Freedomain Radio

in
Latest post 10-21-2007 5:04 PM by Dtomboy. 396 replies.
Page 24 of 27 (397 items) « First ... < Previous 22 23 24 25 26 Next > ... Last »
Sort Posts: Previous Next
  • 10-09-2007 8:56 PM In reply to

    Re: FDR 747 Ron Paul

    Spaghettim0nst3r:
    He's campaigning as a limited government constitutionalist, on that platform there is no hypocrisy in taking a pay cut.

    Can you explain yourself?

    The platform is wrong - substitute dishonest or corrupt if you choose.  Just because his stated goal is internally consistent with his message/platform it doesn't mean he's right.

    Plus, people campaign on all kinds of things ("No new taxes," "he kept us out of war," "family values," etc.)  Even if you'd want to take the argument-from-effect approach, I'd bet that the odds of that are about the same as winning the lottery.

    EDIT:

    Ah, right, the hypocritical part.  He says he's interested in freedom and liberty.  He works for the government.  Freedom?  Liberty?  Not so much. 

  • 10-09-2007 11:59 PM In reply to

    • Rodzilla!
    • Top 10 Contributor
    • Joined on 03-09-2006
    • Ancapistan - Southern California Prefecture
    • Posts 2,649
    • Philosopher King

    Re: FDR 747 Ron Paul

    Spaghettim0nst3r:

    He's campaigning as a limited government constitutionalist, on that platform there is no hypocrisy in taking a pay cut.

    Can you explain yourself?

    Sure.  If Ron Paul has ever used the word "moral" in any of his campaign speeches, and it's not preceded by "My actions are not," then he's a hypocrite.
     

  • 10-10-2007 12:37 AM In reply to

    Re: FDR 747 Ron Paul

    I agree with a lot of the anti-Ron Paul posts because I, too, want zero government, not small government.  But, right now we're at huge, about-to-collapse government, and I think if it collapses with out at least some talk of the ideas behind wanting small government, it's going to lead to a lot worse of a situation before it gets better... if it gets better.  So, I support Ron Paul just as a direction towards freedom, not as the goal.

    I know you are all saying but the goal is the important thing, we have to focus on people breaking all the other barriers first before they will get rid of government.  And I do agree, but I wonder, in your own experiences, did you go from gung-ho statists to market anarchists in the flip of a switch?  If not, why do you expect others to do the same?  I would imagine most posters here are former libertarian/minarchists, like Ron Paul.  Why do you so vigorously oppose someone who could possibly influence a great number of people toward  libertarianism/minarchism, which in turn could turn them towards anarcho-capitalism?  Why do you demand the flip of the anarchist switch for Ron Paul supporters, when you, yourself, likely did not undergo the same instantaneous switch?

    Democracy: The Newest Innovation in Livestock Management Techniques!

    When people kill for a lie, they also murder the truth. - Stefan Molyneux

    百聞は一見にしかず。- Japanese Proverb, "Hearing something 100 times can't beat seeing it once." The only way to spread philosophy.

    People who teach their kids conclusions are harming their kids ability to understand reality, and are thus abusers. Those who teach methods are not. This is a difference in kind. People who teach their kids the conclusion that Santa Claus exists are not inflicting a lifetime full of guilt or fear. Those who teach that Jesus Christ exists are. The latter are far more egregious. This is a difference in degree.

  • 10-10-2007 6:55 AM In reply to

    Re: FDR 747 Ron Paul

    It's not a matter of "strategy" - it's a matter of honesty.

    Also, if Ayn Rand had had integrity with regards to her own principles, I wouldn't have wasted 20 years in a mutated form for minarchism.

    I'd just like to save time for others. That's the only way we can move forward. 

    Please join the new Freedomain Radio Facebook page:

    Freedomain Radio - The Largest Philosophy Conversation in the World | Promote Your Page Too


    All Free! - Audio, PDF. Print starting @ $9.99+
    Freedomain Radio Needs Your Support!


