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Latest post Sun, Oct 21 2007 5:04 PM by Dtomboy. 396 replies.
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  • Fri, May 25 2007 9:47 AM In reply to

    • Karl
    • Top 150 Contributor
    • Joined on Wed, May 23 2007
    • Ramapo, NY
    • Posts 397
    • Philosopher King

    Re: FDR 747 Ron Paul

    Just a quick answer to your question, Nathan. Pro-libertarian legislation would be legislation that repealed previous legislation and regulations or otherwise reduced government power. This has happenned such as when whole industries have been deregulated. If gas prices and allocation were still as regulated as in the 1970's, we'd all be waiting in gas lines. Trucking was deregulated. Airlines were deregulated (though only partially, so airports and the FAA still suck, and bankrupt airlines should have been liquidated, not allowed to continue operations at a privileged cost structure). So it is possible to take action in the political system to reduce government depredations, though obviously most legislators have little incentive to do so. Markets often find ways around government, but if there are people like Ron Paul in the government who are willing to aim towards repealing the income tax, eliminating the central bank, reducing government power, or stopping the war machine, I say more power to them, so to speak.

    Maybe the system is doomed to end in catastrophic crisis or bankruptcy. Maybe it would be less destructive to dismantle it piece by piece in an orderly fashion. Maybe that's not possible. I can't fortell the future. The aim should be the reduction of exploitation with ultimate aim of ending it never lost sight of.
  • Fri, May 25 2007 9:51 AM In reply to

    Re: FDR 747 Ron Paul

    One of Rothbard's most famous quotes is:

    "I define anarchist society as one where there is no legal possibility for coercive aggression against the person or property of any individual."

    That's a fantastic quote, for sure.  How is that compatible with the LAP (Less Aggression Principle)?  If we should view libertarian and anarcho-capitalist history as inherently valuable and honorable with no reference to reality, then I'd assume a deviation from a historical definition by the founder of the movement would be hypocrisy or contradiction, right?

  • Fri, May 25 2007 9:51 AM In reply to

    Re: FDR 747 Ron Paul

    One of Rothbard's most famous quotes is:

    "I define anarchist society as one where there is no legal possibility for coercive aggression against the person or property of any individual."

    That's a fantastic quote, for sure.  How is that compatible with the LAP (Less Aggression Principle)?  If we should view libertarian and anarcho-capitalist history as inherently valuable and honorable with no reference to reality, then I'd assume a deviation from a historical definition by the founder of the movement would be hypocrisy or contradiction, right?

    [EDIT: Sorry for the double-post.  I'm unfortunately forced to use IE at the moment and it's "working" as it normally does... not at all.  Ugh.]

  • Fri, May 25 2007 9:55 AM In reply to

    • Nathan
    • Top 10 Contributor
    • Joined on Thu, Mar 23 2006
    • Philadelphia, PA
    • Posts 13,031
    • Philosopher King

    Re: FDR 747 Ron Paul

    A system that is inherently corrupt and immoral/unethical on principle alone cannot be "changed", "improved" or even "dismantled" from within using the system which is - again - itself corrupt.

    It's like an atheist joining the priesthood to change the church within.  It doesn't make any sense.  It's like joining the mafia, working your way to the top, and then trying to revoke all the contracts for hit men and end all the rackets that keep it going.  Yeah that mafia boss will be shot real quick.  Maybe they'll make it look like an accident, maybe they won't.
     

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  • Fri, May 25 2007 9:58 AM In reply to

    Re: FDR 747 Ron Paul

    Nathan McKaskle:
    Even if he did all that, the whiplash of what might occur in the market or over in Iraq would be used as "evidence" that he made all the "wrong" decisions.  In reality that whiplash would just be everything going back to where it should be, a bunch of unemployed government workers, a bunch of those already in the market taking advantage of the situation during the time it takes for new competitors entering the market.  All that whiplash will be used to blame the free market and say that "oh look it doesn't work".
    That's an argument from effect.  Your sentiment also contradicts stefan's prophecy that govt bloat is catastrophically fatal and that this shouldn't be thwarted.
  • Fri, May 25 2007 10:00 AM In reply to

