Freedomain Radio

Testudines:

Whatever side of the quackery / authorized medicine debate you're on, you should watch the whole hour and a half of the following. It's from the aptly-named "Red Pill TV" site.

http://codehazard.com/media/Cancer%20The%20Forbidden%20Cures

Thanks for posting that, very informative.

I've met Charlotte Gerson in person, she sparkles with life and is very inspring. 

Nathan:

David L:

Nathan:

Hrm, skeptical Nate is skeptical.

http://www.quackwatch.com/04ConsumerEducation/null.html

Isn't the internet fun...:-)

http://quackpotwatch.org/quackpots/quackpots/barrett.htm

Pfft, medical advancement? Seriously? I'm sure you can find similar pages dedicated to Penn Jillett, James Randi and other skeptics that like to call people out on their bullshit.  Stef has one or two pages like that out there as well. Stef quit his job as a software CTO to work full time on debunking bullshit. Does that mean he "failed in the software industry"?

Pseudoscience sells. Being the son of a total quack who fed me all kinds of pills and "cure alls" growing up, it's been my mission in life to set things straight. A lot of good it has done, it's like putting out wildfire.

Yeah but Stef hasn't had a judge (let alone 3) say that his work is "Biased, and unworthy of credibility.".  Stef also didn't leave the software field because he couldn't cover expenses, as I understand it he made a good living slinging and later selling code.  Nor did he leave the field because he couldn't get officially qualified (although that's not really a thing in software IIRC).  This isn't to say that some of the things he debunks aren't rubbish, but clearly you need another source before you conclude they are. The first hint was when he said of Gary Null 'He calls fluoridation "deadly" '.  The thing is so does the FDA, which lists flouride as a carcinogen.   That's not to say that the Mr. Null is right about everything, immunisation works and is comparatively low risk for instance but you can't take Barrett as a source.

Livemike:

  That's not to say that the Mr. Null is right about everything, immunisation works and is comparatively low risk for instance but you can't take Barrett as a source.

Barrett is a sophist and denialist of the first order.

Immunisation is a misleading and euphemistic term, injected cocktails of antigens and toxins (i.e. vaccines) aren't the same as naturally aquired immunity.  Whether a particular vaccine really works is another issue, and I don't think the data vaccine developers present are very compelling.*

Claims that vaccines are safe are contrary to the information which Gary Null clearly presents, and which you have failed to refute. Claims that vaccines are "low risk" are not supported by anything like compelling arguments based on extensive empirical data, something which I believe Null also makes clear.

As a general principle in evolutionary theory, organisms are maladapted to new environmental conditions - and that includes novel foods and other novel chemical inputs.

*http://www.garynull.com/home/the-myth-that-vaccination-equals-immunization.html

SimonF:

Livemike:

  That's not to say that the Mr. Null is right about everything, immunisation works and is comparatively low risk for instance but you can't take Barrett as a source.

Barrett is a sophist and denialist of the first order.

Immunisation is a misleading and euphemistic term, injected cocktails of antigens and toxins (i.e. vaccines) aren't the same as naturally aquired immunity.  Whether a particular vaccine really works is another issue, and I don't think the data vaccine developers present are very compelling.*

Claims that vaccines are safe are contrary to the information which Gary Null clearly presents, and which you have failed to refute. Claims that vaccines are "low risk" are not supported by anything like compelling arguments based on extensive empirical data, something which I believe Null also makes clear.

As a general principle in evolutionary theory, organisms are maladapted to new environmental conditions - and that includes novel foods and other novel chemical inputs.

