I don't know if I replied to everyone but skim through this
to see if I addressed anything you said, unless you want to read the whole thing.
"you may want to clarify whether this step is taken using
the state or voluntarily within a free economy"
It seems to me that Jaque/TVP has no real plan in regards to
how this system is going to be constructed. I might be wrong but I haven't
heard anything. A possible solutions would be to do something like designing a
smaller self sustaining neighborhood and get wealthy people to buy in. The
community would include some kind of food production centre and some
recreational activities. So a mini communist state that people can buy into to
free themselves from the rat race. Automated manufacturing, aquaculture and
aeroponics could all be used efficiently enough to create a surplus of goods
that could be sold by this mini nation to raise money for expansion. To try to
change an entire existing country and government at once would be likely to end
"Our wants and desires are infinite"
True. There will most likely always be a segment of the
economy that is a free market. The most important thing is that people will
have essentials provided for them so that they will have all the time in the
world to create things to fulfill said infinite desires, and also not have to
worry about living in poor conditions. Now in such a system people may be more
generous. You design a product, release the plans. People like it, collaborate
on automation of its production.
"You talk about automation as though we won't need any
labour, well where are the machines that can build other machines, that can
repair other machines?"
We really are getting there. I admit reprap isn't going to
cut it but it's a step in the right direction. If basic services can be
automated to the point were there is an abundance of people willing to help
repair the machines then we have succeeded. Think of that random guy who liked
to go to school, maybe he'll do it. I didn't really like Z3 but it did actually
get a bit more realistic talking about manufacturing houses among other things.
This is most definitely a technical challenge and it will be overcome, although
we may need to start smaller and more primitively than Jacques visions.
"btw, here's a giant red flag alert. WHen Peter showed Z3 in
theaters, torrents started popping up everywhere, and people were uploading the
film on youtube. For a group wanting to abolish money, propertyy rights and
ownership, why was there such a strong call to stop people from sharing the
theatrical release online?"
If Charles Darwin found Christ I would still be an atheist.
If Peter and Jacque began to support capitalism I would still support a RBE.
"In case you haven't seen it:"
I'll watch that but I don't have time right now.
"How are you going to get people to submit this data, which
changes from day to day, hour to hour minute to minute, every single day?
I'm really seeing a lack of imagination here. This is
already happening. Stores do not stock their shelves based on price, they stock
them based on past data and estimated demand. At least this is my understanding
of it, correct me if I'm wrong (seriously I might be).
"Made available by whom? For what reason? What is their
incentive for innovation?"
Imagine when you were a kid and you were let go for summer
break. You most likely did nothing for two weeks then you got bored and got to
work on something. To say that people will do nothing unless you dangle a
carrot in front of their faces is an insult to humanity.
Here's a video for you:
"Companies like Starbucks, McDonalds would be all over this
even now, yet I don't see them doing it. Talk about economic incentive,
never having to pay their employees? Yet you talk about this as if it's
just going to happen. Why? What's the incentive?"
There are already robots that could completely automate a
McDonalds. The fact is that if people started doing this right now it would be
one costly to start up and two completely shut the free market the fuck down. The
service sector absorbed the jobs lost by the manufacturing sector. More than
half of the United States population is employed in this especially mind
numbing part of the economy. If the service sector was automated then there
would really be nowhere for these millions of people to go, except possibly
back to university. It would be a catastrophe.
Here's another nice video, I could probably find something
more like MD's but this is cool to:
"Why would I do anything at all?"
Remember that we don't try to gain money for money. Just
because people have all the essentials and some comfort items covered doesn't
mean there aren't new things to be invented and places to explore.
"The moment you quantify the value of any object or
resource, that is price, even if you don't want to call it that."
I have no problem with calling it a price, kind of like I
don't have a problem calling the Venus project communism. Let's get quantifyin.
So to determine what resources are most valuable we look at how scarce they
are/ how quickly they replenish and give this value some units. We could say maybe,
the percentage of the earth's weight they make up for example. Another thing to
take into consideration is that most products will be designed to use materials
like aluminum that can be completely recycled when the product becomes obsolete
and so aluminum would be given a lower value because it can be retrieved at a
later date. The important differences between this system and what we have now
is the emphasis on automation and collective ownership. You don't have to work
in a degrading job or endure poor living conditions. You are guaranteed a good
quality of life. People will still be able to work together using a fair share
of available resources to produce whatever they want.
"what's the value of that glass if you've been lost in the
desert with no water for 2 days? "
One of the main goals of this system is to ensure nobody is
going without water for 2 days, possibly because they didn't pay their hydro
bill or something silly like that.
"we know what happens when people get communism
I think the key to making this work is small-scale
implementation and then expansion.
"I have to laugh when Zeitgeisters think a computer can
correctly estimate a resource. "
I laugh when I see a human devoid of imagination, I'm crying
on the inside.
"It costs the same amount of time, ink and energy to ask for
X as it does to ask for 10,000X"
Yes but do you really need to ask for 10000x
I keep saying this but it's really important to start off
with essential services. There is no problem with a free market handling your
frivolous request for 10,000 iphones as long as you can find something they
want to pay for it. Money can buy wants. Needs should be automated, in order of
"It sounds to me like you are describing what YOU want"
Yes, yes I do. I actually want to work as an inventor and
work on things to make peoples lives easier and more enjoyable. Over half the
workforce is in the service sector, as in menial labor that could be done by
machines. People should be free to work on important things like: space
travel/colonization, life extension, genetic engineering, artificial
intelligence and other things more interesting than working at McDonalds.
"Have you visited housing projects? Section 8
Nope. I'm sure with some renovations and some nicer
inhabitants they could be quite pleasant though. Maybe put some kind of garden
nearby for food, sounds nice.
"It results in depression, suicide, drug abuse, and general
apathy and destruction of any kind of planning and foresight."
Correlation. It could be because the people who are not able
to adapt to a free market are like this already. This does not necessarily
imply that if people from the population that is able to adapt were put in such
conditions that they would turn out the same.
Jim Casey, are you agreeing with me or am I hallucinating?
"When you get rid of the market system, you get rid of the
structure which supports and creates these tools of human achievement."
I'm not sure what you're saying exactly but an axe is just
as useful without a price tag as it is with. The same methods can also be used
to make said axe.
"I also noticed that. It is intensely ironic."
"I can only speak for myself, but my sense is that for the
people here at FDR, a bare assertion, a recitation of dogma, coupled with lofty
promises of what will happen in the future, will convince no one of anything."
You're right. Speaking for myself, I'm trying to come up
with a plan. I'm identifying what can be done and trying to come up with how we
should start. I think one completely self-sustaining house that can be
mass-produced is a good start. Think of it like cell biology where the parts
can function without an entire connected organism.
Once again I'm sorry for being so demanding of you all with
my first post. I was tired and felt an urge to start an intense debate. Anyways
I think I've explained a lot of things, although I'm sure I won't have
convinced anybody. My economics may be a bit shoddy; keep in mind that the
economics of the free market have had hundreds of years to develop versus a
small amount of time for this kind of societies specific operations to be
To make this work we need to worry about automating
essential services and making the best use of current technology. We must also
not get carried away with large ambitions. Think of how it will work on a small
scale, like a town or subdivision. Once we can make that work we can worry
about expanding this abundance-production model to the production of other
goods as well as expanding it to a greater number of people. See you all in the