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Latest post Sat, Jul 18 2009 8:38 PM by GregG. 79 replies.
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  • Wed, Jul 1 2009 8:21 AM

    • Allison
    • Top 500 Contributor
    • Joined on Thu, Feb 12 2009
    • Vancouver, BC
    • Posts 245
    • Diamond Donator

    proofthatgodexists.org

    http://www.proofthatgodexists.org/

    I just came across this, thought I'd share.  I find it really interesting how their argumentation right up until the end seems to be completely in line with the arguments Stef has made against God and religion.  Then you get to the end and they completely subvert things.  Try it out for yourself!  My thoughts are below.

     

    Look at this paragraph I got, in the preproof:

    The Bible teaches us that there are 2 types of people in this world, those who profess the truth of God's existence and those who suppress the truth of God's existence. The options of 'seeking' God, or not believing in God are unavailable. The Bible never attempts to prove the existence of God as it declares that the existence of God is so obvious that we are without excuse for not believing in Him.

    If you replace a few keywords, this sounds eerily similar to a point Stef often makes, about the truthhood of religion itself, as it happens.  What do you think is going on here?  It's like they're trying to tap into people's uneasiness about this phenomenon of truth denial, except they stick a lie in the place of truth and hope no one notices/cares(?).  Not an uncommon tactic, in my experience.  It's like leading a person through a hot, dry desert, promising them a drink at the end, and when they finally get there, offering them a vial of poison.  The urge to drink is so strong that some people actually drink it.

    Step 8 is a complete cop out; I was hoping for something with a little more meat.

  • Wed, Jul 1 2009 8:39 AM In reply to

    • Michael.J
    • Top 75 Contributor
    • Joined on Mon, Mar 17 2008
    • West Virginia
    • Posts 645
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    Re: proofthatgodexists.org

    That was supremely intellectually dishonest and insulting... Even more sad is how many will fall for it's bullying tactics.

    "False ideas never die; only their supporters eventually snuff it." - Hervé This

  • Wed, Jul 1 2009 8:48 AM In reply to

    • Luke C
    • Top 500 Contributor
    • Joined on Wed, May 20 2009
    • Jacksonville, FL
    • Posts 118

    Re: proofthatgodexists.org

    After hitting "Exit" twice after step 8 they send me to..... Disney?? 

    "I choose to think, therefore I am."

    - Luke Clayborn Hopper

     

    "'I hate a Roman named Status Quo!' he said to me. 'Stuff your eyes with wonder,' he said, 'live as if you'd drop dead in ten seconds. See the world. It's more fantastic than any dream made or paid for in factories. Ask no guarantees, ask for no security, there never was such an animal. And if there were, it would be related to the great sloth which hangs upside down in a tree all day every day, sleeping its life away. To hell with that,' he said, 'shake the tree and knock the great sloth down on his ass.'"

    - Ray Bradbury (Fahrenheit 451)

     

    Stop violence at it's primary source, end the state.

  • Wed, Jul 1 2009 9:07 AM In reply to

    Re: proofthatgodexists.org

    If I understand this argument correctly, we don't need external validation to prove that a god exists, and to prove that, just check the bible, it says so right in there Smile

    "Use the flame of knowledge to light candles, not peoples' hair"-- S. Molyneux

  • Wed, Jul 1 2009 9:53 AM In reply to

    • frake
    • Not Ranked
    • Joined on Fri, Feb 20 2009
    • Atlanta, GA USA
    • Posts 34

    Re: proofthatgodexists.org

     Thanks for the link, very entertaining.

    I followed the line of answers of universal absolutness and got to the final proof of:

    "Only in a universe governed by God can universal, immaterial, unchanging laws exist. Only in a universe governed by God can rational thinking be possible. We use rational thinking to prove things. Therefore... The proof that God exists is that without Him you couldn't prove anything."

    OK, let's say you (the website that is) are right, that means that God can't actually affect the universe in anyway other than through the natural laws of the universe, and this sets up a truth that can't be falsifiable; therefore, God is not proved.

     

  • Wed, Jul 1 2009 10:18 AM In reply to

    Re: proofthatgodexists.org

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  • Wed, Jul 1 2009 10:25 AM In reply to

    • Robert
    • Top 150 Contributor
    • Joined on Thu, Sep 20 2007
    • Posts 454
    • Philosopher King

    Re: proofthatgodexists.org

    "Don't you believe the sky is blue?  Well you see, then you have to believe in God because without God the sky would be orange.  It's really that simple."

  • Wed, Jul 1 2009 5:24 PM In reply to

    Re: proofthatgodexists.org

    I'm going to be completely honest with you...

    At the first step I selected that "logic does not exist" (I can't smell it? touch it? measure it with some instrument?)

    At the second step I selected that I used logic to come to the conclusion that logic does not exist (it is VALID however)

    It sent me back to step one....

    Any thoughts on how I should proceed?

  • Wed, Jul 1 2009 6:45 PM In reply to

    • blondie
    • Top 50 Contributor
    • Joined on Mon, Jun 23 2008
    • Conch Republic
    • Posts 996
    • Gold Donator

    Re: proofthatgodexists.org

    MrCapitalism:

    I'm going to be completely honest with you...

    At the first step I selected that "logic does not exist" (I can't smell it? touch it? measure it with some instrument?)

    At the second step I selected that I used logic to come to the conclusion that logic does not exist (it is VALID however)

    It sent me back to step one....

    Any thoughts on how I should proceed?

     

     Close the browser window.Angel

    Blondie asks why?

