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Latest post Thu, Aug 7 2008 9:43 AM by Wilton D. Alston. 18 replies.
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  • Sun, Jun 1 2008 10:20 PM

    • DDFM
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    My Emotional Resistance to Anarcho-Capitalism

    "During this century, intellectualism failed, and everyone knows it. In places like Russia and Germany, the common people agreed to loosen their grip on traditional folkways, mores, and religion, and let the intellectuals run with the ball, and they screwed everything up and turned the century into an abattoir. Those wordy intellectuals used to be merely tedious; now they seem kind of dangerous as well."

    -Neal Stephenson

    I find that, even if my intellectual snags to Anarcho-Capitalism were adequately addressed, an emotional anxiety would keep me from being able to support it whole-heartedly.  While it, well, feels inappropriate to talk about my feelings in an intellectual debate, I wonder if the emotions would only generate a fresh batch of reasons.

    So, here's my honest opinion.  The idea of anarcho-capitalism terrifies me.  While I love the free market and respect A-C for being the rational extreme of the free market, I've been hurt before.  Throughout the 20th century, starry-eyed idealists used the power of the state to strive towards utopia.  But all we got were gulags, starvation, and genocide.  I know that the Communists were the exact opposite ideology of our own, but they have taught me to fear things that look good "on paper."

    (Not that I think that Communism looks good on paper, but you catch my drift.  ;-) )

    We are talking about completely abolishing the public sector.  Are there any guarantees that we (and I use the first person plural because I am strongly sympathetic to your arguments) will not create a nightmare like the intellectuals that dreamed of completely abolishing private property?

    Or, to ask a more concrete question, do you believe that any society, from ancient Iceland to 1917 Russia to modern Iraq, is capable of anarcho-capitalism?  Are there certain infrastructures and philosophies that must be in place first?  Can anyone think of a realistic narrative to the creation of anarcho-capitalism?  And, most importantly of all, would there be any requisite change to "human nature?"

    Eudaimonia

  • Mon, Jun 2 2008 4:39 AM In reply to

    • Lukas
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    Re: My Emotional Resistance to Anarcho-Capitalism

     Hi!

     
    I think you point out a central question about A.-C. I face exactely the same problem as you do. Of course when you spend 20 years beliving in something, you can't change you mind in one day. As I am not expert on emotionnal matters, I'll let this part for more qualified FDR members.

     

    I'll answer to your more practical question: Aren't we mere dreamers and idealists that forget that human nature and selfishness can overthrow even the most noble ideas?

     I believe it is true that the problem with communism is a misunderstanding of the way human interact. It is also an overevaluation of their capacity to plan and think for other people. this is clearly not the case for A.-C as, by definition, an individual would be responsible only for his actions and life. Nonethelesss, we can ask ourselves if this radical individualisation of the society would drive to a complete dog-eat-dog situation and a massive increase of violence.
    Is very unlikely as the state is the principal source of violence in the world. Modern war is the ultimate form of violence "industrial slaughter". I can't possibly think of a way to do worse than that. An absolute decentralisation would have the effect of reducing to a minimum the potential of violence at the regional level. In addition, people always justify morally their action. Without nationalism and religion it is much harder to justify, bombings, shootings, raids, and so on.

    Here is how I see the emergeance of A.C. societies:
    In my view, for a ancap society to emerge, a majority of people has to understand and support it. The respect of the individual as equal in rights (as universally preferable behaviour shows) is a consequence of the former belief. It requires the respect of the non-aggression principle, pacifism. Of course violent Revolution is excluded. At this point, it appears that the way to reach this goal can only be by convincing people one by one Big Smile. The desertion of politics, armies, police and so on would lead to a per se fall of the Leviathan (mouhaha) That is what FDR tries to do.

     You can find a lot of informations in the podcasts. Maybe others forumers, who know them better than me can, point which ones exactely.

     

    By the way, your pirate show is really retarded. Better than ninja! Ninja2 

     

    Hope this helps! 