    My status

  • 10-10-2007 7:15 AM In reply to

    Re: FDR 747 Ron Paul

    That's a really good point.  But during those 20 years were there as many sources for market anarchy as there is today?  That is, I read Ayn Rand and got into a mutated form of some sort of -ism, but that was just a few years ago... well two since I read Atlas Shrugged.  I was able to find the right path very quickly due to the volumes of information on the net and exposure to Ron Paul.  Granted, straight to the truth is the best path, but your material is too intense for some people.  Can we not look at the breaking of the state-addiction like a 12-step program... except with just two steps... minarchism then truth?

    Democracy: The Newest Innovation in Livestock Management Techniques!

    When people kill for a lie, they also murder the truth. - Stefan Molyneux

    百聞は一見にしかず。- Japanese Proverb, "Hearing something 100 times can't beat seeing it once." The only way to spread philosophy.

    People who teach their kids conclusions are harming their kids ability to understand reality, and are thus abusers. Those who teach methods are not. This is a difference in kind. People who teach their kids the conclusion that Santa Claus exists are not inflicting a lifetime full of guilt or fear. Those who teach that Jesus Christ exists are. The latter are far more egregious. This is a difference in degree.

  • 10-10-2007 7:19 AM In reply to

    Re: FDR 747 Ron Paul

    I would say not, since way too many people get stuck in Minarchism - it's a "transition drug" that is cripplingly addictive.

    Please join the new Freedomain Radio Facebook page:

    Freedomain Radio - The Largest Philosophy Conversation in the World | Promote Your Page Too


    All Free! - Audio, PDF. Print starting @ $9.99+
    Freedomain Radio Needs Your Support!


    My status

  • 10-10-2007 6:29 PM In reply to

    Re: FDR 747 Ron Paul

    Just because his stated goal is internally consistent with his message/platform it doesn't mean he's right.

    I agree, and that consistency is what keeps him from actually being a hypocrite.  If he actually believed in anarchism, and that it was the only path to take toward liberty and freedom then he would be a hypocrite.  If his conception of freedom and liberty mirrored the what they are under the anarchist framework, then he would be contradicting himself... but he's not because he's not an anarchist.  Being at odds with a concept you do not acknowledge does not make you a hypocrite.  It would be as if Christians were calling Muslims hypocrites for believing in god.  They're not on the same page about what is god... Jesus and the sunshine gang vs Allah the moon god, similarly anarchists and Ron Paul approach the concepts in different ways.

    He says he's interested in freedom and liberty.  He works for the government.  Freedom?  Liberty?  Not so much.

    Even your conceptions of government differ.  Every word in the sentence you criticized has a different connotation to a libertarian than it does to an anarchist... they seem at once almost similar positions but they are very different.

    if you'd want to take the argument-from-effect approach

    The effect of revolutionary anarchism in America would result in nothing less than a long period of violent gang warfare.  America is too diverse and unintegrated, and lines are drawn between people in every direction because the government schools highlight them all for us and then the entertainments people inhale nightly reinforce them.  The pop cultures and sub cultures are all mindless.  The differences in sexual preference, color, and religion would be enough fuel to reignite a very bloody riotous prolonged war.  The prevailing consciousness in this country actually IS (thanks to Christianity) that people only abstain from killing you and stealing all of your things just because they believe they'll get into trouble for it.  Take Katrina for example, because it is a perfect example.  If you'll recall the property damage and looting from shop owners, people putting their own lives in danger to get away with something they felt they could get away with.  http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9131493/

    Magnify this on a national level keeping in mind that New Orleans isn't even ranked among the top 25 most dangerous U.S. cities.  http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0921299.html

    It's not a matter of "strategy" - it's a matter of honesty.

    Lunacy!  It IS a matter of strategy if you want to attempt to make this transition with as little bloodshed as possible... you can't just jump into it and honestly believe very turbulent times don't lie in the immediate future.  I know it's less personal and much easier for Canadians talking about American politics to say these kinds of things, but are you prepared for a destabilized nuclear power killing itself just south of your border?

