Freedomain Radio

Greetings everyone.

I'll apologize in advance for this being somewhat long, but I have to tell a little back story before I get to the crux of the problem if I am to hope anyone can offer advice.

Like far too many kids, my sister and I are from a "broken" home. Our parents divorced when I was 8, and my sister was just shy of 6. After the divorce, we rarely saw or heard from our father. No, our mother didn't prevent or discourage us interacting with him, he just never made much of an effort. During the later teenage years, my sister started displaying some self-destructive behavior, and I couldn't understand it then. She is smart and caring, and I chalked up her seeming emotional instability to a rather ignorant view I had of young women in general (at that time... I was only about 17 myself, so please don't think I am or was some kind of mysoginist. I was just a stupid kid).

As she grew into adulthood, my sister delved into drugs, alcohol and made really bad choices with men. She was quite promiscuous, and struggled to understand why she couldn't find what she wanted or needed in a man. At age 19, she settled into a long-term relationship that was mentally and physically destructive to both of them. They hit each other. They yelled and swore at each other. They used lots of drugs together. They had some daring sexual exploits together... There was mutual infidelity.They were together for 9 years before she cut it off.  This is when she started talking to me about how she believed her choices were made, in part, to her sense of abandonment by our father. She went to some counseling, but, as I took it anyway, she seemed unable or unwilling to try and employ the methods suggested by her therapists to deal with this and come to terms so she could start rebuilding her life. But about 2 years after she ended the terrible relationship, she got knocked up by this guy who promptly bowed out upon learning my sister was pregnant.

My niece is now 2 years old. I live a great distance from my family, so I cannot be there to see her, interact with her, or observe my sister with her on a routine basis. My sis and I talk often, and she almost always goes into desperation talking about meeting a 'good' man who will love her and her daughter so that my niece doesn't grow up without a Dad. She has expressed a terrible sense of guilt of having 'done this' to my niece because she fears she has doomed her to suffer the same sense of abandonment she has felt her whole life. Between us (and I love my sister more than I could express, but have a near-religious commitment to honesty), I am much more worried about how my sister can raise her daughter to avoid making the same types of mistakes with men that she made, even if Prince Charming doesn't swoop in to wisk them off to his castle on the sea for a life of happily ever after. 

I'm a reasonably smart and decently well-read guy, but am not qualified to provide my sister credible tips on how to achieve this. As parenting is such a hot topic here, and the insights I've read thus far are so edifying, I thought I would reach out and see if anyone had any advice. Thank you very much for reading, and I hope to hear from you!

 Hey Chris,

I was in a situation very similiar to your sister's. I started to write some details, but it read like a NA comfession, so Im going to take a different route.

I met this man when i was 15 and he was 22. this destructive, abusive, drug-laced relationship felt nearly impossible to get out of. I still havent figured that one out yet, and its painful, enraging and confusing to think about. . I finally escaped the black-hole that was S. when my daughter was almost 1 and moved back in w my parents. i was 20.

At this point, im 27 and married (to a different, great man) and have 2 more daughters. I wouldnt classify it as prince charming riding in tothe rescue, for me, because I had to do some painful examination of my life to get to this point.

But just to say, even though it should be done the other way around, my love for my daughter was what lead me to change myself. Perhaps your sister will take the same road. Maybe it sounds cliched, but the ONLY true gift i can give to my daughters is facing the inner demons passed down thru the generations (have you read the origins of war on child abuse? its horrific, and we are still getting over the millenia of trauma, in my opinion)

ok, my girls need attention now. But, before i go- has your sister listened to FDR, or will she? I know it sounds all kinds of  religious testimonial, but truly, truly, FDR gave me the TOOLS that i was lacking to understand what happened, and to finally change. Nothing else in my experience has worked so well- church, NA, etc...

your love for your sister is admirable (i cant think of a better word right now- baby is dismanteling my nighttable) if you have any questions that you feel may be helpful, feel free to messgae me!

-Antonia

 Hi Hawaii,

I'm very sorry to hear about both you and your sister's upbringing. In particular, to hear about your sisters subsequent life there after, pretty brutal.

I was curious though, since your sister has recently (I assumed) been displaying desperation at meeting a 'good man'. I was wondering, had you asked her to define what a 'good man' consisted of? Ideally she needs to work that out, before she meets another man. My sense from what you have written (could be wrong ofc), that he would just be a guy that would stick around, show her affection and be nice to the kids. I'm wondering if she has also considered what value she has for any potential partner too. It's all very well fantasising about meeting the perfect guy or woman, but to entirely neglect what value we ourselves bring to the table means the fantasy often remains a fantasy. Since a person of value is unlikely to hook up with someone that has little value in themselves.