*http://www.garynull.com/home/the-myth-that-vaccination-equals-immunization.html

Ok I followed that link and have come to the  conclusion that Gary Null is dishonest.  First of all he constructs a strawman, that vaccines will be completely safe forever, and then burns it.  Except that if anyone thought that vaccines made you immune forever the term "booster shot" would never have been invented.  The study Null tries to use to indicate vaccines aren't effective actually says "that younger kids who got the fifth dose less than three years before being tested were much less likely to get whooping cough than slightly older kids who were more than three years past their last vaccination.".  So clearly vaccines were effective for some time.  In fact the figure provided was 90% effective in the short term (which seems to mean 3 years), bear in mind that this is the study Null claims discredits the vaccine.  The day Null develops anything that He tries to use the statement "More than 80 percent of the children who developed whooping cough in Witt’s study were fully vaccinated." to indicate that vaccines don't protect, but nowhere is there a reference to what proportion of the population is not vaccinated.  I found one reference to personal belief exemptions " Some 7 percent of kindergartners in the county had a “personal belief exemption” in 2009.".  If this is representative (and I'm not saying it ist) then unvaccinated children seem to be about three times as likely to develop the disease than vaccinated ones.  So even taking the information null gave and the only figure saw on vaccination rates he seems to be wrong and wrong in a way no decent scientist would be. 
  Then he goes on to talk about how 17.5% of measles victims in one outbreak had been vaccinated.  This is only significant if the vaccination rates are lower than 17.5% or at least close to it.  I believe vaccination rates are above 70% which would mean in that outbreak vaccinated people were 11 times less likely to get measles than unvaccinated people.  Yet he uses this as evidence for vaccines being ineffective.  Of course it's possible I'm wrong about the level of MMR vaccination, because Null doesn't provide the information neccesary to figure out if his implications follow from the information he does give.  That's because charlatans never do.  .  

While Gary Null is a classic "New Age" nutcase, I think it's kind of unfair to label all Eastern and Holisitic medical practices as phony. Natural medicines have saved lives for thousands of years, whereas "modern medicine" has only become truly effective in the last hundred years. Even then, it fails at treating a number of illnesses that Eastern medicine handles quite well. Unfortunately, science has so dominated our culture that it has hindered our ability to consider outside or "unsual" possibilities. Hell, accupuncture is still considered fake by many since science has trouble explaining it, but I've had some pretty amazing experiences with it myself - and no, no placebo effect.

Being old, I've had lots of experiences with both traditional and alternative medical treatments, and what Hesterry says is great. It is serious - your health and your life are bets placed on the roulette wheel board - and complicated, and no easy opinion can be reached. 

I used to go to an old doctor who I trusted to cut me open, who prescribed pills for inflammation that caused blood to come out my behind. I told him. His response was, maybe you'd better stop taking those. Yeah.

I read an alternative medicine book when some friends' son got cancer of the knee, because they needed some help getting through all the alternative literature that an alternative doctor gave them, and it was Hulda Clark, someone not mentioned at all in the video I posted here, but who has also been run out of the country by the law for helping people outside of the authoritative system.

I thought I'd try one of the many, many original and un-heard-of procedures in her book, a very simple one about substituting borax water for shampoo and citric acid water for conditioner. Years later, I'm still using them, and my wife as well. Lots of $ saved, and the hair has done well with it.

The son lost his leg when it was decided to go with the medical, hospital cure. They are very proficient at surgical processes, as you say.

The minds are closed. Another friend, who has a very open (too open?) mind about such things as UFOs, bought some borax to try the shampoo thing, and then brought the box over unopened a month later. She thought we might as well use it, because she couldn't bring herself to try it after all. OK, and this is a reaction based upon the personal testimony of close friends from years of experience. Fear rules, even in the godamn shampoo area. 

The worst thing I've had to witness, but this was a friend I used to see every day, was when he got leukemia - which killed him - and he had to try to weigh his life/death options between alternative and no-alternative medicines. Each camp told him he'd be dead if he didn't rely exclusively on only their protocols. He went with the MD doctors. It was a gamble, and he might be dead if he'd gone the other way, too, of course. But that was in fact his story.

It was one more frustrating reminder that we humans float in a vast and none-too-friendly sea of ignorance and contention. But there are gleams of light in that darkness, I'd also have to say. Eyes open to look for them, guys.

