia, PA
    • Posts 1,669
    • Philosopher King

    Re: An Argument against DRO's

    I truly despise this argument.  How is what he's describing any worse than what we have now?  He argues that a possible cartel of thugs is not as practical as the already-present cartel of thugs.  And as others have pointed out, this possibility of this supposed cartel of thugs is actually very low in a society that would be wary of such thugs!  The lack of creativity in people arguing against a stateless society is starting to get boring.

    Democracy: The Newest Innovation in Livestock Management Techniques!

    When people kill for a lie, they also murder the truth. - Stefan Molyneux

    百聞は一見にしかず。- Japanese Proverb, "Hearing something 100 times can't beat seeing it once." The only way to spread philosophy.

    People who teach their kids conclusions are harming their kids ability to understand reality, and are thus abusers. Those who teach methods are not. This is a difference in kind. People who teach their kids the conclusion that Santa Claus exists are not inflicting a lifetime full of guilt or fear. Those who teach that Jesus Christ exists are. The latter are far more egregious. This is a difference in degree.

  • Tue, Dec 8 2009 3:03 AM In reply to

    • Theodoric
    • Top 50 Contributor
    • Joined on Sun, Feb 15 2009
    • Birmingham UK
    • Posts 867

    Re: An Argument against DRO's

    CapitalistDog:

    (your respondent): So do you have freedom, when you must conform to DROs cartel whims?

    I think it may be useful, apart from all the excellent rebuttals that have already been posted, to consider that people who focus their attention on the objections to and potential pitfalls of a stateless society, do not experience the brutality of the current system on a tangible and emotional level, because once they do, they will instantly join FDR, send in a bunch of cash, and start helping us think of ways to get rid of it rather than finding excuses to keep it. Of course it may be that they are currently benefiting from a position of privilege in society, wherein the brutality of the state is extremely unlikely to be directed against them, in which case arguing with them for a stateless society is pointless, or they may be simply dissociated and unable to experience the horror of facing the endless guns, prisons and economic scourges that are paraded, with overwhelming might, against our spontaneity and creativity.

    The truth…it’s not trying to teach you something new, it’s trying to unteach you something old... so take off the cast, get out of the wheelchair, because you are not broken. The story, the story alone, is that you’re broken
    Stefan Molyneaux

  • Tue, Dec 8 2009 4:00 AM In reply to

    • Agalloch
    • Top 75 Contributor
    • Joined on Mon, Oct 26 2009
    • York, England
    • Posts 722

    Re: An Argument against DRO's

    Hey,


    This post reminds me of an epiphany I recently had about freedom. It was one of those inexplicable feelings of comprehension from which my Statism can never again return; a feeling of complete enlightenment without any reason. While considering the solution to the roads, I suddenly came up with about 20 entirely different possible situations and realised far from the common belief that Anarchism is one of many solutions, that Anarchism is many solutions in contrast to the one solution that is statism, and that any argument against Anarchism cannot be based on logic without exhausting every possible idea available. I know we all already understand this, and that DRO's are but one possible solution, but as I said, the feeling itself was inexplicable.

    As for the responses details, I will attempt to provide the obvious solutions that would be taken by me in an Anarchistic society. The first statement seems to have no factual backing, and as always no one attempts to source any historical, economic or psychological reasoning as to why DRO's would be able to collude in such away. Aside from the numerous examples of why they wouldn't even reach a position to do so by Stef, I know that if they somehow did, all the DRO's would collapse immediately when their banks close their accounts to restrict their funding as per the agreements made between them and myself. No government could survive without a method to pay for its violence, and any government coming out of Anarchism (something never seen in history) would have a far harder time than one arising from a previous or outside monopoly on violence.