    • Nathan
    • Top 10 Contributor
    • Joined on Thu, Mar 23 2006
    • Philadelphia, PA
    • Posts 13,031
    • Philosopher King

    Re: FDR 747 Ron Paul

    hippy:
    Nathan McKaskle:
    Even if he did all that, the whiplash of what might occur in the market or over in Iraq would be used as "evidence" that he made all the "wrong" decisions.  In reality that whiplash would just be everything going back to where it should be, a bunch of unemployed government workers, a bunch of those already in the market taking advantage of the situation during the time it takes for new competitors entering the market.  All that whiplash will be used to blame the free market and say that "oh look it doesn't work".
    That's an argument from effect.  Your sentiment also contradicts stefan's prophecy that govt bloat is catastrophically fatal and that this shouldn't be thwarted.

    Well yeah it is an argument from effect I suppose, or a prediction of what might happen and what tends to happen (free market gets blamed for gov interference).

    I'm not sure what you mean about the contradiction about government bloat and all that? What are you talking about? 

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  • Fri, May 25 2007 10:02 AM In reply to

    Re: FDR 747 Ron Paul

    You predicted a backlash, and i noted that it only fulfills stefan's prophecy.
  • Fri, May 25 2007 10:13 AM In reply to

    • Nathan
    • Top 10 Contributor
    • Joined on Thu, Mar 23 2006
    • Philadelphia, PA
    • Posts 13,031
    • Philosopher King

    Re: FDR 747 Ron Paul

    hippy:
    You predicted a backlash, and i noted that it only fulfills stefan's prophecy.

    Oh I thought you said contradicts. Still confused... Embarrassed

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  • Fri, May 25 2007 2:26 PM In reply to

    Re: FDR 747 Ron Paul

    Nathan McKaskle:

    David J. Heinrich:
    Firstly, a Federal bill to deal with this kind of thing would probably violate the concept of decentralization, favored in the Constitution, which is wrong.

    Why?

    What is wrong is leaving people who are victims in a cold dank prison to be brutalized and raped or at the very least prevented from being free.

    Really? So it's wrong for us to leave them there, not break them out?

    I would certainly say it's good to help the innocent; that doesn't mean it's necessarily our legal or moral obligation. Ron Paul isn't the reason those people are there, so he certainly has no obligation to get them out.

    As for why Presidential pardons might be bad, because decentralization of State power is good. This has been noted by Hoppe, DiLorenzo, Woods, and others. If there were just one world State, it would be abhorrently brutal, because there would be no competition. People could not vote with their feet, because there is no competing State to move to.

    The more States there are, the smaller they are, the more liberal States need to be in their policies with respect to their citizens, otherwise their citizens will leave less liberal States in favor of more liberal ones. This is simple economics, an understanding of monopoly theory. We are worse off because Europe centralized power, and is no longer a collection of many city-States.

     

    In regards to the related argument by Nathan, not pardoning those convicted of prostitution, drug-use or tax-evasion would not constitute an initiation of aggression; rather, it would constitute not stopping an initiation of aggression. Yet, under the NAP, no-one has the obligation to stop the IOF. In any event, I'm not sure what he would do there, or even what would be wise there. Sure, it'd be a great thing to do, commendable by libertarian standards. But it also might alienate Congress so much that it would make it impossible for him to work with them for any legislation rolling back the State. If he united the Congress and Senate against him enough, his veto might even become worthless.

     

    This is exactly where the crux of the problem is.  He will compromise on principle to appease and gain support, thus leaving countless millions in the prisons I spoke about above.  What about those people in prison, what about how they feel? What about their situation? All because of fucking political maneuvering and compromising?

    This is what happens when we compromise on reasoned, logical, moral principles, people are tortured and people die.

    Wrong. A compromise in principle would be to agree to some initiation of aggression, in order to get some other initiation of aggression eliminated. It is not a compromise in principle to leave one IOF alone, in order to deal more effectively with others. One violates the NAP, the other does not. What about those people in prison? Well, it's not immediately obvious that he should engage in a few very specific actions that will only affect them, instead of focusing on ending the war, and things that will reduce aggression nationally or globally.