    Unless you're bloodlust is absolutely insatiable you would at least attempt to see a very positive thing coming from Ron Paul.  I think it's absolutely barbaric to hold the position that one should vote for Hillary because it will speed the demise of a nation, plunging it into riotous violence and starvation.

    Ron Paul, if you'll listen, is directly blaming the government for screwing everything up just by being involved, including the minarchist/libertarian view that it serves only as protector of individual rights...  Ron Paul is pointing out that we have NONE left or what little we have is diminishing!  It's not even capable of serving it's own intended purpose.

    Think of the positive potentials of a Ron Paul administration and the direction these positives could carry us prosperously and peacefully after 8 years of change.

    Sound Currency to stop the hyperinflation... they're currently playing with the numbers and pretending our economy is growing.

    No IRS or Income Tax.

    No welfare state.

    No Federal Reserve central bank depriving us of our wealth.

    No department of government education telling everyone what not to think.

    These are only a few of the major ones.  These are radical shifts in thinking for American politics and the very fact that people are so responsive to it forces me to cling to the hope that this transition can be made much more softly than a collapse.

  • 10-10-2007 6:33 PM In reply to

    Re: FDR 747 Ron Paul

    Keep clinging.  Let us know how it goes.

  • 10-10-2007 6:42 PM In reply to

    Re: FDR 747 Ron Paul

    You're very quick to make comments which suggest you're only interested in being an asshole.

    What intention do you have in making a comment like that, mocking my positive attitude?
     

  • 10-10-2007 6:50 PM In reply to

    Re: FDR 747 Ron Paul

    Spaghettim0nst3r:
    You're very quick to make comments which suggest you're only interested in being an asshole.

    What intention do you have in making a comment like that, mocking my positive attitude?

    Call me an asshole and then ask me a question?  HAH, no thanks.

    By the way, I wasn't mocking you.  I was just repeating the words you used for what you are doing (i.e. "clinging to hope").

  • 10-10-2007 7:50 PM In reply to

    Re: FDR 747 Ron Paul

    You got told.
  • 10-11-2007 10:29 AM In reply to

    Re: FDR 747 Ron Paul

    So I'm still unconvinced--I'm voting for Ron Paul.  However, I'm very open to the ideas of those opposed, I just haven't reached the point where will forgo voting.  It's purely a cost-benefit analysis thing.  Voting costs me almost nothing (maybe 30 minutes if I early vote), but if Ron Paul were elected, it could potentially cut a lot of taxes, slow the rate of change of government increase for a bit, and make my economic situation a bit better.  As of now, I see no negative outcome of voting.  I don't see how voting is any more hypocritical than taking government money.

     

    The "libertarian death spiral" (FDR 814), or simultaneous unpopularity and fanged defensiveness of libertarian ideals, is the key issue keeping people from supporting the Libertarian Party or libertarian leaning candidates. Unfortunately, this  tends to turn them against the philosophy in general.  We're so very programmed to "vote for what we believe in" that if we eventually turn away from libertarian candidates because we think they can't win, we switch candidates, and therefore slowly corrupt our personal philosophy (here I mean we in a very general sense, as in people who have never been exposed to anarchistic philosophy.)

  • 10-11-2007 10:45 AM In reply to

    Re: FDR 747 Ron Paul

    Spaghettim0nst3r:

    The effect of revolutionary anarchism in America would result in nothing less than a long period of violent gang warfare.  America is too diverse and unintegrated, and lines are drawn between people in every direction because the government schools highlight them all for us and then the entertainments people inhale nightly reinforce them.  The pop cultures and sub cultures are all mindless.  The differences in sexual preference, color, and religion would be enough fuel to reignite a very bloody riotous prolonged war.  The prevailing consciousness in this country actually IS (thanks to Christianity) that people only abstain from killing you and stealing all of your things just because they believe they'll get into trouble for it.  Take Katrina for example, because it is a perfect example.  If you'll recall the property damage and looting from shop owners, people putting their own lives in danger to get away with something they felt they could get away with.  http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9131493/

    Magnify this on a national level keeping in mind that New Orleans isn't even ranked among the top 25 most dangerous U.S. cities.  http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0921299.html



    This bothers me a bit too, but I mean, what Stef is proposing is not revolutionary anarchism per se; I'd say it's more of a fundamental change in philosophy.  Of course, this could be a problem as well, considering the State will do its absolute best to keep kids indoctrinated and in public schools.  Has anyone thought of a solution for this?