I think she was very close when she described her father abandoning her as being the crux to her problem. Many adult children that were abandoned by a parent or parents gravitate towards self medicating (drugs & alcohol) and promiscuous relationships in later life. So given she knows this in part already, then the best course of action for her is to go back to therapy. This will be the only way she is ever likely to meet a 'good man' in her life. Otherwise she will I imagine, either choose co-dependent men, or men with low self esteem. Neither of which will make her happy.

I'm afraid my answer is a bitter pill for her probably. Since going to therapy and really trying to take a hold of ones life is incredibly hard. But for her own personal happiness and that of  her children, it's the most worthwhile course of action she can take.

Thank you very much for sharing, and for caring enough to. I sincerely hope that having another person to look out for does motivate her to seriously examine things about herself as she parents, and that these reflections guide her to making choices/efforts designed to guide my niece down a different path. I'm very glad to learn that this happened for you with your own daughter!

To an extent, I am sure this will also happen for my sister. She is smart, and very aware of this difficulty in her life, and is at least fundamentally aware of how it shapes her perceptions and actions. In about 30 days, I am moving much closer to her (a 4 hour drive instead of a 9 hour flight), and intend to be much more involved and engaged with her and my niece. My wife is confident that we will be able to help create a healthier path for both of them through assistance, affirmation, and more readily available counsel.

Thank you again!

You make excellent points.

I went through a divorce myself 4 years ago, and despite the trauma of the event, it forced me to get to know me again, and understand exactly what it is that I "bring to the table."  This had a profound impact on the choices I made when dating. Fortunately for me, I found a fantastic lady who accepts me for who and what I truly am, and will accept nothing less. =)

I have had this conversation with my sister; you know the sayings..."If you don't love yourself, it will be difficult to find anyone else who will." When she starts lamenting her lack of a good partner, I try and gently steer her toward focusing on herself. I've offered advice like this: take 6 months and stop trying to date or find someone. During this 6 months, reconnect with you: what are you passionate about? What drives you? How can you become the person you want to be? If there is anything you want to change or improve about yourself, how can you make these things happen? Of course I always try to create a little desire within her to do these things by painting these efforts as a way to make herself much more attractive to the dating pool. 

I also encourage her to continue therapy. She has, in some degree, but is doing so through a church. I am the only atheist in my family. Oddly enough, so is the father who was absent from both of our childhoods.

Thank you very much for your input and caring! I genuinely appreciate it.

Chris:

She was quite promiscuous, and struggled to understand why she couldn't find what she wanted or needed in a man.

This is a bit like someone with diabetes struggling to understand why she can't find what she wants or needs in the vast dessert selection at the supermarket. It has nothing to do with the qualities of the desserts. It has everything to do with the horrible internal problems she has.

Chris:

My sis and I talk often, and she almost always goes into desperation talking about meeting a 'good' man who will love her and her daughter so that my niece doesn't grow up without a Dad. She has expressed a terrible sense of guilt of having 'done this' to my niece because she fears she has doomed her to suffer the same sense of abandonment she has felt her whole life.

Your sister's life is run by finding the next drug to ease the pain of abandonment. She will take a man until he no longer eases the pain of abandonment and she finds a new man who does. And the cycle will repeat. She will use her daughter as an excuse to continue this. She will use guilt to drive herself to continue this. She'll confuse you endlessly by talking about how her daughter needs a father.

Her daughter doesn't even have a mother! Bloodletting to cure AIDS is not doctoring and changing from man to man and worrying about your daughter's future love life (will she be able to find good drugs as an adult?) is not mothering. Finding out the cause and cure for the disease, curing yourself as much as that's possible, and then helping your daughter with it is mothering.

She won't have a mother until your sister faces the pain of past abandonment that comes when she stops going for quick sources of affection. If she's fundamentally unwilling to, there's nothing you can do.

This isn't about the men. It isn't about her daughter and future men. Forget about the men. Look at the pain.

 

She won't have a mother until your sister faces the pain of past abandonment that comes when she stops going for quick sources of affection. If she's fundamentally unwilling to, there's nothing you can do.

