Freedomain Radio

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I am interested in hearing some of your thoughts on an ethical dilemma I'm confronted with. Feedback on my situation would be much appreated.

My dad abandoned me when I was an infant. He was 31 and my mom was 29 at the time. They both worked for the government and that's also where they met. Two years ago my boyfriend helped me find him thru the internet. The attempt to reconnect was successful, but perhaps worse than fruitless. He came to meet me twice since I contacted him, and after the seconded visit I decided it was in by best interest to no longer communicate with him.

The only think close to comunication between the two of us, uptill recelntly, was once when I was a kid the police informed my mom, that he had been arrested for pushing his then current girlfriend out of a car. My mom then informed me, I was five at the time. She reaffirmed her young daugter that despite the news of his violence and complete absence, my dad loved me. When I asked how he could love me and raise someone else’s kids while refusing his own kid child support she looked stunned. It was if she had never thought it. Without being able to put it into words I knew that she said this with complete disregard of the concept of love.

In first hand experinces with him certain things he would say really freaked me out. For instance, he apparently moved in with his girlfriend (the one he threw of a car) after their second date! And she had kids!! When I told him that meant she had low self esteem. He didn’t seem to see how I drew that conclusion. Although my recent interactions with him were limited, based on his ability to keep a steady alcohol buzz for the duration of his visits, combined with the fact that he never apologized for his neglect correctly I feel I made an accurate judgment of his character . 

He would often say that he wished he hasn’t done what he did. He wishes he didn’t leave. Why? Because he wishes he had a family now? If he had really changed, if he was really moral person he would be grateful for the way the past happened. He would be glad that I was not raised by a violent drunk. Instead he feels bad, only because he realizes his life is worse off.

I never explained to him why I will not talk to him, and although it would make me feel better he wouldn’t understand if I did. The decision I made to stop communication was done to avoid further hurt by him. Although I won’t deny the fact that he is suffering from my rejection is a subsequent bonus. My mom thinks there are better ways to dealing with the situation. She has said that I’m doing to him is not fair. Her reasoning being because I am the one who contacted him I supposedly owe him more than two visits. I am confident enough in my judgment to know that is not a good idea but maybe there are better ways. Okay, so what are my my alternatives? I won’t continue to have a relationship him just because not doing so hurts him. To sacrifice of my emotional wellbeing to a man that I consider.. immoral would inflicting self harm.

Since I found my dad him and my mom have kept in fairly close contact. He lives pretty far so their communication is, for the most part, limited to a phone call at the end of the day. But, since I live with my mom I get to hear about him all the time. I recognize that the two of them have a relationship that is largely based on the immediate relief they feel from talking about their work related issues. It makes them feel better I guess. But it is upseting.

My mom has often tryed to get me to talk to him. I think she does this because she is trying to make him feel better, trying to do him some kind of favor. I have explained to her why no communication is going to happen. But she tends to tune me out and remind me of the “virtue” of forgiveness. I have told her that contact with him would be detrimental to my sanity. If she continues to push the issue, it will get harder to ignore the fact that she is putting his preferences and wellbeing over mine.

The problem is this:

·         It may seem trivial but he sent me a birthday present and I don’t know if I shouldn’t send it back.

o   It would cost money to return the package. But does that make it a sacrifice? When I received the package I was completely sure returning it was the right thing to do. But because sending it back would cost money and seemingly serve no other purpose but to hurt him I am not so sure anymore. However, the alterative of accepting it would make him feel good and I don’t want to do that ether.

I watched a podcast that Sefen did where he made, what I considered to be a good case, for taking government money/services.

1.       Taxation is theft.

2.       Theft is violation of property rights.

3.       Receiving what has been stolen from you is just

4.       The government violates individual property rights in the form of taxation.

∴     Receiving what the government returns to the individual is just.

Would I be right in applying the same kind of reasoning to my personal situation?

1.       Child abandonment robs the child of potential and leads to an increased probability of criminal activity, drug use, and teen pregnancy.

2.       …

If anyone else could take a stab at that rationalization it would be really helpful.

Thanks, KidBlondie

I'm so sorry to hear about this, what a terribly sad story - I'm curious, do you know what you might have been looking for specifically when you contacted him, after he has not contacted you for so many decades?

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When I was a kid I used to want to meet him so I could kick him in the balls. At least that would have saved any other kids for having to deal with him. Although different things came to mind s I got older. I have always wanted to call someone dad. I had a pretty awesome step dad that passed away when I was ten, and I regret never calling him that. I regret not verbally communicating how much I loved him. I used to watch The Parent Trap a lot and it seemed like Lindsay really enjoyed just using the word when meeting her dad. So I tried it. I called him dad every chance I got when our commutation was limited to the phone. But in person it just felt occward, forced even. Like I was forcing myself to feel all these emotions I didn’t have. I didn’t love him and I have a hard time thinking of him as any kind of dad. Other than that I wanted to know if I had any siblings, meet my grandparents the whole shebang. Still knowing that he was 30 when he paid is way out of parenthood, had tried to convince my mom into abortion, and had spend some time in jail for having beat his more resent girlfriend I didn’t really expect for him to be such a nice guy. My expectations were low, but I was never the less curious.