    Also note, that I'm not sure that a Presidential pardon is a good thing from a libertarian pov. It is the centralizing of power, over-riding further the decentralized states system of power. Centralization of power ultimately leads to world government, which is the worst possible scenario. This leads to far more IOF. That said, the precedent for the centralization of power in the Presidency is already firmly established

    Whoa, so stopping aggression and violence against millions is less moral than maintaining some illusion that decentralized initiation and continuance of violence is better than centralized initiation and continuance of violence?

    Quite possibly, yes. It depends on how much of a precedent for centralization vs. decentralization is set. Andrew Jackson smashed the Central Bank in his day. This was a good thing from a libertarian perspective. However, it set a precedent for centralized power in the Presidency that has continued until this day, and has been very harmful, causing much IOF.
    The single most important thing he can do as President is end the war; then, he can try to deal with the IRS, the income tax, and the inflation tax after that. 
    Isn't that exercising power that is centralized?

    The difference is that here, he isn't imposing on decentralized governances, but is rather dealing with things that are already defined functions of the Federal government, and that only he, or other Federal powers, can deal with.

    Take a look around Mises.org for stuff on decentralization and States, particularly by Hoppe. There are some media mp3 lectures available.  

    Lectures by Hoppe:

    Economy, Society, and History Lectures Series. http://www.mises.org/media.aspx?action=category&ID=66

     The Economics of Political Centralization. http://www.mises.org/mp3/MU2003/MU03-Hoppe-5.mp3

    All lectures by Hoppe (I would recommend looking through these); many related an interesting topics. 

    I'd also recommend taking a look at stuff by DiLorenzo and Woods in the Media Archive

  • Fri, May 25 2007 2:35 PM In reply to

    Re: FDR 747 Ron Paul

    Nathan,

    Bullshit psychologizing.

    The defenses of Ron Paul haven't just "popped up" for current political purposes. They are well established within the libertarian movement in literature on decentralization and libertarian strategy that Rothbard, Hoppe, Kinsella, Block, DiLorenzo, Woods, and others have written on.

    To say that that comes from some psychological issues from parents is BS.

    Maybe your and Stef's insistence that no positive change can be brought about politically stems from some parental issues. That sounds pretty insulting and patronizing, doesn't it? And how exactly is it relevant to the merit of the issues being discussed?

    How about the flawed methodology I pointed out in response to Stef's "empirical evidence" on Ron Paul?

    No-one here has, nor could they, offered a response to my criticism that you can't do experiments in the social sciences, control for variables. Hence, simply looking at "before and after" empirical evidence, and using that as conclusive, is the post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy. We need  to analyze things using the correct method for this kind of social sciences, praxeology.
     

  • Fri, May 25 2007 2:41 PM In reply to

    Re: FDR 747 Ron Paul

    Charlie:
    One of Rothbard's most famous quotes is:
    "I define anarchist society as one where there is no legal possibility for coercive aggression against the person or property of any individual."
    That's a fantastic quote, for sure.  How is that compatible with the LAP (Less Aggression Principle)?  If we should view libertarian and anarcho-capitalist history as inherently valuable and honorable with no reference to reality, then I'd assume a deviation from a historical definition by the founder of the movement would be hypocrisy or contradiction, right?

    [EDIT: Sorry for the double-post.  I'm unfortunately forced to use IE at the moment and it's "working" as it normally does... not at all.  Ugh.]

    Sure, that's a great quote, and absolutely true. It doesn't speak to how to get there. It speaks to what "there" is. Rothbard wrote on how to get to anarcho-capitalism, and he wasn't at all adverse to using the political process to reduce the IOF. Any step in the right direction is good from the libertarian perspective.

    I don't see why this is so confusing. If someone infiltrates the enemy to sabotage them from within, that's fine. Absolutely nothing wrong with that. There is nothing non-libertarian about stopping the initiation of aggression, such as ending the Iraq war.

    Btw, I never said the history of the movement is intrinsically valid without reference to reality. It is valuable because it's why we're here.