 

yes. thats very true. And, im sure you know this..but I would use caution to not be pulled into your sister's trauma (theres probably a better way of putting that). Its great that you and your wife will be close-by, but (at least for myself) people i had histories with- mom, dad, my brother, it was very easy to repeat historical patterns and to kinda draw them into my vortex at times. My family who drew clear boundaries with me helped me the most, and i would encourage you to do the same.

 ULTIMATLEY helped me the most, I should say. There were times I got angry, felt unloved, patronized, disprespected and sort-of put up a fight at times...but theres some quote that says something like "you cant help someone out of a hole by climbing in with them"

 

I agree with what you've said here, and thought I did a better job articulating that I felt similarly to how you do. It is absolutely not about the men. It is about her turning and facing this, and then defeating it so that she can make better decisions in her own life, thereby providing my niece a much better example of valuing yourself, loving yourself and doing both enough to (hopefully) reduce the chances her daughter will follow the same destructive path she has followed.

My goal is to somehow be a conduit to bring my sister to this realization, then support her as she goes through the painful process ahead. I hope to provide guidance and support... and an example myself to my sister regarding how to parent. We came up in the same household and have the same genetic material, but I chose to create a different way for myself. It isn't perfect, but I think I'm on the right path to hopefully help my sons become better men than I am. Hopefully she can do the same for my niece.

Thank you for your input!

Oh yes. I identify with this 110%. Instead of becoming a leaning post that is expected to provide all the answers and make everything better, I intend to stand by the side and coach her through standing up on her own through encouragement, guidance and love. I have my own nuclear family to worry about, and hopefully she will benefit by observing us in action!

Chris:

Oh yes. I identify with this 110%. Instead of becoming a leaning post that is expected to provide all the answers and make everything better, I intend to stand by the side and coach her through standing up on her own through encouragement, guidance and love. I have my own nuclear family to worry about, and hopefully she will benefit by observing us in action!

This is exactly the right course and if you stick with it, you will see it flourish as a solution. But it must be PRACTICED.

4 hours away is still a long way. Get a cheap used laptop and a webcam. Schedule chats between both parents and children. Do virtual as well as real play dates. Have online conversations through chat, Facebook, FDR -- whatever mechanism you can to ensure constant reinforcement for BOTH of you.

The most powerful reinforcement for any practice is to teach it. I have learned that the best path to being a better father to my kids is to help and encourage others to be better parents. It is the constant reminder of how to keep your focus and how rewarding the incredible investment can truly be.

Your niece may not have a father, but that doesn't mean she can't have a truly loving uncle. And if you can be an emotional beacon for your niece, perhaps your sister won't feel quite so much urgency in finding a father.

Nathan, thank you for that encouragement, and for your input on how to bring these changes about. I'll have to convince my sister to catch up with the video chat world and get a decent computer and webcam for doing so. I hadn't thought about using consistent web chats as a tool like you mentioned. Thank you.

Though I have literally only spent about 2 days in my niece's presence thus far (I live in Hawaii, and they live in Georgia), I obviously do love her very much and want the very best for her that our family is able to provide for her. As I see it, we owe her nothing less. None of this is her fault, after all, and I know that deep down my sister feels the same way. As another posted, it was the intense love for her daughter that provided the impetus for much needed change. I believe that foundation is present in my sister, and I believe, as you kindly noted, that I am on the right track to be a great help to my sister and niece in creating a much brighter future for them both.

Thank you very much again for your kind words, encouragement and ideas!

I would like to warn you before you start acting as your sister's psychiatrist, which youve already said not to be qualified for. The easiest way to avoid your own traumas is too help other people through theirs...  Don't make your sister act as a proxy for own hurt inner child. Get her to see a good psychiatrist (it can be hard finding one) and also continue focusing on your own traumatized self. Just because she suffered worse effects doesn't mean you should overlook the effect your childhood traumas had on you.

Peace and love to you, your sister and your niece

C.Elders:

I would like to warn you before you start acting as your sister's psychiatrist, which youve already said not to be qualified for. The easiest way to avoid your own traumas is too help other people through theirs...  Don't make your sister act as a proxy for own hurt inner child. Get her to see a good psychiatrist (it can be hard finding one) and also continue focusing on your own traumatized self. Just because she suffered worse effects doesn't mean you should overlook the effect your childhood traumas had on you.

Peace and love to you, your sister and your niece

May I suggest getting her to see a good PSYCHOLOGIST? Or simply a therapist? A psychiatrist is going to immediately offer her drugs instead of trying to address her problems.