Freedomain Radio

in
Latest post Sat, Mar 29 2008 1:32 PM by plume. 119 replies.
Page 1 of 8 (120 items) 1 2 3 4 5 Next > ... Last »
Sort Posts: Previous Next
  • Fri, Dec 28 2007 3:25 PM

    The "Molyneux Project"

  • Fri, Dec 28 2007 3:49 PM In reply to

    Re: The "Molyneux Project"

    This is sweet! I'd be really interested in seeing you debate more intellectually capable and honest people. Obviously the attacks you get on youtube are of no consequence, but to see someone logically debate you would be very productive. Hope this goes well :D
  • Fri, Dec 28 2007 3:52 PM In reply to

    Re: The "Molyneux Project"

    I agree that this should prove interesting.

    ...let's see what happens. 

    "There are none so enslaved as those who falsely believe they are free." ~ Goethe

    "Everything the state says is a lie and everything it has, it has stolen." ~ Nietzsche, from "Thus Spake Zarathustra"

  • Fri, Dec 28 2007 5:56 PM In reply to

    Re: The "Molyneux Project"

    Haha oh goodness... Well, I suppose I should at least point out that the correct URL is http://libertarian-left.blogspot.com/search/label/The%20Molyneux%20Project

    I don't like double standards, so if you guys can point out weaknesses in my arguments, and I agree that they're actually weaknesses, then I'll be more than happy to post them directly on the blog.  Thanks for the interest!

  • Fri, Dec 28 2007 6:47 PM In reply to

    Re: The "Molyneux Project"

    Dont worry we arent aggressive towards people that disagree with us, mostly just aggressive towards people that are aggressive towards us. If you come at it with a critical but questioning and honest tone I dont think anyone is going to be super critical of anything you say.

     One thing I find kind of funny is that this is a lose/lose situation for you. Either you cant prove his theories wrong in which case you lose $50 or you do prove him wrong in which case you've just been sent a fancy door stop. Not that this exercise wont be profitable for all involved, but I thought I'd point that out :D

  • Fri, Dec 28 2007 7:17 PM In reply to

    Re: The "Molyneux Project"

    No way, if I lose, then my entire philosophical paradigm gets turned upside down for $50; my political philosophy course this past semester cost me far more, and I came out agreeing with the general views I held when I went in (though they are certainly more refined and better structured; I don't want to slight my school's excellent department).  And if I win, then I get the satisfaction of having furthered the libertarian cause by exposing the flaws in a particular faulty piece of reasoning, and of having helped in some small sense to pave the way for my more left-wing approach to libertarian philosophy, which is not always congruent to Stefan's views.  As far as I can tell, this is a win/win situation for me.

    And hell, I set up that blog a few days ago so that I could have a repository for my ideas.  I never expected that people would have heard of it already.  In fact, I'm not completely sure how Stefan found it so quickly; I just posted the first part of The Molyneux Project today!  In any case, I'm sure that we'll get along fine; I'm not trying to attack anyone, I just want to figure out what to make of this whole UPB phenomenon.
     

  • Fri, Dec 28 2007 9:56 PM In reply to

    • jimmy
    • Top 50 Contributor
    • Joined on Sun, Feb 25 2007
    • Charleston, South Carolina (US)
    • Posts 1,290

    Re: The "Molyneux Project"

    If the first couple parts of the critique are any sign of what's to come this will be an extremely daunting process. From the start there is a large amount of space discussing how UPB will not appeal to academia???

     

  • Sat, Dec 29 2007 12:53 AM In reply to

    Re: The "Molyneux Project"

    For whatever reason, libertarians often seem to think that being trained in philosophy is a handicap to doing philosophy.  Perhaps an analogy would help.  If you thought you had designed a rocket that could cheaply and easily take a man to Mars and back, you would probably want the best engineers to take a look at it.  Since they hadn't accomplished what you had accomplished, perhaps you might question how good they could possibly be at their jobs, since a non-engineer like you had outdone them, and with comparatively little effort.  But nevertheless, you probably wouldn't want to build and get on board the rocket without knowing that they had checked out your design.

    Let's say the engineers showed up, and you took out your blueprints, drawn in crayon, and started telling them about the "fire-shooting thing on the bottom."  The engineers would probably look at you with contempt and not bother to listen to another word.  That they would do so does not imply that they're arrogant jackasses; most people who think they've designed what you say you've designed, and present their design the way that you've presented it, are wrong and not worth the time it takes to hear them out.  But that isn't to say that your rocket couldn't work.  It's totally possible to design a rocket without knowing the names of all the parts and without presenting the design in the "expert-approved" way.  It's just that if your aim is to convince the experts, then you should probably learn how to talk to them.