  • Mon, Jun 2 2008 5:43 AM In reply to

    • Nathan
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    Re: My Emotional Resistance to Anarcho-Capitalism

    While it, well, feels inappropriate to talk about my feelings in an intellectual debate

    (whisper) psst obviously he hasn't made it too far into the podcasts...  Wink

    So, here's my honest opinion.  The idea of anarcho-capitalism terrifies me.

    I admire that honesty.  Tell me more about the terror part, what is it specifically that terrifies you, what hurt you before?

    Or, to ask a more concrete question, do you believe that any society, from ancient Iceland to 1917 Russia to modern Iraq, is capable of anarcho-capitalism?  Are there certain infrastructures and philosophies that must be in place first?  Can anyone think of a realistic narrative to the creation of anarcho-capitalism?  And, most importantly of all, would there be any requisite change to "human nature?"

    Better yet, there's a completely voluntaristic, anarchist society right under our noses.  For instance, the unwritten contracts between politicians and lobbyists that are always fulfilled but never enforced, in fact they are unenforceable and people are constantly out to get those who have engaged in these unwritten, unenforcable contracts.

  • Mon, Jun 2 2008 8:05 AM In reply to

    Re: My Emotional Resistance to Anarcho-Capitalism

    Those are some excellent, excellent questions -- I think that's worth a podcast for sure! Smile

    Please join the new Freedomain Radio Facebook page:

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  • Mon, Jun 2 2008 5:25 PM In reply to

    • Vichy
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    Re: My Emotional Resistance to Anarcho-Capitalism

    Stefan Molyneux:
    Those are some excellent, excellent questions -- I think that's worth a podcast for sure! Smile

    A really smart guy who makes lectures almost on request.  Sort of like what a privately funded scholar might do.  A bit tangental (not to get off topic from these questions, which are extremely important for many people's understanding of anarchism) but it's funny to me that people wonder how anyone would get educated in a privatized world, and here Stef is doing it for free.

    "The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently." - Fritz

  • Mon, Jun 2 2008 6:14 PM In reply to

    Re: My Emotional Resistance to Anarcho-Capitalism

    ...it's funny to me that people wonder how anyone would get educated in a privatized world, and here Stef is doing it for free donations. FIXED

    "Use the flame of knowledge to light candles, not peoples' hair"-- S. Molyneux

  • Mon, Jun 2 2008 8:37 PM In reply to

    • Unitary
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    Re: My Emotional Resistance to Anarcho-Capitalism

    "Sometimes I feel the fear of uncertainty stinging clear" from anarcho-capitalism, so I just say, "Thankyou geolibertarianism!"
    DISCLAIMER: I hardly have any idea what I'm talking about. I give myself a 15% chance of making a valid point, with mostly cloudy skies
  • Tue, Jun 3 2008 11:10 AM In reply to

    • DDFM
    • Top 500 Contributor
    • Joined on Sun, Jun 1 2008
    • Louisiana
    • Posts 144

    Re: My Emotional Resistance to Anarcho-Capitalism

    Stefan Molyneux:
    Those are some excellent, excellent questions -- I think that's worth a podcast for sure! Smile 
     

    Lukas:
    By the way, your pirate show is really retarded. Better than ninja! Ninja2
     

    Oh, man.   Stef is going to do a podcast on my questions, and someone outside of my facebook sphere watched the pirate videos.  I've never felt more internet famous in my life!

    Eudaimonia

  • Tue, Jun 3 2008 11:11 AM In reply to

    • Vichy
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    • Joined on Sun, Jun 1 2008
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    • Posts 175

    Re: My Emotional Resistance to Anarcho-Capitalism

    bockman:
    ...it's funny to me that people wonder how anyone would get educated in a privatized world, and here Stef is doing it for free donations. FIXED

    Well, TANSTAFL.  But I don't think he's doing it FOR the donations, it's just that the donations are very important for his ability to do it; if that makes any sense to you.  Of course the elusive Molyneux probably himself knows best why he's doing it so this is all speculation.   Did you know the spellchecker underlines Molyneux?  Haha.