KidBlondie:

·         It may seem trivial but he sent me a birthday present and I don’t know if I shouldn’t send it back.

o   It would cost money to return the package. But does that make it a sacrifice? When I received the package I was completely sure returning it was the right thing to do. But because sending it back would cost money and seemingly serve no other purpose but to hurt him I am not so sure anymore. However, the alterative of accepting it would make him feel good and I don’t want to do that ether.

You are not morally obligated to do anything. You can send it back with a letter that you do not wish to have contact. You can keep it, but I would think he will send you more and keep contact. I dont know if thats what you want. To me it sounds he's trying to pay restitution without fixing his personal and emotional issues. You can also accept the present and give it to a friend. Then you don't have to send it back, but you don't have the guilt feelings whenever you see the present if you keep it.

KidBlondie:

The problem is this:

·         It may seem trivial but he sent me a birthday present and I don’t know if I shouldn’t send it back.

KidBlondie:

The problem is this:

·         It may seem trivial but he sent me a birthday present and I don’t know if I shouldn’t send it back.

According to this website which has great advice on going "No Contact" the gift should be thrown away unopened or passed on to someone, unless you think you might need it for evidence, in which case it should be stored out of sight.(Read the whole article)

You have my sympathies, I had one of those kind of fathers, and a step dad who was a big improvement. My mom was originally married to biodad and had  2 & 1/2 kids before he was gone.

I wish I knew what makes women think children should spend time with their biodads when they know they are ratbastards. I think my mom was getting flack from my paternal gma to encourage us, cause my mom didn't want anything to do with him, and finally stopped suggesting it.

I didn't catch if you said how old you are, but definitely if you are an adult or teen, tell you mother in no uncertain terms that you will not see him again, or hear any news of him, and for her to relay that message to him since she has no problem communicating with him. I really recommend that you read all the "no Contact" articles on the website. I hope you have no further problems form your mom either, but you seem to be more logical and self aware than she.

 If you don't want to take anything from this guy simply donate it to someone else.  However I think you're entirely entitled to anything valuable this guy gives you.  He is not entitled to anything.  He values a relationship with you less than the benefit of being drunk while meeting you.  Even if you were somehow obligated to him (and I can't see how you would be) clearly he doesn't really want a relationship with you.  He wants a relationship with your mother (of what kind I don't know) and pretending to want to talk to you is a way to get that. 

My take on forgiveness is best illustrated by the scene in Atlas Shrugged where Hank Reardon leaves his family.  When they ask him if he has no capacity to forgive he tells them he would have forgiven everything if they had told him to run.  Forgiveness starts when someone makes it clear they have stopped doing the thing that needs forgiving.  If you robbed my bank and you want me to forgive you in the supermarket, those pantyhose better be for your legs.  Your dad continues the sort of behaviour that needed forgiveness in the first place.  To pretend otherwise is simply faking reality, which never really makes anyone happier in the long run. 

My heart goes out to the child that had to rationalize her father's abscence and destructive behaviors.  I'm so sorry.  With regards to your personal feelings about breaking contact, I can only believe that you are completely correct in doing so.  You knew this answer as a child, before your rationale was adulterated by the guilt of your mother:

KidBlondie:

  When I asked how he could love me and raise someone else’s kids while refusing his own kid child support she looked stunned. It was if she had never thought it. Without being able to put it into words I knew that she said this with complete disregard of the concept of love. 

Your mother is inflicting the concept of forgiveness upon you as a universal, or at least paternally universal moral.  That is to say that she places the importance of your forgiveness over the importance of your father's violence.  In other words, she cares more for his peace of mind than your safety.  It may not be that she is concious of this, or would agree with that statement if she were concious of it, but this is the empirical reality of her behavior.

As for the present, I think you're accurate to think it a trivial situation, considering how little the effects of your actions with this gift compare to the past actions of your father.  That said, I see this situation as symbolic to your overall plight, and through that metaphor it has a very real importance to you.

You seem healthily aware that you have no tangible obligations for the pitiance that he sent you, yet you are never the less concerned with the implications of those actions as they are received by your father.  To me, by simply worrying about his reactions, you continue to chain yourself to the emotional well-being of a father who has never displayed any evidence of reciprocating.  This does not sound like the freedom that your beautiful mind craves.

@ Stefan

There is one thing that clicked with me when I saw your last response. I was surprised to realize how much I really appreciated the empathy. It’s refreshing, so thank you for that. For someone to understand that the situation is shitty is all I really wanted. And it’s not something I ever get at home with my mom or my boyfriend. So.. *high five*

That being said, I have since broke up with my boyfriend of two years. And I’m going to move out of my mom’s house as soon as possible. I’m 21 now and have been interested in philosophy for around five years. It’s strange how it was relatively easy to realize how oppressive governments and society are. Yet, thinking about the oppression of my family required significantly more effort. Because family involved actual people in my life, and it meant I was going to have to change some things.

