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Latest post Sat, Sep 4 2010 6:20 PM by Paul47. 4 replies.
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  • Mon, Aug 30 2010 11:37 PM

    Non-Violence as Defense

    For those interested in pacifism, and how non-violence can be used in self defense or in regional defense, here are a few links:

    http://georgedonnelly.com/politics/strength-through-peace-nonviolence

    An interesting notion in the video found on the above-linked page, was his ideas about the acknowledgement of the victim/offender relationship.  Essentially he says that by simply not acknowledging that relationship, often the entire frame of the relationship can be broken.  Additionally, he asserts that acting upon our fight or flight mechanism as a response to violence implicitly acknowledges the legitimacy of that relationship.  By choking down the fear, and clinging to the truth (that the relationship was illegitimate) people prevailed.

    I believe this to be fully worth considering, for those who advocate the use of violence in self-defense.

    http://voluntaryist.com/articles/027b.php

    http://www.voluntaryist.com/forthcoming/withoutfiringashot.php

    http://www.voluntaryist.com/forthcoming/withoutfiringashot2.php

    "To want leaders and at the same time want to be free is to want the impossible. It's necessary to choose one or the other: to be free, entirely free, denying all authority, or to be slaves perpetuating the domination of many by one man." ~ Ricardo Flores Magon

  • Tue, Aug 31 2010 10:11 AM In reply to

    • Paul47
    • Top 500 Contributor
    • Joined on Mon, Jul 12 2010
    • Posts 211

    Re: Non-Violence as Defense

    Thanks for the links.

    I didn't get far with the first one; this sentence looked pretty implausible: "Nonviolence, argues Dr Michael Nagler in the above talk (well worth its 46 minutes), always makes things better, even when we who practice it get hurt or killed." No real need to read further.

    The first voluntaryist article I found a lot more persuasive, because it moved these tactics away from moral arguments and toward strategic and tactical ones, and also contained some recognition of reality, i.e.:

    First, is the attitude and orientation of the opponent; success seems somewhat dependent upon whether the opponent really cares how a population views him - whether he has any long-term interests in pacifying or winning support. Also, the effect varies upon whether the opponent is the resister's own countrymen; if foreigners are being resisted, non-violent resisters may more easily play upon common identity and nationalism. Finally, in some societies passive suffering may be viewed with contempt, and it can produce an opposite effect: instead of viewing suffering as noble, they perhaps see it as masochism or "an exploitation of the rulers' good natured reluctance to allow unnecessary suffering, denying thus any attributes of personal courage or virtue to the sufferer."

    I think there are very strong arguments for non-violent tactics. For example, the South should have let Fort Sumter sink a few ships for nonpayment of the hated Northern excise tax, before starving them out. That likely would have thwarted Lincoln's ploy.

    But violence has its place. The state of Massachusetts, responding to federal financial incentives to kidnap children, started taking many kids from parents for no good reason. Finally it got so bad that two fathers, figuring they would have no chance to get their kids back through normal channels, killed the social workers in their cases. I suspect the kidnapping slowed down significantly, because social workers want an easy state job and a fat pension, not death. Of course there are no studies to prove so; it's not in the state's interest to have such. But we can guess it works that way.

    Using nonviolence works less well for individual criminal action. Then you are not looking to apply pressure to institutions, but for a change of heart in the criminal attacking you - which as the article admitted, is often bad tactics. Use of nonviolence in the political arena does not imply one has to be a pacifist.

    I'm all for delegitimizing the state and informing people the state's predations depend significantly on the peoples' acquiescence. Youtube videos of cops beating pregnant women are powerful. But I'm not about to discard violence as a tool (all tools, both violence and nonviolence, can be used well, or poorly). Fear in the minds of the ruling class can be a good thing. Also, some people just need killing (Mussolini, hanging from that lamp post, comes to mind).

  • Tue, Aug 31 2010 7:01 PM In reply to

    Re: Non-Violence as Defense

    Paul47:

    I didn't get far with the first one; this sentence looked pretty implausible: "Nonviolence, argues Dr Michael Nagler in the above talk (well worth its 46 minutes), always makes things better, even when we who practice it get hurt or killed." No real need to read further.

    Okay, I just have to say WOW to this one whenever I see it.

    I'm presuming, since you're on this site, that you have some interest in logical thought processes, and in judging things from a more rational perspective.  Am I correct in that presumption?

    If so, then I simply must point out that you're basing the way you respond to your environment on the logical fallacy known as "poisoning the well."  You're choosing to view all information presented by Nagler as automatically wrong simply because you disagree with one statement.

    Simply: wow.

    The presentation about Rhesus and Stump-tailed monkeys, at the very least, was a fascinating confirmation of principles of non-violence and anarchy.  So sad you missed out on that fascinating research due to a logical fallacy.  Sucks to be you.

    "To want leaders and at the same time want to be free is to want the impossible. It's necessary to choose one or the other: to be free, entirely free, denying all authority, or to be slaves perpetuating the domination of many by one man." ~ Ricardo Flores Magon

  • Tue, Aug 31 2010 8:44 PM In reply to

    • RobR
    • Top 500 Contributor
    • Joined on Thu, Jan 29 2009
    • San Francisco Area
    • Posts 219

    Re: Non-Violence as Defense

    Thanks for the video ebsarver.

    I think Nagler's work was mentioned in my post Peace among primates.  An article covering peaceful societies of primates by Robert Sapolsky

    It has another study mentioned where they have a similar effect with baboons which is pretty neat.  The method of inculcating peaceful behavior though was the aggressive / dominant males got tuberculosis and died off...  Very interesting though considering baboons normally exist in a dominance hierarchy.

  • Sat, Sep 4 2010 6:20 PM In reply to

    • Paul47
    • Top 500 Contributor
    • Joined on Mon, Jul 12 2010
    • Posts 211

    Re: Non-Violence as Defense

    If so, then I simply must point out that you're basing the way you respond to your environment on the logical fallacy known as "poisoning the well."  You're choosing to view all information presented by Nagler as automatically wrong simply because you disagree with one statement.

    Actually, it's more like I have a limited amount of time on this planet, and I have to use some kind of rough filter to figure out what I should spend it on (after deducting all the time consumed by obligations of one sort or another).

    Actually I did read that bit about rhesus monkeys; it was interesting.

    Sucks to be you.

    Since you brought up logical fallacies, this might be one too, don't you think?

    I looked up the "poisoning the well" fallacy. It doesn't seem to be that one, since PTW is an ad hominem. My reason for declining to read his stuff had nothing to do with who the guy is (I don't actually know about him), but with the argument he presented. To be specific, if you get killed via nonviolence, it's hard to say it is "always better". Certainly wasn't better for you, was it? Obviously he is saying, "better for society", but I'm not very impressed with collectivist arguments, for some reason.

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