  • Fri, May 25 2007 2:43 PM In reply to

    Re: FDR 747 Ron Paul

    David J. Heinrich:

    Nathan,

    Bullshit psychologizing.

    The defenses of Ron Paul haven't just "popped up" for current political purposes. They are well established within the libertarian movement in literature on decentralization and libertarian strategy that Rothbard, Hoppe, Kinsella, Block, DiLorenzo, Woods, and others have written on.

    To say that that comes from some psychological issues from parents is BS.

    Maybe your and Stef's insistence that no positive change can be brought about politically stems from some parental issues. That sounds pretty insulting and patronizing, doesn't it? And how exactly is it relevant to the merit of the issues being discussed?

    How about the flawed methodology I pointed out in response to Stef's "empirical evidence" on Ron Paul?

    No-one here has, nor could they, offered a response to my criticism that you can't do experiments in the social sciences, control for variables. Hence, simply looking at "before and after" empirical evidence, and using that as conclusive, is the post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy. We need  to analyze things using the correct method for this kind of social sciences, praxeology.
     

    i found it interesting when in another thread Stef posted the dishonest and evasive tactics that Ron Paul supporters according to him used, and his analysis then of the psyche of the Ron Paul supporter. What was interesting is that especially in this thread nearly all those dishonest and evasive tactics have been used by (some, not all) anti Ron Paul people as well (their points about principles may be a different matter, I'm not sure). and so I tend to agree with David's reaction and sympathize with his frustration.

    this is Stef's post from the other thread

    Almost all the debates I have had with RP supporters are fundamentally religious in nature, which involve:

    • blanket assertions of unprovable facts (RP will help reduce government in the future)
    • blanket rejections of referenced facts (RP has not reduced government in the past)
    • ignoring requests for factual information (i.e. how much spending has RP cut in the 20 years he's been in government?)
    • totally ignoring information that opposes the pro-RP assertion
    • when that information is repeated, responding with tangents, hostility, or continuing to ignore it
    • totally ignoring what I think are strong arguments against the pro-RP position (i.e. the KKK metaphor I used lately, which was never responded to)
    • biased use of statistics
    • personal attacks (those who oppose RP are whiners, unrealistic, hostile, negative etc etc etc)
    • and so on

    Clearly, this is far more personal than RP, who nobody I've debated with known personally.

    I believe that there are two main reasons for pro-RP irrationality (I don't mean that all pro-RP sentiments are irrational, just the ones I've debated)

    1. A desire to stay within the bounds of 'mainstream' society, which includes not challenging others who have irrational pro-RP faith. This includes the belief that the existing system can be positively changed from within. It is painful to give up that belief.
    2. A family member - probably a father - is being held on to despite strong evidence of corruption. This family member is probably a good talker - like RP - and also probably portrays himself as the 'good' parent'. This is the more important reason.

    The defenses used in the RP debate are far too sophisticated and well-developed to just have 'popped up' for current political purposes. These are very old and deep defenses.

  • Fri, May 25 2007 3:01 PM In reply to

    Re: FDR 747 Ron Paul

    for some reason, most of the text in my 64745 post displayed as white. You can read it by selecting the entire post.

  • Fri, May 25 2007 3:05 PM In reply to

    Re: FDR 747 Ron Paul

    Responding to Stef's 3 main substantial criticisms of those defending RP,

    • blanket assertions of unprovable facts (RP will help reduce government in the future)
    • blanket rejections of referenced facts (RP has not reduced government in the past)
    • ignoring requests for factual information (i.e. how much spending has RP cut in the 20 years he's been in government?)

    All of these criticisms reflect an underlying flawed methodology -- hence, all of the conclusions are flawed -- which I pointed out in an earlier post. We have to look at what was actually under Ron Paul's control, and what he did with what power he had. His record suggests that if President, he would veto Statist legislation. Saying that he didn't cut spending in his own district is misdirected, because he doesn't have direct control over that. However, we can see that he didn't lobby for any contracts to go to his district; however, Federal bills affect all districts, which would explain the variation in spending in his. We should note that Federal spending in his district would be higher if the typical politicians were their Rep, as he'd be "winning contracts".

