Freedomain Radio

candice:

@SimonF

In the first study about the Atkins diet you mention that a man dies and another is admitted to hospital (no need to post links- I have read about this study), I have to point out though that in any longitudinal study on any diet there are almost always a hand full of people who fall ill and die

In this case though only the low-carb group suffered fatalities, the other group did not. Sure, I'll accept this may not be a significant sample, but the point is the data doesn't make low-carb look like the safe option. As I said before, the unhealthiness of high meat or high fat diets is well supported by a great body of scientific evidence. Low-carb is not supportable by any scientific evidence, it is nothing but falsehoods and pseudo-science.

Do we have empirical evidence to support the assertion that fatalities on low-carb diets can be caused by high intakes of fat/meat? We have plenty, here is some:

Atkins claimed that one could "Reverse heart disease with filet mignon!" Until the year 2000, all
people had were changes in cardiac risk factors like cholesterol to evaluate the impact of the Atkins Diet
on the heart. But then a landmark study was published which, for the first and only time, actually
measured what was happening to peoples’ arteries on this kind of diet. The results were shocking.
Richard Fleming, M.D., an accomplished nuclear cardiologist, enrolled 26 people into a comprehensive
study of the effects of diet on cardiac function. Using echocardiograms, he could observe the pumping
motion of the heart, and with the latest in nuclear imaging technology--so-called SPECT scans--he was
able to actually directly measure the blood flow within the coronary arteries, the blood vessels that bring
blood to the heart muscle and allow it to pump. It is when one of these coronary arteries gets blocked that
people have a heart attack.

Fleming then put them all on a low saturated fat, high carbohydrate diet--a whole foods vegetarian
diet--the kind that has been proven to not only stop heart disease, but to in some cases actually reverse it,
opening up clogged arteries. A year later the echocardiograms and SPECT scans were repeated. By
that time, however, 10 of his patients had, unbeknownst to him, jumped on the low carb bandwagon and
begun following the Atkins Diet or Atkins-like diets. All of a sudden, Dr. Fleming had an unparalleled
research opportunity dropped in his lap. Here he had extensive imaging of 10 people following a low carb
diet and 16 following a high carb diet. What would their hearts look like at the end of the year? We can
talk about risk factors all we want, but compared to the high carb group, did the coronary heart disease of
the patients following the Atkins Diet improve, worsen, or stay the same?

Those sticking to the whole-foods vegetarian diet showed a reversal of their heart disease as expected.
Their partially-clogged arteries literally got cleaned out, and blood flow to their hearts through their
coronary arteries increased 40%. What happened to those who abandoned the high carb diet and switched
over to the Atkins Diet, chowing down on bunless cheeseburgers? Their condition significantly worsened.
All that saturated fat and cholesterol in their diet clogged their arteries further--the blood flow to their
hearts was cut 40%. Thus, the only study on the Atkins Diet to actually measure arterial blood flow
showed widespread acceptance of a high saturated fat diet like Atkins could be heralding a future
epidemic of fatal heart attacks. Validation that "If you were trying to damage your heart," wrote the
Center for Science in the Public Interest, "you couldn’t do much better than to eat a cheeseburger."
Maybe filet mignon doesn’t work after all.

The blood flow scans have been posted online so people can see the evidence for themselves. The Atkins
Diet, according to the American Dietetic Association, is a heart attack waiting to happen.
"We worry about this," explains Dr. James W. Anderson, Professor of Medicine and Clinical Nutrition at
the University of Kentucky School of Medicine, "because many of the people who love these diets are
men aged 40 to 50, who like their meat. They may be 5 years from their first heart attack. This couldn’t be
worse for them. Did you know that for 50% of men who die from heart attacks, the fatal attack is their
first symptom? They will never know what this diet is doing to them."