    The comment is very similar to one I often hear, that people "like being governed" and would drift back to government. This is of course both incorrect, but also not a contradiction of anarchy. In an Anarchistic society, if you want, you can easily hire an organisation to govern your entire life, that's entirely possible. However, what people really want is not to be governed, but to rule other people, which is immoral, and an unlikely thing to drift toward as long as people don't want to be violently controlled by others. There has also never been a historical example of people selectively forming government, or of government growing from another organisation. All government is formed with the help of other states, or as developed from tribal times with the help of religion. The other criticism I often hear with this line of reasoning, is knee jerk complaints about private governing bodies being somehow wrong and untrustworthy. This took me a long time to overcome even after accepting Anarchy as moral neccesity, so do not expect any converts on your first go, but basically the argument is as follows; Government is a private organisation. It is a firm bound by no higher law (International law is usual anarchistic in nature), that differs from any other organisation not in its morality, but in its lack of competition. There is no argument that prescribes upon government some magical goodness because of its name, and once you comprehend that it will blow your mind that we have survived that long under the violent rule of an organisation that has no competition, when it is staring us right in the face that an organisation identical to these but with competition would no doubt play nicer out of fear or its rivals. No greater argument that humans naturally want to survive without rule is available than the fact we do in spite of this Corporation that is government ruling us.

    I'd also contradict almost immediately, this posters definition of government. De facto rules are actually and incredibly human and beautifully anarchistic concept. It is an argument FOR anarchism, that British roads will all likely have left hand roads, that no DRO who prescribes murder as ok will survive; but that it takes collective will to implement and is almost impossible for such rules to be forced on us from above. This is not a cartel, this is a market! This is 100 hospitals providing identical treatments, restaurants all using knives and forks, mobile phone companies and computers all using identical protocols, this is not inter-corporate team work, this is cold, heartless, efficient and entirely beneficial competition for services based upon a central consumer demand, not upon a cartel demand. No cartel could survive such a situation without violence, because it wouldn't be profitable, and without government regulation of the market you'd have the one form of beneficial competition statists most love to stamp out on their quest to make the rich richer, alternatives! Even if an entire market has a successful cartel, you can just switch to an alternative. People do not rely on any product, they rely on its uses and without a product, they will find new products. If oil wants to cartel, with freedom we could actually find those so-called alternatives, not through force, but because it would be more efficient, if bed manufacturers want to cartel, with freedom we will develop new and better ways of sleeping, or even of not needing to sleep. It is only with government regulation that any Cartel restricts us to a market; DRO's can be replaced with a whole new system if by some magic they fail to work! That's the many ways of anarchism.

    On to the second paragraph, and I realise I've written far too much, apologies. The poster invents a "gigantic DRO", but if we are all so scared of Gigantic DRO's (and we are), and we value not having a gigantic wheel more than we value not having to "reinvent the wheel 1000 times over", then where would these magical DRO's come from? And why wouldn't all other DRO's stamp them out, why wouldn't their banks cut their funding, why wouldn't their customers leave, and why wouldn't their employees quit. A company is not some magical beast, it is a group of people with limited resources and nothing to spare; it is a constant machine taking in only as much as it spends and needing constant support from customers. The final argument of this paragraph, I won't give much time to. I don't like "I don't like it" arguments. It's an argument with ignorance of any reasoning, it's the "why should I have to", "why should poor people have to", as if the effort required by the laws of physics being too much of a burden is an argument for violence. I don't care if someone doesn't want to let you into their property because you refuse to join a DRO and that humans are so cold in this imaginary future that they turn away their starving friends for not joining a DRO, that is no argument as to why we should use violence to force absolutely everyone to to be ruled by a far larger and more invasive organisation!

    Cartel whims? I recall my insurance company had a whim once... and I left them for another organisation. Try doing that with government. As for DRO's being the only option, I doubt that very much. It won't be difficult at all to leave the DRO system, even in geographic location where they are common, thought I doubt they'll be the only form of moral and contractual resolution in the world, there may be far better solutions based upon satellites and magic for all I know, as I said, the possibilities in Anarchism are limitless, arguing the details is petty. I doubt my local shop keeper, a friend of mine would stop serving me, or that my community would suddenly consider it moral to steal my house or ignore my needs when I'm attacked, it's just anti-human rhetoric to say we're all evil without government, which is the basic theme of this post so far.