I was taught to love without any perquisite, and as a kid I knew how destructive that mentality is. One day in elementary school the class and I were wasting time as usual, and a teacher was trying to convince me to make a father’s day card. I explained to him the situation, I told him that I had no love for my dad, thus he did not deserve a card. The man looked genuinely confused. He presented the alterative of making a card for an uncle, grandpa, or even my mom with the goal of having me complete the task. And I told him I didn’t love any of them too much either. It was my earliest memory of a public debate. I had to defend the position that love is not the default position for anyone in my life. Not even family. It’s frustrating to think about how much growing up has corrupted the truth I once knew in my youth.


@ Waster and Livemike

You’re completely right. The “issue” of the package was not much an ethical issue at all. It was symbolic. And I am giving him too much power over my live when I turned it into a symbol. After reading your posts I was pretty much set on giving the stuff away. But, I guess it took me too long because my mom eventually took the money that was in there and once the box was open it was easy to just give the rest away.


@shadowsmith

Thanks for the response! You are so right! My mom sucks. And it’s likely she wasn’t conscious of the fact that she “places the importance of your forgiveness over the importance of your father's violence”. So I brought it to her attention. I was calm and collected trying to not let her slip into the defensive, but it was inevitable. She believes so strongly in forgiveness that she’s allowing him to corrupt her own life. Only to blame it on me when he freaks out at her every couple months, because I was the one that “brought him back into her life” and she’s not strong enough to push him away. She actually had the balls to say, “Well maybe I just don’t understand because I was never abandoned as a child. Its sounds to me like you’re making this a bigger deal then it has to be.”  WHAT?! She refuses to relate, much less apologize for not being so skilled in mate selection. All I can do is make sure I don’t make that same mistake.

In her mind it all worked out okay because he was not there to raise me. And that was the best possible situation. Wrong. The best situation would have been for him to not be a violent douche and to have raised me. Why don’t people understand that parenthood is important?!

Anyways, thank you again for helping me realize that freedom is not caring.


@ blondie

Thanks for the sympathies and the link to that article. It sucks you had to undergo a similar situation. My major disagreement with its contents is that taking about my dad to mutual friends should be completely off limits. I know I can handle talking about him to third parties. For me being able to be open about an issue that was traumatizing is evidence for progression.

Up until a few days ago I was just assuming that he knew everything I was thinking and all the perfectly logical reasons why I don’t want to talk to him. But, of course that’s absurd and in my anger I replied to a text message, “die in a fire”, “and stop texting me”.  I would have liked to sit down and write him a letter explaining why I have made the decision of no contact. But, as time passes I’m starting to care less and less if he understood why. I have got all the closure I need, why expend more energy?

Mothers are compelled to put their kids at risk with their fathers because they view the child as a slave, a piece of property that they have equal ownership over. The kid is treated as if it were a camping tent they split the cost on while they were still together. Now whenever one of them wants to go camping they just ask for it back. Mothers believe fathers have an equal right to their child. And the reverse is true as well.
 
My mom felt obligated to share me with my dad because she thinks as the two of them as equals. Which is true; they are both equality nothing. A lot of parents, mothers especially, have kids because they feel they are not worthy of being loved for better reasons. So they settle for the “unconditional love” of a child. In their ignorance they believe “unconditional love” is actually something worth perusing.

When I was 6, in boarding school, we used to have to write letters every week to our parents. I used to write mine: "Dear [first name]"

I got in endless trouble for that - I was supposed to call him 'dad' - but to me, that was something you did, and he didn't do it, but I was supposed to cover that up.

It's always a great shock as a kid when you realize how fragile those in authority really are...

What is a 6 year old doing in boarding school? That’s terrible.

I was in boarding school a 15 and I saw how disfuctional the younger kids became. A few went mute.

In the movie the Sixth Sense the main chacter is around 7 and also calls his mom by her first name. It really added to the creepy factor. Made me uncomfortable and now I'm uncomfortable with the fact that this is making me uncomfortable.

I have only ever seen people call their parents by their first names as a means of demoting them from their role as parent. I have never seen anyone actively raise their kid to call them by their first name. Though, it would be interesting to see of the effects of being raised without that cultural norm.

Hello to you blondie

Firstly wow thank you for sharing this, my heart goes out to you and what you had and are experiencing as no one shoud be have their emotions played like that.

Secondly i do not think i can give any advice as i don't think i can provide any useful stuff, unlike the rest of the people on here. I simply wish you all the best with what you decide and that i just hope you consider yourself first and fore most.

Kind reagards Dan

 Hi Daniel!

I think you are addressing your post to KidBlondie and not me, blondie. right? (No relation that I know of).

I also sympathize with KidBlondie and hope to hear how things are going. It can be disheartening when you realize that you are perceived as a possession, rather than a person.

0_o its seems the blondies are muitiplying, Indeed blondie, i was addressing my post to KidBlondie.

when i read a post like this, it drives me nuts at how adults/parents can be so blind to what they spit in the face of. Life is beauitful, the beings that we are are powerful and mighty to be able to do such wonders.

I am always made sad at how we are all treated like a peace of shit to be disposed of. Knowing that we truely are "gods" given the chance to exist, to know, to understand and be something magnificent volitonal enities. sorry for ramble, but this bugs the hell of me.