Emerging evidence also suggests that ketogenic diets may "create metabolic derangement conducive to
cardiac conduction abnormalities and/or myocardial dysfunction"--in other words cause other potentially
life-threatening heart problems as well. Ketogenic diets may cause a pathological enlargement of the heart
called cardiomyopathy, which is reversible, but only if the diet is stopped in time. The Atkins
Corporation denies that Dr. Atkins’ own cardiomyopathy-induced heart attack, hypertension, and blocked
arteries had anything to do with his diet.

http://www.atkinsexposed.org/pdf/atkins-exposed.pdf

@ Simon

Thanks for sharing the studies and bringing to my attention the problem of high meat diets possibly depleting calcium from the bones, my major criticism though of their assumption that the osteoperosis in the Inuit is caused by high meat intake, it is a terribly reductionist theory to have made, bone strength is influenced by a myriad of factors, one huge thing that affects inuits is they have barely any access to Vitamin D because they have so little exposure to the sun, also the study fails to talk about the amount of weight bearing activity they engage in, calcium depletion is one small part of a massive process that occurs in bones losing their strength. I have done some reading around this, it seems that vegetables, nuts and fish help form an alkaline environment better for the bones, but doesn't necessarily mean cutting meat consumption.

Here are some good references

http://www.marksdailyapple.com/calcium-for-women/

http://www.marksdailyapple.com/ladies-we-can-stop-with-the-calcium-chews-already/

Lol and just for some extra confusion about the whole healthiest-diet debate, here's a study directly contradicting that Inuits have unhealthy bones! The last paragraph of this one is particularly interesting as it gives an explanation for calcium in the urine that the study you mentioned does not.

http://www.westonaprice.org/blogs/does-meat-really-leach-calcium-from-the-bones.html.html

The Dawson-Hughes group, contrary to many other studies, did not observe higher urinary calcium with higher protein intake.  Studies conducted by Jane Kerstetter's group at the University of Connecticut, however, showed that an even larger increase in dietary protein from 0.7 mg/kg to 2.1 mg/kg did, in fact increase urinary calcium, but not by leaching it from bone.  Instead, they found that consuming more protein increased calcium absorption from the intestines.  Markers of bone turnover tended to decrease on the high-protein diet but the decrease was not statistically significant.  Kerstetter's group is conducting ongoing investigations to determine the mechanism by which meat and protein enhance the intestinal absorption of calcium.

Does meat really leach calcium from the bones then?  Not according to the scientific evidence.

Here are some good resourceson saturated fats in relation to CVD etc

almost 350k subjects over 5-23 years.

http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/abstract/ajcn.2009.27725v1 

another good resource

http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/abstract/ajcn.2008.26285v1

Richard D:

I just recently bought a 20 kilograms steel bucket of Coconut oil for only 63$.

 

Where!?

candice:

@ Simon

Thanks for sharing the studies and bringing to my attention the problem of high meat diets possibly depleting calcium from the bones, my major criticism though of their assumption that the osteoperosis in the Inuit is caused by high meat intake, it is a terribly reductionist theory to have made, bone strength is influenced by a myriad of factors, one huge thing that affects inuits is they have barely any access to Vitamin D because they have so little exposure to the sun, also the study fails to talk about the amount of weight bearing activity they engage in, calcium depletion is one small part of a massive process that occurs in bones losing their strength. I have done some reading around this, it seems that vegetables, nuts and fish help form an alkaline environment better for the bones, but doesn't necessarily mean cutting meat consumption.

The Inuit get plenty of vitamin D from oily fish. Weight bearing activity will increase bone density and help to prevent osteoporosis, but a lack of it doesn't cause osteoporosis - for that you will need a deficiency or metabolic imbalance.

candice:

Here are some good references

http://www.marksdailyapple.com/calcium-for-women/

http://www.marksdailyapple.com/ladies-we-can-stop-with-the-calcium-chews-already/

Those are not "good references", they are the erroneous writings of a poorly informed and unqualified diet fadist.

candice:

Lol and just for some extra confusion about the whole healthiest-diet debate, here's a study...

The Weston A Price Nutrition Foundation do not produce any studies. They are another bunch of poorly informed and unqualified fanatics with an agenda.

There simply is no body of scientific evidence in support of low-carb diets, and there is a great body of evidence against them, which I have demonstrated right here.

A group of Seventh-day Adventists appears to be the longest-lived, formally studied population in the world, with an average life span of 78.5 years for men and 82.3 for women. They are predominantly vegetarians, eat a low fat diet, and the vegetarians amongst them live the longest. http://news.adventist.org/2001/07/stuy-liks-avetist-lifestyle-with-logevity.html

Given that a vegetarian diet supports the longest and healthiest life, and that diets high in meat and animal products do not - what diet will a rational person select?