    "The surest way to corrupt a youth is to instruct him to hold in higher esteem those who think alike than those who think differently." - Fritz

  • Tue, Jun 3 2008 11:26 AM In reply to

    • DDFM
    • Top 500 Contributor
    • Joined on Sun, Jun 1 2008
    • Louisiana
    • Posts 144

    Re: My Emotional Resistance to Anarcho-Capitalism

    Nathan:

    Or, to ask a more concrete question, do you believe that any society,from ancient Iceland to 1917 Russia to modern Iraq, is capable ofanarcho-capitalism?  Are there certain infrastructures and philosophiesthat must be in place first?  Can anyone think of a realistic narrativeto the creation of anarcho-capitalism?  And, most importantly of all,would there be any requisite change to "human nature?"

    Better yet, there's a completely voluntaristic, anarchist society right under our noses.  For instance, the unwritten contracts between politicians and lobbyists that are always fulfilled but never enforced, in fact they are unenforceable and people are constantly out to get those who have engaged in these unwritten, unenforcable contracts.

    Does pointing to one place where voluntary contracts are efficient, moral, or effective prove that voluntary contracts would be efficient, moral, and effective in all cases?  I don't think that it does.

    I don't feel educated enough to have a position yet.  I'm going to listen to the DRO podcasts before I say any more.

    And I'm interested to hear Stef's take on the whole starry-eyed dreamers bit.

    Eudaimonia

  • Fri, Jun 6 2008 9:37 AM In reply to

    Re: My Emotional Resistance to Anarcho-Capitalism

    A market economy rests on a few basic assumptions, some of which are that individuals are rational economic agents and that persons are consistent in their economic choices.

    Since ALL of the means of production in a stateless society would be privately owned, then no radical modulation of human nature is required.  Most of the time, people act rationally.  most of the time, people are consistent.  So in the economic sense, this would be all that is necessary.

    What also is needed, in my opinion, is education away from the state.  People commonly see government as a given and something wholly necessary.  Without this education, I feel libertarianism wouldn't get very far.

  • Tue, Jun 17 2008 9:22 AM In reply to

    Re: My Emotional Resistance to Anarcho-Capitalism

    DDFM:
    Nathan:

    Or, to ask a more concrete question, do you believe that any society,from ancient Iceland to 1917 Russia to modern Iraq, is capable ofanarcho-capitalism?  Are there certain infrastructures and philosophiesthat must be in place first?  Can anyone think of a realistic narrativeto the creation of anarcho-capitalism?  And, most importantly of all,would there be any requisite change to "human nature?"

    Better yet, there's a completely voluntaristic, anarchist society right under our noses.  For instance, the unwritten contracts between politicians and lobbyists that are always fulfilled but never enforced, in fact they are unenforceable and people are constantly out to get those who have engaged in these unwritten, unenforcable contracts.

    Does pointing to one place where voluntary contracts are efficient, moral, or effective prove that voluntary contracts would be efficient, moral, and effective in all cases?  I don't think that it does.

    I don't feel educated enough to have a position yet.  I'm going to listen to the DRO podcasts before I say any more.

    And I'm interested to hear Stef's take on the whole starry-eyed dreamers bit.

    I'm very late to this debate and for that I apologize.  I've been mulling over an essay for LRC that (I hope) addresses some of this paradigm.  People forget, I think, that every societal construct is based upon:  shared beliefs, Schelling Points, and yes, even propaganda.  In other words, we learn from very early ages much of the behavior that undergirds a peaceful society.  (Hat tip:  "All I Really Need To Know I Learned In Kindergarten" -- although that title is probably a stretch on the concept.)  On top of that is layered a belief in the necessity of the State and a belief in the ostensibly otherwise unavailable benefits of statism.  Both of these latter beliefs are taught at government schools and in fact are seminal to their existence and the need for them.

    I submit that without this inculcation, the U.S. would have an uprising like the Whiskey Rebellion every other week!  (At least that's my current working premise.)

    ...there is no need to prove that anarchy is stable or possible, since even statism requires "work" to be stable, particularly given the universally preferable behaviors upon which market anarchy is based.
     

    "There are none so enslaved as those who falsely believe they are free." ~ Goethe

    "Everything the state says is a lie and everything it has, it has stolen." ~ Nietzsche, from "Thus Spake Zarathustra"

  • Thu, Jun 19 2008 4:28 PM In reply to

    Re: My Emotional Resistance to Anarcho-Capitalism

    As mentioned above, I was in the midst of a column for LRC on this subject.  I present it below.  Comments welcome.