    Also, Stef (in 814), you use the metaphor of weightlifting to defend incrementalism and attack Ron Paul. I wonder, then, what is your position on the Libertarian Reform Caucus? (which, in 2004, wiped away 80% of the radical planks in the LP platform)  I mean, as a Canadian, you probably have a different outlook than we Americans might (I have no idea about the libertarian political aspirations in Canada)

  • 10-11-2007 10:52 AM In reply to

    Re: FDR 747 Ron Paul

    I'm sure you already know what my position is on the "Libertarian Reform Caucus"Big Smile

    Please join the new Freedomain Radio Facebook page:

    Freedomain Radio - The Largest Philosophy Conversation in the World | Promote Your Page Too


    All Free! - Audio, PDF. Print starting @ $9.99+
    Freedomain Radio Needs Your Support!


    My status

  • 10-11-2007 11:26 AM In reply to

    Re: FDR 747 Ron Paul

    eliiswyatt:
    Spaghettim0nst3r:

    The effect of revolutionary anarchism in America would result in nothing less than a long period of violent gang warfare.  America is too diverse and unintegrated, and lines are drawn between people in every direction because the government schools highlight them all for us and then the entertainments people inhale nightly reinforce them.  The pop cultures and sub cultures are all mindless.  The differences in sexual preference, color, and religion would be enough fuel to reignite a very bloody riotous prolonged war.  The prevailing consciousness in this country actually IS (thanks to Christianity) that people only abstain from killing you and stealing all of your things just because they believe they'll get into trouble for it.  Take Katrina for example, because it is a perfect example.  If you'll recall the property damage and looting from shop owners, people putting their own lives in danger to get away with something they felt they could get away with.  http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9131493/

    Magnify this on a national level keeping in mind that New Orleans isn't even ranked among the top 25 most dangerous U.S. cities.  http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0921299.html



    This bothers me a bit too, but I mean, what Stef is proposing is not revolutionary anarchism per se; I'd say it's more of a fundamental change in philosophy.  Of course, this could be a problem as well, considering the State will do its absolute best to keep kids indoctrinated and in public schools.  Has anyone thought of a solution for this?

    Also, Stef (in 814), you use the metaphor of weightlifting to defend incrementalism and attack Ron Paul. I wonder, then, what is your position on the Libertarian Reform Caucus? (which, in 2004, wiped away 80% of the radical planks in the LP platform)  I mean, as a Canadian, you probably have a different outlook than we Americans might (I have no idea about the libertarian political aspirations in Canada)

     I think you've missed something if you approach Stef with, "as a canadian"....  
     

    Democracy: The Newest Innovation in Livestock Management Techniques!

    When people kill for a lie, they also murder the truth. - Stefan Molyneux

    百聞は一見にしかず。- Japanese Proverb, "Hearing something 100 times can't beat seeing it once." The only way to spread philosophy.

    People who teach their kids conclusions are harming their kids ability to understand reality, and are thus abusers. Those who teach methods are not. This is a difference in kind. People who teach their kids the conclusion that Santa Claus exists are not inflicting a lifetime full of guilt or fear. Those who teach that Jesus Christ exists are. The latter are far more egregious. This is a difference in degree.

Page 24 of 27 (397 items) « First ... < Previous 22 23 24 25 26 Next > ... Last »
Copyright 2005-2012 By Stefan Molyneux
Powered by Community Server (Non-Commercial Edition), by Telligent Systems