Why do low carb/high carb arguments seem to ignore types of carbohydrates.  I as I understand it, carbohydrates are what fuels our brains, and wherease the overconsumption of simple carbohydrates causes problems with blood sugar/insulin levels in the blood, complex carbohydrates deliver the fuel our brain needs at more regular and sustained levels.

It makes no sense to argue hi carb vs. low carb, as clearly there is an amount and type of carbohydrates which the human body needs to function correctly.  Therefore the discussion should center around what the ideal level is, and clearly diet recommendations which seek to eliminate carbs as much as possible cannot be healthy.

Am I wrong?

well, I guess a study about a population who lives a long time does seem convincing for a vego diet and all, but at the same time just about everyone these days at least in Western Society is living much longer, the average life span now is over 80 for both men and women in some countries, from a variety of diets, given that I've never been slimmer or looked better on a low carb diet, bearing in mind I was a vegan and vegetarian for many years, the immediate advantes of low carbing are just too good to give up even in the face of some studies that might suggest they aren't good for you, though these studies you have presented to me I do not consider particularly strong evidence of a low carb diet=unhealthy particularly when I consider the incredible studies I have found. The fact of the matter is, the more fruit and veg and whole grains I eat, the more weight I gain, perhaps I'm just extremely sensitive to insulin, but I want to keep my figure and my skin fresher from AGE's so like many here the best option for that is low carbing. I also know that as I get older I will also have stronger response to eating carbs i.e. gain weight more rapidly when eating them, so it's a habit I may as well get into now.

Btw, some study mentioned above about putting children on a low carb diet, which I can attest to all is a terrible idea, children have different nutritional requirements to adults.

I know you'll say "you can't have read any good studies because no unbiased ones exist or anything!" I just don't really have the time to go about presenting them all to you here, but if you are interested try searching ScienceDaily, or read a few books about it, Taubes (his book is far less biased than you think, he presents arguments from both sides and weighs the evidence fairly) is obviously another good source and there are other excellent sources around.

Why would a low carb diet be bad for children candice?

I've seen a ketogenic diet proposed and used for children with epilepsy when drugs don't have an effect. I didn't see a single warning beyond the risk of bone spurs and 1 in 20 getting kidney stones.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ketogenic_diet

The Inuit children eat low carb right?

The remarkable thing about such populations is not so much the average age, since medical science is pushing that to a wall, but the level of health they maintain into old age. And also, the staggering number of centenarians. Making it to 80 means little if you can't remember your last meal or if you need to wear diapers. I'm not going to enter this debate, just wanted to throw that out there. Here's an interesting vid:

http://www.ted.com/talks/dan_buettner_how_to_live_to_be_100.html

jorgeben:

The remarkable thing about such populations is not so much the average age, since medical science is pushing that to a wall, but the level of health they maintain into old age. And also, the staggering number of centenarians. Making it to 80 means little if you can't remember your last meal or if you need to wear diapers. I'm not going to enter this debate, just wanted to throw that out there. Here's an interesting vid:

http://www.ted.com/talks/dan_buettner_how_to_live_to_be_100.html

That's really cool!

I think the idea of having healthy habits that help you live longer sounds pretty reasonable. whats more, they've done a good deal of research on the topic.

So, let's see I'll sum up what he says. Don't pig out. Have friendship and an active social life. Take time out of your day to reflect. Low intensity regular physical activity (walking, taking hikes, etc). Eat a diet rich in colorful plants and nuts and beans. Surround yourself with positive people (uh-oh does that mean you have to avoid the internet?). and have a purpose for getting up in the morning.

Have I missed anything in my list?

Interesting how little he talks about diet. Seems he is talking 50% about the psychological aspect of living long.  So to live long you should be a friendlier happier person :D

a63ntsm1th:

Why do low carb/high carb arguments seem to ignore types of carbohydrates.  I as I understand it, carbohydrates are what fuels our brains, and wherease the overconsumption of simple carbohydrates causes problems with blood sugar/insulin levels in the blood, complex carbohydrates deliver the fuel our brain needs at more regular and sustained levels.

It makes no sense to argue hi carb vs. low carb, as clearly there is an amount and type of carbohydrates which the human body needs to function correctly.  Therefore the discussion should center around what the ideal level is, and clearly diet recommendations which seek to eliminate carbs as much as possible cannot be healthy.

Am I wrong?