    I don't think that's such a ridiculous standard to expect of someone who is explicitly aiming to revolutionize the fields of political and moral philosophy.  I'm sure Stefan doesn't want to end up being the next Ayn Rand (unless he does, in which case I might be wasting my time Big Smile)

  • Sat, Dec 29 2007 12:54 AM In reply to

    Re: The "Molyneux Project"

    P.S. I don't mean to imply that Stefan's presentation of his ideas is in any way inept.  I only mean that it's important that work in the field of philosophy be done in a way that will stand up to criticism by philosophers.  If Stefan's book is filled with points that philosophers will recoil at, they will likely put it down before he is able to properly represent himself.
  • Sat, Dec 29 2007 1:23 AM In reply to

    • Mr. C
    • Top 25 Contributor
    • Joined on Sat, Apr 1 2006
    • North America
    • Posts 1,662
    • Philosopher King

    Re: The "Molyneux Project"

    DonnywithanA:
    P.S. I don't mean to imply that Stefan's presentation of his ideas is in any way inept.  I only mean that it's important that work in the field of philosophy be done in a way that will stand up to criticism by philosophers.  If Stefan's book is filled with points that philosophers will recoil at, they will likely put it down before he is able to properly represent himself.
    Unfortunately, your standard is what academic philosophers will accept, rather than what is correct.  Judging by the output of academic philosophers, that leaves quite a bit to be desired.

    I like your conflation of "philosophers" with people who call themselves philosophers, though.  It's a nice rhetorical trick; one that even you see through when you say that those people are so finicky that they run away from things that cause them a bit of discomfort upfront ("Screw the Socratic method, I'm outta here !").  I'm glad Stef gets rid of those people early on.

  • Sat, Dec 29 2007 2:04 AM In reply to

    Re: The "Molyneux Project"

    I'll put it this way for you.  If I weren't an eager young libertarian on winter break, I wouldn't have touched Stefan's book.  In fact, if he hadn't personally offered to give it to me, I probably wouldn't have picked it up.  If I hadn't made a bet on the content of the book, I wouldn't have likely made it past the first few pages.

    The honest truth is that there's a whole lot of philosophy out there that I'd like to read, and I'm not reading it in order to read Stefan's book.  I'm enjoying the opportunity to be involved in something new and exciting, and the ability to actually offer feedback to someone I respect.  But at the same time, I was probably going to read a little bit of Michael Otsuka's Libertarianism without Inequality and G. A. Moore's Self-Ownership, Freedom, and Equality, and then try to get my hands on a copy of Derek Parfit's Reasons and Persons if I weren't reading Stefan's book.  Say what you want about the quality of academic philosophy (I certainly don't agree with Otsuka or Moore), but it's important that I read those books.  I'm working on my thesis concerning ethical dilemmas arising from global climate change, and their ideas will play a role in my work.  I'm not sure that Stefan's will.

    I really don't want to come out sounding like I don't think much of Stefan, because that's totally not the case.  He's incredibly intelligent and insightful, which is why I'm reading his book.  But my point is, if you knew what you were talking about, then you wouldn't be saying what you're saying.  Think what you will about academic philosophy, but what you're saying is essentially the same as saying that you know more about global warming than climate scientists, or that you know more about art than an art critic, or...oh wait, you might think those things.

     I guess the only reason I might be coming off as hostile is that you suggested that my standard of "what academic philosophers will accept" is somehow weaker than "what is correct."  In reality, non-academic "philosophers" will accept a lot of arguments as being "correct," even though they are fundamentally flawed.  Academic philosophers are trained for years to be able to spot flaws in arguments, and to interpret precisely what is said.  To think that an academic philosopher will be somehow less able to spot an incorrect argument than anyone else would be preposterous.  In fact, my entire point is that it is this ability to detect flawed arguments that will turn many professional philosophers off of Stefan's book prematurely.  The thinking is not, "Oh, this guy hasn't studied Berkeley enough to be in our club."  It's rather that "If this guy would say something so obviously objectionable as _______, as if it were common sense, he couldn't possibly have enough experience with philosophical ideas and argumentation to produce something worth looking at.  I'm going to go read something else instead."  And let me be clear about two things: as an academic philosopher, I personally know that I put down works of academic philosophy when I read things that produce that kind of response, and I am finding a bunch of ideas in Stefan's book that would produce that kind of response.  I just think that Stefan's errors are arising when he wanders outside of his area of focus, and he would avoid these problems if he stuck to what he's best at, which is ethics and political philosophy.