    If people value the DRO cartel's man power, influence, money and prestige more than the advantages of using a smaller DRO, then what's the point? Nothing will stop a Cartel doing that if that's what their customers want. I've never been convinced by the "poor tiny company" argument, it doesn't matter what happens to individual failed firms if the customers want it. Again, Cartels even if they existed, would not have de facto law making ability, that would have caused their banks to cut off funding and their customers to have moved to other DRO's or newer solutions long ago. The solution presented doesn't feel nice, that's the entire point, it addresses the fact that human kind isn't utopian and will need resolution and insurance. Human greed will as always be the beneficial part of the system that keeps it in check, thank god for human greed! That's the cold reality as it benefits us all.

    Thanks,

    James

  • Tue, Dec 8 2009 11:55 AM In reply to

    • blapperz
    • Not Ranked
    • Joined on Tue, Dec 8 2009
    • Nevada City, CA
    • Posts 31

    Re: An Argument against DRO's

     I kind of see the issue as one that encourages other DRO's to start up. The more DRO's the more services to share amoung them. For example if you are a DRO and your clients want pollution insurance but you don't yet have the capital or the consumer demand that you need in order to offer it you can work out a deal with a DRO that DOES have pollution insurance for a referral fee. Another example where it helps to have more and cooperative DRO's is data management. If you need information on a person or place you can share your information and they can share theirs. I doubt that any money would trade hands in that instance as it benefits everyone already.

    A DRO would not do well enforcing contracts on people who never signed them unlike the state. It would be very hard indeed to get away with that. So a DRO would run a gigantic risk losing customers even if it means they have no other DRO to go to. This is a very different dynamic than a state which is all or nothing. With DRO's you can switch DRO's, drop all DRO's, resolve disputes like many jews for example already do within their culture etc.

    I don't know if that helps or has already been said.

    FDR Banner by Blapperz

  • Mon, Dec 28 2009 3:43 PM In reply to

    Re: An Argument against DRO's

    Agalloch:

    I know that if they somehow did, all the DRO's would collapse immediately when their banks close their accounts to restrict their funding as per the agreements made between them and myself.

     

    I'm so close to becoming an anarchist instead of a minarchist, but this is the one thing that wont leave my mind. I tried to argue this but I realized, how do we know every bank would close their accounts? It only takes one bank willing to fund a growing DRO, and the DRO could overpower it's competitors, and then that one corrupt bank would 1. Make a fortune and 2. Have special privileges in the DRO's new government. We can't pretend to know exactly what people would do. How much government you want in control is pretty much a measure of your cynicism. Though I have faith in the kindness of free people, money can still corrupt, and the mixture of one corrupt bank and one corrupt DRO would create one terrible reaction.

     

     

     

  • Wed, Feb 3 2010 6:46 PM In reply to

    Re: An Argument against DRO's

    CapitalistDog:

    The trouble is, after a period of time, DROs will collude and establish a de facto government. DROs will form cartels and establish de facto contract codes governing wide areas (no one likes to reinvent the wheel 1000 times over). De facto rules in wide areas = government.


    Put another way (and this applies most strongly in case of gigantic DROs): if you don't want to work with DROs (and in a free society why should you?), you will become a pariah (while its not a cage, it is its close equivalent in the isolating effect).

    So do you have freedom, when you must conform to DROs cartel whims?

    If there's a lot of people out there who didn't want to join a DRO system no one is stopping them.  People would have the choice of not using a certain DRO economy and would obviously have to start producing what they wanted to consume themselves....... or just find a DRO with less restrictions.

    It's important to note you can live almost completely off the grid now in this coercive government...... I really don't understand why it would be harder with DRO's.

Page 1 of 1 (13 items)
Copyright 2005-2012 By Stefan Molyneux
Powered by Community Server (Non-Commercial Edition), by Telligent Systems