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Latest post Thu, Dec 24 2009 11:57 PM by Jalfro. 140 replies.
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  • Sun, Nov 15 2009 1:19 PM In reply to

    • Jalfro
    • Not Ranked
    • Joined on Thu, Oct 1 2009
    • Posts 46

    Re: Anarcho socialism worse than statism?

    memeverse:

    Jalfro:

    memeverse:

    If you argue for some vague system of collective decision making that's supposed to take into account the opinion of every individual you might as well then actually let every individual decide for him or her self,

    I absolutely agree with this.  That is the fundamental basis of anarchist ethics.  The only 'system' that is permitted is the one that is agreed on by the parrticipants in that system at any particular time.

    Ok, and I wont agree to anything else but the "system" in which I own what I by my actions acquire and am left alone with it or otherwise defend it if I want to. If a poor guy squats on my yard however I'm extremely unlikely to shoo him off of it before even helping out. And I think most people would behave the same. So there. :)

    The argument was never about whether or not memeverse is a nice guy.  I'm sure he is.  The question is whether, since he refuses to subscribe to my ethical system, I still have an obligation towards him if he becomes destitute?  In other words, what rules should we live by?

    memeverse:

    If you think most people would reject this well I guess what we can ultimately say about that is "we'll see", but I'm willing to bet that even some of your pals who have some issues with the idea of property ownership would find themselves "betraying" that old position once they see the state actually disintegrate and a true free market arise naturally, because they'll realize that the whole thing they really had a problem with all along is solely the state gang and their corporatist pals all along and not people who own property specifically, even land owners. Oh how I wish for that time you can't believe...

    Sadly, I think he'll be waiting a long time.  Big capital (corporatism, if you insist) needs the state and won't let it die.  Get rid of the former and you might stand a chance of dismantling the latter.

     

  • Sun, Nov 15 2009 1:38 PM In reply to

    • Jalfro
    • Not Ranked
    • Joined on Thu, Oct 1 2009
    • Posts 46

    Re: Anarcho socialism worse than statism?

    Well this is the last in this series of posts.  Not because there isn't more to say, there's plenty.  But it's getting tiresome picking through these arguments, most of which are rather weak.  But there is one last point I must pick up on since [1] it's highly relevant to a lot of stuff that goes on and [2] it illustrates quite nicely the confusion that arises from having a simplistic notion of ownership (private property).

    memeverse:

     I don't think ideas can be owned if you consider ideas distinct from a medium because ideas cannot exist without the medium. Medium is the only thing you can own with regards to ideas (your brain, hard drives, DVDs etc.).

    So if someone works for years writing a book, composing a piece of music, designing a piece of software, or making a scientific discovery, they are entitled to no return for their labour?  While if someone puts up a fence around a piece of land, even if they have no use for it, their property rights are unquestionable?

    Of course its very convenient for those of us who don't want to pay for our music and our software to believe this, but is it justice?  I don't think so.

    The Free Software movement doesn't fall into this trap.  This is the importance of the 'Free as in speech, not as in beer' slogan.  That is why Free Software always comes with a license.  Rules you have to obey.  Freedom isn't doing what you like, regardless of anyone else.  It is about respecting other people's rights, as you expect them to respect yours.

    And on that note I will finish.  Thanks to all for a stimulating, if occasionally frustrating, discussion.

  • Sun, Nov 15 2009 6:13 PM In reply to

    • Kawlinz
    • Top 100 Contributor
    • Joined on Mon, Feb 2 2009
    • Toronto
    • Posts 573

    Re: Anarcho socialism worse than statism?

    Jalfro:
    It is possible to imagine far worse scenarios.  You may have been hit by a bus and be bleeding to death.  You really don't want to have to be trying to trade your labour for you life in a situation like this.  Even in the situations described above, it may well be that no-one wants to trade with you, or offer you work.  Or maybe they do, but the only offer they will make is for you to sell yourself into slavery.  This is how slavery arose in ancient Greece.
    Would you sign with a DRO that punished someone for breaking a "contract" agreeing to be a slave? Would you provide any business to any company that was in business with a DRO that punished someone in this situation? Remember, contracts in a voluntary society can be broken at any time.

  • Sun, Nov 15 2009 6:32 PM In reply to

    Re: Anarcho socialism worse than statism?

    "Socialism" is completely notional. To want "socialism" is meaningless. If you want to give money to poor people, do so. If you only want to associate with people who give money to poor people, do so.

    That there are those who think of "socialism within the free market" is simply a product of statist ideology.

     

  • Thu, Dec 24 2009 11:52 PM In reply to

    • Jalfro
    • Not Ranked
    • Joined on Thu, Oct 1 2009
    • Posts 46

    Re: Anarcho socialism worse than statism?

    Kawlinz:

    Would you sign with a DRO that punished someone for breaking a "contract" agreeing to be a slave? Would you provide any business to any company that was in business with a DRO that punished someone in this situation? Remember, contracts in a voluntary society can be broken at any time.

    There are two problems with this.  First, if a contract can be broken at any time, it isn't a contract, it's meaningless. 

    Second, although I'm fairly sure that noone in this forum would deal with such a company, there are many people who would.  There is a big problem with the transparency of supply chains.  I'm pretty sure that a lot of stuff for sale in my local supermarket has been produced under conditions of near slavery, but I can't tell which.

     

  • Thu, Dec 24 2009 11:57 PM In reply to

    • Jalfro
    • Not Ranked
    • Joined on Thu, Oct 1 2009
    • Posts 46

    Re: Anarcho socialism worse than statism?

    Anonymous:

    If you want to give money to poor people, do so. If you only want to associate with people who give money to poor people, do so.

    Charity is not the issue.  Charity sucks.  Justice is the issue.  Everyone seems to have missed the point of the tramp story: it isn't the tramp who is the theif, it's the landowner.  He admits it.

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