    It's past my bedtime; I hope this hasn't been gibberish!  Smile 

  • Sat, Dec 29 2007 2:11 AM In reply to

    • Mr. C
    • Top 25 Contributor
    • Joined on Sat, Apr 1 2006
    • North America
    • Posts 1,662
    • Philosopher King

    Re: The "Molyneux Project"

    DonnywithanA:
    I really don't want to come out sounding like I don't think much of Stefan, because that's totally not the case.  He's incredibly intelligent and insightful, which is why I'm reading his book.  But my point is, if you knew what you were talking about, then you wouldn't be saying what you're saying.  Think what you will about academic philosophy, but what you're saying is essentially the same as saying that you know more about global warming than climate scientists, or that you know more about art than an art critic, or...oh wait, you might think those things.
    Unfortunately, mere assertions that I'm wrong or unhinged aren't argument.
    DonnywithanA:
    In reality, non-academic "philosophers" will accept a lot of arguments as being "correct," even though they are fundamentally flawed.  Academic philosophers are trained for years to be able to spot flaws in arguments, and to interpret precisely what is said.  To think that an academic philosopher will be somehow less able to spot an incorrect argument than anyone else would be preposterous.  In fact, my entire point is that it is this ability to detect flawed arguments that will turn many professional philosophers off of Stefan's book prematurely.  The thinking is not, "Oh, this guy hasn't studied Berkeley enough to be in our club."  It's rather that "If this guy would say something so obviously objectionable as _______, as if it were common sense, he couldn't possibly have enough experience with philosophical ideas and argumentation to produce something worth looking at.  I'm going to go read something else instead."  And let me be clear about two things: as an academic philosopher, I personally know that I put down works of academic philosophy when I read things that produce that kind of response, and I am finding a bunch of ideas in Stefan's book that would produce that kind of response.  I just think that Stefan's errors are arising when he wanders outside of his area of focus, and he would avoid these problems if he stuck to what he's best at, which is ethics and political philosophy.
    I already understood all of this.  You may want to investigate why you immediately assumed I didn't, since you're a somewhat trained philosopher.  I'll give you a hint: it's a false dichotomy that you also use with Stef's arguments.

     

  • Sat, Dec 29 2007 5:02 AM In reply to

    • JamesP
    • Top 10 Contributor
    • Joined on Mon, May 28 2007
    • In Philly Now / Back in Denver Feb 2012
    • Posts 3,042
    • Philosopher King

    Re: The "Molyneux Project"

    DonnywithanA:

    And hell, I set up that blog a few days ago so that I could have a repository for my ideas.  I never expected that people would have heard of it already.  In fact, I'm not completely sure how Stefan found it so quickly; I just posted the first part of The Molyneux Project today!  In any case, I'm sure that we'll get along fine; I'm not trying to attack anyone, I just want to figure out what to make of this whole UPB phenomenon.
     

    One possibility is if google indexes your blog, he got a Google Alert.

    They're nifty.  Smile

    To respond to another point made later, Stefan is certainly trained in philosophy, so even if the attitude you describe is endemic to most libertarians, I have a hard time seeing how that attitude applies to Stefan in particular.

    I get a little prickly feeling when "acceptance by academics" is used as a criterion for the veracity of UPB... I don't know much about you, but you seem to self-identify as a libertarian.  Hence, you might be (or very soon will be) aware that modern academia is heavily enmeshed with the state.  That degree of collusion impels me to cast a suspicious eye towards philosophies that they engender.

    In other words, academics are, more or less, heavily invested in the current system and so will speak accordingly as to its continuance.

    It's not so much that they are wrong out-of-hand... just more that you will have to consider why they're saying what they're saying as much as or even to a greater degree than what they say.  This, of course, applies to all philosophers.

    To bounce off of the rocket engineer metaphor, if the vast majority of engineers wax eloquent about a rocket that explodes every time it reaches 15,000 feet, saying that such a rocket is the pinnacle of rocketry (and that rockets are supposed to explode at 15,000 feet!), you might reconsider whether their opinion is at all valuable.

  • Sat, Dec 29 2007 5:18 AM In reply to

    Re: The "Molyneux Project"

    As far as I can tell, this is a win/win situation for me.

    I know, I was joking :D

  • Sat, Dec 29 2007 5:26 AM In reply to

    Re: The "Molyneux Project"

    Think what you will about academic philosophy, but what you're saying is essentially the same as saying that you know more about global warming than climate scientists, or that you know more about art than an art critic, or...oh wait, you might think those things.

    The problem academics have with philosophy is that there is an end to theoretical philosophy. Once you understand logic and the scientific method there really isnt anything left to the theoretical side of philosophy and it only becomes useful in practice. The practice of philosophy doesnt require more academics, it simply requires individuals to live their philisophical values in their personal life. But the academics want to keep their jobs and so create a whole host of nonsensical theoretical philosophies to make it seem like the theoretical side of philosophy is still needed. This produces such great theoretical frameworks like postmodernism. Academic philosophers are probably the most rediculous of the academic intellectuals.

Page 1 of 8 (120 items) 1 2 3 4 5 Next > ... Last »
Copyright 2005-2012 By Stefan Molyneux
Powered by Community Server (Non-Commercial Edition), by Telligent Systems