    Why Don’t More People Realize That a Stable Statist Society Requires Belief?

    - By Wilton D. Alston

    “The sovereign, after taking individuals one by one in his powerful hands and kneading them to his liking, reaches out to embrace society as a whole. Over it he spreads a fine mesh of uniform, minute, and complex rules, through which not even the most original minds and most vigorous souls can poke their heads above the crowd. He does not break men's wills but softens, bends, and guides them. He seldom forces anyone to act but consistently opposes action. He does not destroy things but prevents them from coming into being. Rather than tyrannize, he inhibits, represses, saps, stifles, and stultifies, and in the end he reduces each nation to nothing but a flock of timid and industrious animals, with the government as its shepherd.

    ~ Alexis de Tocqueville, Democracy in America, Vol. 2 [1840]

    As I read Butler Shaffer’s outstanding piece “The Messenger is the Message”, which was ostensibly about Tim Russert, but was actually about so much more, several conclusions occurred to me.  First, Dr. Shaffer almost always seems to cover the concepts I’ve been considering better than I would have.  Secondly, the ironic timing of his essay confirmed that more seasoned libertarian philosophers have apparently noticed what just occurred to me.  That was:  the State wouldn’t “work” if the population didn’t “believe” either!  The apparatus of the State, fine-tuned in the U.S. since the time of Washington and Jefferson, has risen to a level of fine art as it generates a belief system in its necessity while simultaneously remaining just out of view.

    Given that we are both anarchists, it is no surprise that I have cited Dr. Shaffer so many times, most recently in my “Anarchy, Anarchy – Wherefore Art Thou?” piece.  That the solid logic that undergirds market anarchism – or whatever you want to call it – remains somehow in doubt is one of the most troubling and fascinating subjects to which I apply any available skills of analysis and modest writing talents.  Why is it that almost any suggestion of even the possibility of a peaceful, anarchistic society is met with pseudo-intellectual derision or worse yet, insulting, pat-on-the-head “utopian dreamer” condescension?  Excluding the corruption of those who enrich themselves with the State, it is met with these responses because honest people have been programmed, over years and years of public (Read:  statist propaganda-laden) schooling.

    I do not draw this conclusion – that the stability of the State requires belief – anew in the sense that no one has said it before.  Thinkers such as Hoppe have eloquently spoken about the fact that the State obtains its legitimacy from the belief of those upon whom it aggresses.  I draw this conclusion in direct contrast to those who question the possibility that an anarchistic society is possible, as they simultaneously fail to note that a severely freedom-limited, statist regime is possible only as a direct result of shared beliefs of those imposed upon by that State.

    His Imperial Programming is Strong

    When I say “people have been programmed” I’m not talking just about other people.  I include myself in that category as well.  The phenomenon of which I speak came into view recently, again ironically, in a thread I was reading on the FreedomainRadio Discussion Forum (FDR), the creation of another staunch anarchist (and one of my occasional co-authors) Stefan Molyneux.  In that thread, entitled “My Emotional Resistance to Anarcho-Capitalism” the initial poster summed up the feelings of many budding anarchists with:

    We [people who suggest that anarchy is not only possible but also preferable] are talking about completely abolishing the public sector.  Are there any guarantees that we (and I use the first person plural because I am strongly sympathetic to your arguments) will not create a nightmare like the intellectuals that dreamed of completely abolishing private property?

    Or, to ask a more concrete question, do you believe that any society, from ancient Iceland to 1917 Russia to modern Iraq, is capable of anarcho-capitalism?  Are there certain infrastructures and philosophies that must be in place first?  Can anyone think of a realistic narrative to the creation of anarcho-capitalism?  And, most importantly of all, would there be any requisite change to "human nature?"

    To say that many an anarchist has heard these questions more than once would be a gargantuan understatement.  If you read FDR with any regularity you will probably come across several similar questions, posed by very sincere people with very sincere concerns, at least twice a week.