    For my criticism of Stef's methodology, see my post # 64277.

    For what I consider to be one of my best responses to the ethical argument against voting -- responding to one of the most clearly laid out arguments against it, by Greg Gauthier -- see my post # 64277.

  • Fri, May 25 2007 3:40 PM In reply to

    Re: FDR 747 Ron Paul

    Here's a great quote from No Treason: The Constitution of No Authority, which dispells a lot of anti-voting mythology, that voting is something which is immoral:

     

    3. It cannot be said that, by voting, a man pledges himself to support the Constitution, unless the act of voting be a perfectly voluntary one on his part. Yet the act of voting cannot properly be called a voluntary one on the part of any very large number of those who do vote. It is rather a measure of necessity imposed upon them by others, than one of their own choice. On this point I repeat what was said in a former number, viz.:

    "In truth, in the case of individuals, their actual voting is not to be taken as proof of consent, even for the time being. On the contrary, it is to be considered that, without his consent having even been asked a man finds himself environed by a government that he cannot resist; a government that forces him to pay money, render service, and forego the exercise of many of his natural rights, under peril of weighty punishments. He sees, too, that other men practice this tyranny over him by the use of the ballot. He sees further, that, if he will but use the ballot himself, he has some chance of relieving himself from this tyranny of others, by subjecting them to his own. In short, he finds himself, without his consent, so situated that, if he use the ballot, he may become a master; if he does not use it, he must become a slave. And he has no other alternative than these two. In self- defence, he attempts the former. His case is analogous to that of a man who has been forced into battle, where he must either kill others, or be killed himself. Because, to save his own life in battle, a man takes the lives of his opponents, it is not to be inferred that the battle is one of his own choosing. Neither in contests with the ballot — which is a mere substitute for a bullet — because, as his only chance of self- preservation, a man uses a ballot, is it to be inferred that the contest is one into which he voluntarily entered; that he voluntarily set up all his own natural rights, as a stake against those of others, to be lost or won by the mere power of numbers. On the contrary, it is to be considered that, in an exigency into which he had been forced by others, and in which no other means of self-defence offered, he, as a matter of necessity, used the only one that was left to him.

    "Doubtless the most miserable of men, under the most oppressive government in the world, if allowed the ballot, would use it, if they could see any chance of thereby meliorating their condition. But it would not, therefore, be a legitimate inference that the government itself, that crushes them, was one which they had voluntarily set up, or even consented to.

    "Therefore, a man's voting under the Constitution of the United States, is not to be taken as evidence that he ever freely assented to the Constitution, even for the time being. Consequently we have no proof that any very large portion, even of the actual voters of the United States, ever really and voluntarily consented to the Constitution, EVEN FOR THE TIME BEING. Nor can we ever have such proof, until every man is left perfectly free to consent, or not, without thereby subjecting himself or his property to be disturbed or injured by others."

    As we can have no legal knowledge as to who votes from choice, and who from the necessity thus forced upon him, we can have no legal knowledge, as to any particular individual, that he voted from choice; or, consequently, that by voting, he consented, or pledged himself, to support the government. Legally speaking, therefore, the act of voting utterly fails to pledge ANY ONE to support the government. It utterly fails to prove that the government rests upon the voluntary support of anybody. On general principles of law and reason, it cannot be said that the government has any voluntary supporters at all, until it can be distinctly shown who its voluntary supporters are.

    4. As taxation is made compulsory on all, whether they vote or not, a large proportion of those who vote, no doubt do so to prevent their own money being used against themselves; when, in fact, they would have gladly abstained from voting, if they could thereby have saved themselves from taxation alone, to say nothing of being saved from all the other usurpations and tyrannies of the government. To take a man's property without his consent, and then to infer his consent because he attempts, by voting, to prevent that property from being used to his injury, is a very insufficient proof of his consent to support the Constitution. It is, in fact, no proof at all. And as we can have no legal knowledge as to who the particular individuals are, if there are any, who are willing to be taxed for the sake of voting, we can have no legal knowledge that any particular individual consents to be taxed for the sake of voting; or, consequently, consents to support the Constitution.

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