What types of food constitute complex carbohydrates? The types of carbohydrates restricted in a low carb diet are sugars and grains, (incidentally, the types of carbohydrates which were not readily available to paleolithic man). When you restrict sugar and grains, you are left with a huge calorie deficit for which you must substitute meat. Each of my meals is basically just a meat and two vegetables -- the low carbohydrate kind.

One more thing, though. You don't need to eat any carbohydrates for your body to function correctly. There are several indigenous tribes that have been found to eat, essentially, no carbohydrates. You liver makes glucose from protein through a process called gluconeogenesis. I have far more energy now than I ever had when I was eating carbs. I can run an 11 minute mile now, for the first time in about 25 years.

RobR:

Why would a low carb diet be bad for children candice?

I've seen a ketogenic diet proposed and used for children with epilepsy when drugs don't have an effect. I didn't see a single warning beyond the risk of bone spurs and 1 in 20 getting kidney stones.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ketogenic_diet

The Inuit children eat low carb right?

1 in 20 kids on a ketogenic diet, get kidney stones??? Can you back that up, please?

People are making claims that low carb diets have been studied and have been shown to cause problems. I take exception to statements like this because I have looked at the science, and there are no such studies which indict low carb diets where carbs were restricted. Every study that I've seen which indicts meat, does NOT restrict carbohydrates. So it's simply not valid when trying to ascertain the effects of a low carb diet.

Opinions of people, even doctors, are just that - opinions.

Here are some studies showing health benefits of low carb diets:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18495047
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16774674
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20194883
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19632695
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9165167
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9014981

Here's a 20 years study:

http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa055317

And there is no evidence that saturated fat increases the risk of heart disease:

http://www.ajcn.org/cgi/content/abstract/ajcn.2009.27725v1

These are not a comprehensive list. These are just some that I dug up. It's only been about 3 years where low carbohydrate diets have been studied in earnest. This is the amazing thing about these studies: they are universal when it comes to showing health improvements with low carb diets.

All I have to do is a general search to find universal results:

http://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&q=heart+disease+ketogenic&btnG=Search&as_sdt=4000000000&as_ylo=&as_vis=1

It's not hard.

Now, get this: It's been known for several years that epileptic patients do not experience seizure when on a ketogenic (low carb) diet. This has become a common treatment for epilepsy. Now it's starting to look like some forms of cancer may not be able to survive with patients on a low carb diet.

http://scholar.google.com/scholar?hl=en&q=cancer+ketogenic&btnG=Search&as_sdt=4000000000&as_ylo=&as_vis=1

It takes a long time to change the world, but this information coming out now, regarding the health benefits of low carbohydrate diets, is so powerful, that it will turn the world around, probably in the next 5 to 10 years.

This is a write-up by Dr. Eades on an interesting study:

http://www.proteinpower.com/drmike/low-carb-diets/nutrition-and-health-in-agriculturalists-and-hunter-gatherers/#more-2877

Two tribes, same area, 5000 years apart. One tribe grew grain; the other tribe ate meat. Guess which tribe lived longer, had few periods of starvation, better bone structure, better teeth, and overall better health?

For several hundred years, people have been aware of a phenomenon they call 'the diseases of civilization'. These diseases are almost universally found in wealthier countries, but rarely in primitive tribes which eat their ancestral diet. These diseases are diabetes, obesity, heart disease, tooth decay, and cancer, to name a few. What's the common factor found in cultures where these diseases are rare? They don't eat sugar and flour, both of which have huge influences on blood sugar levels, and both of which are highly processed forms of carbohydrates.

RobR:

Why would a low carb diet be bad for children candice?

I've seen a ketogenic diet proposed and used for children with epilepsy when drugs don't have an effect. I didn't see a single warning beyond the risk of bone spurs and 1 in 20 getting kidney stones.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ketogenic_diet

The Inuit children eat low carb right?

Thanks for calling me on this, Rob, I recall one time just reading that low carb is bad for kids by a woman who wrote one of my fave low carb cook books so I think I blindly took her word, I haven't read any studies. Having said that, 1 in 20 children getting kidney stones from ketogenic diet seems quite high, it's not the sort of thing I associate with children but with fat old men!

After actually reading the wikipedia article they say the 1 in 20 kidney stones resulted from recommending the kids lower their water intake by 80%.