    Furthermore, I would bet my very last money that any person who alludes to having the slightest sympathies for even the so-called limited government ostensibly envisioned by the founding fathers would be besieged by similar questions regarding, among other things:  maintenance of the common goods, the certain destruction of any semblance of peace, and (of course) the eventual rise of roaming rape gangs.  (Mad Max lives!  That the prevalence of bath tub ring and the lack of a cure for hemorrhoids are not also mentioned just as often is probably dumb luck.)   Having personally taken part in more than a couple of these debates with thoughtful people spanning the educational spectrum from Ph.D. to high school drop-out, I still didn’t understand the stickiness of such reasoning until recently.

    Same Question, Same Answer

    Note the words I’ve emphasized in the quotations above.  Is there any “guarantee” that the abolition of the State won’t create a nightmare?  Is society “capable” of anarchy?  Can one furnish a “realistic narrative” of the past creation of an anarcho-capitalist society?  Verily I say unto thee (yes, even an atheist can use Bible-esque sentence structure) I’ve been answering these same questions, or variations of them since (and before) my “A Libertarian Cheat Sheet” column.  Worse yet, I’ve not been alone.  Many a gifted, and often more talented writer than I, has attempted to do the same thing.

    Still, this “emotional resistance” to the basic truth and validity of market anarchism (and more distressing, a psychological blind spot to the foundational nature of the universally preferable behavior upon which it is so firmly based) rises like a Phoenix out of the ashes of the burnt, inconsistent, barely noticeable logic – and use the term very loosely – of statism!  What in the hell?

    What valid guarantee has ever been offered for any societal construct?  None.  Is society capable of anarchy?  Of course.  If not, then no peaceful voluntary interactions would ever take place.  This might surprise a few statists, but I haven’t had to call the police to help me deal with another human being in, well, ever.  I wander through shopping malls, crowed streets, open-air markets in the U.S. and abroad, interacting with other people and vendors willy-nilly, with no concern that around the corner there lurks a criminal waiting to pounce.  I’ve been in ghettos, or, if you prefer, inner cities, all over the U.S. and in fact, unfamiliar communities all over the world.

    Never once have I thought I should take a cop with me, just in case!  I’ve also never mistakenly concluded that it was only because a policeman or other “law giver” was close-at-hand that kept the hideous folks at bay.  In fact I defy anyone to logically conclude that the presence of the threat of police presence provides one ounce of protection.  Consider:  I can absolutely guarantee that in some communities with which I am intimately familiar, a robber could break into your home, beat you to within an inch of your life, take a shower, roll a huge spliff, and smoke it completely before you got off hold with 9-1-1.  How’s that for a realistic narrative?

    As I responded to that poster, I will similarly declare here.  People forget, I think, that every societal construct is based upon:  shared beliefs, Schelling Points, and yes, maybe even propaganda to some extent.  In other words, we learn from very early ages much, if not all, of the behavior that undergirds our societies.  (Hat tip:  “All I Really Need To Know I Learned In Kindergarten” -- although that book title is probably a stretch on the concept.)  Exactly which lessons are taught, and in what order, given what priority, which are omitted, undergirded or justified by which authority, is a direct result on pre-existing and long-standing societal mores.  Happily for us anarchists, it turns out that the undergirding premises of anarchy exist as universally preferable behavior!

    A school child in Iraq already “knows” (and more importantly accepts) many of the premises that will govern his life choices and behavior.  Exactly the same can be said about a middle schooler in North Dakota.  (That some folks believe that the current version of freedom in the U.S. – such as it exists – is not taught, is troubling, but expected.  When paternalism is mistaken for patriotism even though neither is a proper substitute for a logical, evidence-based, dare-I-say, scientific paradigm for distinguishing truth from falsehood, this is the outcome.)  On top of these early premises is layered a belief in the necessity of the State and a belief in the ostensibly otherwise unavailable benefits of statism.  Both of these latter beliefs are taught in government schools and are seminal to their existence and the need for them.  In fact, the (un)stated mission of government schools spells this out for all to see.

    A brief visit to the website for the Alliance for the Separation of School and State provides a few educational (pun intended) quotes from the past.