    If success or failure of the planet and of human beings depended on how I am and what I do ...
    How would I be? What would I do?" — R. Buckminster Fuller

    I never let my schooling interfere with my education.--Samuel Langhorne Clemens aka Mark Twain

  • Wed, Jul 1 2009 7:53 PM In reply to

    Re: proofthatgodexists.org

    Oh I see my error.. I selected that "absolute truth exists"

  • Thu, Jul 2 2009 11:02 PM In reply to

    • Luke C
    • Top 500 Contributor
    • Joined on Wed, May 20 2009
    • Jacksonville, FL
    • Posts 118

    Re: proofthatgodexists.org

    Stefan Molyneux:

     

    I love that evil funky sounding wah guitar that kicks in when the evil swindlers get their loot.

     

    "Has the emperor learned his lesson? Time will tell...."

    "I choose to think, therefore I am."

    - Luke Clayborn Hopper

     

    "'I hate a Roman named Status Quo!' he said to me. 'Stuff your eyes with wonder,' he said, 'live as if you'd drop dead in ten seconds. See the world. It's more fantastic than any dream made or paid for in factories. Ask no guarantees, ask for no security, there never was such an animal. And if there were, it would be related to the great sloth which hangs upside down in a tree all day every day, sleeping its life away. To hell with that,' he said, 'shake the tree and knock the great sloth down on his ass.'"

    - Ray Bradbury (Fahrenheit 451)

     

    Stop violence at it's primary source, end the state.

  • Thu, Jul 2 2009 11:44 PM In reply to

    Re: proofthatgodexists.org

    C. S. Lewis makes this same aweful argument. What reason do we have to assume that rationality is independant of nature? If the theory of evolution is true then there is no question why a "random universe" can create rationality.

    I think this arguement would only appeal to those that have had "rationality" only justify falsehoods and things that don't exist in their childhood and haven't examined their life. They have no confidence in rationality.

  • Fri, Jul 3 2009 7:33 AM In reply to

    • Michael.J
    • Top 75 Contributor
    • Joined on Mon, Mar 17 2008
    • West Virginia
    • Posts 645
    • Gold Donator

    Re: proofthatgodexists.org

    Remember119104:
    If the theory of evolution is true then there is no question why a "random universe" can create rationality.

    With all due respect and apologies if you already are aware of this and evolution through natural selection is the EXACT OPPOSITE of "random". Check out some of Dawkin's info on the subject. I am presently working my way through "On the Origin of the Species" by a one C. Darwin, something I was NEVER allowed to do growing up. I had always cringed at the argument of creationists/id-ers that evolution was just "random chance". Turns out that is a strawman of the actual theory. Only ONE event requires "random chance", the initial formation of life on a planet capable of supporting it. For that, we turn to statistics. If we assign a chance of a planet capable of supporting life at 1 in say 500 billion, an infantesimal number, that's still several BILLION planets in the universe capable of supporting life. You read that right, there are several hundred TRILLION planets out there as near as we can tell. If we say that the "life formation event" is a 1 in 5 billion chance of occuring, that means that of the approximately 100 billion planets capable of supporting life, 20 of them presently have it. After the "life formation event" on one of these 20 or so planets, natural selection takes over, much like a dog or horse or sheep or goat breeder takes over after a puppy is born with a trait he finds particularly attractive/useful/etc. In the case of natural selection though it's all about two things, survival and propogation. Live and breed. Any adaptation or change that improves an entities ability to do that in it's environment will be "selected" by nature.

    As to why a natural selection would "select" the rational facility, well, I think it's pretty obvious due to the fact that we are the most successful and prolific species on the planet. We approach viral or bacterial levels of success (in terms of survival/thriving), something that no other higher-order animal has been remotely capable of achieving. Our facility for rationality makes us capable of adaptation to environments on a MUCH wider scale than our animal cousins. Most animals can only survive in a fairly narrow geographical region. This fact is obscured by man's capacity, born of his rational facility, to alter and adapt his environment and even alter other life-forms to make one or both suitable for the other. This is really just scratching the surface as to why "rationality" would be selected. Dawkins talks a bit about it in "The God Delusion" if you are interested. I still have yet to listen to "The Ancestor's Tale" but I have it. I'm just waiting to finish Darwin's book first. Smile

    Funny enough, in a pretty common twist of psychological projection it is the "God Theory" that requires "random chance" moreso than evolution through natural selection. Seriously, what are the chances that an un-created entity would opt to "create something" and that something would just happen to turn out to be us?

    Anyway, just some interesting information I felt like sharing. I hope you don't mind.

    "False ideas never die; only their supporters eventually snuff it." - Hervé This

  • Fri, Jul 3 2009 10:34 AM In reply to

    Re: proofthatgodexists.org

    Michael.J:
    Anyway, just some interesting information I felt like sharing. I hope you don't mind.

    Hey Folks,

    Thanks for posting the link Allison. 

    One question Michael, how does one get to "that which is true," from "that which has helped us survive" in any evolutionary model?

     The atheist can't find God for the same reason that a thief can't find a policeman.

  • Fri, Jul 3 2009 1:54 PM In reply to

    • lch
    • Top 500 Contributor
    • Joined on Tue, Jun 9 2009
    • Santa Barbara, Calif.
    • Posts 183

    Re: proofthatgodexists.org

    Canuckfish:
    The atheist can't find God for the same reason that a thief can't find a policeman.

    Don't mean to interupt, but... isn't finding a policeman as easy as going down to the nearest police station? Or breaking a window and waiting for one to show up?

    Six Echo: What's god?
    Supervisor: Well, you know when you want something really bad and you close your eyes and wish for it?  God's the guy that ignores you.

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