Testudines:

Fear rules, even in the godamn shampoo area. 

Haha, that statement is scarily true.

Thank you for sharing your story, and I'm sorry to hear about your friend. It is a sad truth that no matter how far medicine progresses, people still die from illness. Unfortunately, as you said, ignorance is everywhere. Most people seem to believe that since they can go to a doctor for an infection, get a bottle of anti-biotics, and get better three days later, that medicine is great - that it is flawless. That bit of ignorance scares me more than most of the other ignorances in the world. Unless someone has experienced "real" illness - not just colds and what-not - they have a hard time understanding what it means to be really sick, and in this case, what the risks and benefits are of the different types of medicine.

Hesterry:

Testudines:

Fear rules, even in the godamn shampoo area. 

Haha, that statement is scarily true.

Thank you for sharing your story, and I'm sorry to hear about your friend. It is a sad truth that no matter how far medicine progresses, people still die from illness. Unfortunately, as you said, ignorance is everywhere. Most people seem to believe that since they can go to a doctor for an infection, get a bottle of anti-biotics, and get better three days later, that medicine is great - that it is flawless. That bit of ignorance scares me more than most of the other ignorances in the world. Unless someone has experienced "real" illness - not just colds and what-not - they have a hard time understanding what it means to be really sick, and in this case, what the risks and benefits are of the different types of medicine.

I think it's part of a process most thinking people undergo, that of first acquiring some faith in something like medical doctors, then having to confront evidence that your total faith is unjustified, then ending up with losing the "good feelings" of faith and having them replaced by some feeling of self reliance, and some kind of wariness or alertness that is less complacent but more open-minded.

Tendon problems are *extremely* rare with fluoroquinolones like Cipro.

"The exact incidence of FQ-induced tendon toxicity is difficult to pinpoint.  Tendonitis from FQs has an incidence of about 2.4 per 10,000 patients, partial Achilles tendon rupture (ATR) is rarer still (about 1.2 per 10,000), and bilateral complete ATR is too uncommon for a meaningful incidence to be calculated."

Chris R:

Here's a real scientist's take on "Dr." Gary Null, the Kent Hovind of alternative medicine:

I don't care if the truth comes out of the mouths of dribbling imbeciles. In amongst his nutiness Null makes some excellent points.

In many a situation where Western medicine is challenged, appologists will avoid the issues raised and quickly go ad hominum.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/story/2005/04/10/seniors-drugs050410.html

http://www.alternet.org/health/147318/100,000_americans_die_each_year_from_prescription_drugs,_while_pharma_companies_get_rich/

Hesterry:

Testudines:

Fear rules, even in the godamn shampoo area. 

Haha, that statement is scarily true.

The use of shampoo is a result of very successful commercial propaganda.

There are over 5000 species of mammals, many with fur or hair and none of which use "shampoo", none of which are greasy or obnoxiously stinky. In all of nature it's the overfed and constipated, animal product and fat consuming humans who stink.

I have personally not used shampoo (nor any other of the various toxic body products) for 20 years, my hair is fine, and it smells pleasantly of me, not petrochemical extracts. Same outcome for my girlfriend and for millions others of our primate cousens.

If you don't mind a personal question, Simon, do you just use water on your hair, or what?

Testudines:

If you don't mind a personal question, Simon, do you just use water on your hair, or what?

Oooh, I'd like to know this too.

And to Aelephant... That statistic was provided by who? :P

http://www.alexanderinjury.com/blog/levaquin-and-cipro-dangerous-drugs-officially-acknowledged/

Cipro may soon be banned, it would seem... Nearly everyone I've talked to who has taken Cipro, has had adverse side-effects - say, nine out of ten people. Every doctor that has researched Cipro that I've talked to, when I tell them I had to take it for a full month, immediately starts shaking their head and grimmacing - they know how dangerous it is.