    “Our schools have been scientifically designed to prevent over-education from happening. The average American [should be] content with their humble role in life...”

    ~ William T. Harris, U.S. Commissioner of Education in the late 1800s

    “Only a system of state-controlled schools can be free to teach whatever the welfare of the State may demand.”

    ~ Ellwood P. Cubberley, former superintendent of San Diego schools and Dean of Stanford University School of Education (late 1800s-early 1900s)

    Now, I am not suggesting that once the propaganda has taken root in one’s mind that he cannot unplug from the socket.  People take the red pill all the time.  But it is indeed difficult to do so.  Nor am I suggesting, as the Alliance for the Separation of School and State seems to imply, that it is primarily via religious teaching that society can be peaceful.   My opinions on any type of unquestioned authority, no matter its genesis (pun intended, again) should be clear by this time.  Think for yourself.  Treat people with universalizability in mind.  The argument from morality informs us.

    Far too much of a statist society is based upon the acceptance of naked authority, and this reliance and belief begins very early in everyone’s life.  Many a parent has answered his child with, “…because I said so!” in response to incessant use of the anti-authoritarian’s favorite question, “Why?”  (I openly admit to extreme embarrassment that I ever uttered those words, but I digress.)  The raw fact is that the State says, “…because I said so” often enough and in so many situations that the practice can easily retreat into the white noise of what we mistake for a civilized existence.

    Conclusion

    Contrary to the most basic premise of the garden-variety anti-anarchist – that under anarchy society would devolve into chaos – it is far truer that without the free-thought-squelching grip of statist propaganda, the typical statist society is much closer to pandemonium than almost any anarchistic society.  I submit that without the inculcation in the supposedly-inherent goodness of the State, the U.S. would have an uprising like the Whiskey Rebellion every other week!  Let us place this assertion in context.

    The amount of tax on whiskey imposed by Alexander Hamilton’s mercantilist scheme amounted to about 7 to 18 cents per gallon.  Today there is an average of about $1.16 of tax per pack of cigarettes.  (One should note that that the amount of taxation on cigarettes is far from uniform, as was the case with the whiskey tax.  Major tobacco states have an average of about $0.33 per pack while other states average out at about $1.27 per pack.)  When you hear about cigarette producers or cigarette consumers taking up arms and refusing to pay the taxes on cigarettes let me know!

    Instead, the bulk of the population seems to agree that [place government program here] is not only a good idea, but also that without it [place negative outcome here] would most assuredly happen, and all without one shred of evidence!  The faith – the belief – that supports not only the presence of heavily statist practices, but also the apparent willingness with which they are accepted provides ample evidence that the government educational system is producing exactly the effect for which it was created.  (One may lament the apparent lack of good performance in the three R’s, but let us conclude that an ignorant statist is very likely a better citizen for the coercive state than an informed anarchist and leave it at that!)

    As such, there is no need to prove that anarchy is stable or possible, since statism itself requires "work" to be stable, despite the obviousness of universally preferable behaviors upon which market anarchism and fundamentally peaceful human interaction, is based.

    "There are none so enslaved as those who falsely believe they are free." ~ Goethe

    "Everything the state says is a lie and everything it has, it has stolen." ~ Nietzsche, from "Thus Spake Zarathustra"

  • Sun, Jul 20 2008 11:03 AM In reply to

    • Lucifer
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    • Joined on Sun, Jul 20 2008
    • Baltimore
    • Posts 23

    Re: My Emotional Resistance to Anarcho-Capitalism

    Under what conditions do you think private defense agencies will invade and then replace territorial monopolists of violence? Is it necessary and sufficient for the masses to become anarcho-capitalists?

    I read somewhere than Stefan predicts the collapse of the Western governments within mere decades, can anyone direct me to where he outlines his argument?

  • Wed, Jul 23 2008 3:22 PM In reply to

    • Lucifer
    • Not Ranked
    • Joined on Sun, Jul 20 2008
    • Baltimore
    • Posts 23

    Re: My Emotional Resistance to Anarcho-Capitalism

    Anyone!? Stefan has hundreds (thousands?) of listeners, surely one of them can help me out.

     

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