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Latest post Mon, Dec 21 2009 1:43 PM by MarkT. 19 replies.
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  • Tue, Dec 15 2009 8:42 PM

    Help persuade my Minarchist friend to give up his last 1% and embrace freedom!

    This is how he feels we can save our failing state now;  Okay, improve the economy with better restrictions on the free market through better consumer protections that keep businesses from playing hand-to-hand with the consumer
    i.e. if you're going to be a health insurance company, make it illegal to drop a patient when they get sick
    subprime mortages, get rid of them, but really the idea being let the money felow through, not upward
    so that the economy remains stable and the worker population, the largest population, has their dollar effect protected
    (And by dollar effect i mean the efficacy of consumer action they get for...yeah i'm really bad at making statements simple, basically, consumer protection, the dollar means the same for the poor as it does for the rich).
    He also has stated that he completely fears the "distortionists" view because a monopoly would soon become a government, hiding the poor and farming the rest for labor O.o  

    What are the flaws in his argument? I've been reading Labour Market Regulation and Economic Performance: A Critical Review of Arguments and some Plausible Lessons from India, trying to get a grasp on the benefits and disadvantages of both the "distortionists" view and the "institutionalist" view on market regulation.  But as it is some very heavy reading for someone with such a lack of this economical jargon I cannot formulate the conclusions quickly and have an even harder time regurgitating them cohesively.  Please someone help me not necessarily refute his points but check their viability.

    "It is better to die on your feet then live on your knees." Emiliano Zapata

  • Wed, Dec 16 2009 4:33 AM In reply to

    Re: Help persuade my Minarchist friend to give up his last 1% and embrace freedom!

    I think you can also do an amazing job of showing someone what true freedom really means by being a positive, empathic, courageous and virtuous individual. That last intellectual 1% that you described, also happens to be the last 99% to drop emotionally, for many people.

    I think it's good that you're there for your friend. Stefan's 'Everyday Anarchy' and 'Practical Anarchy' are excellent books for detailed discussion about voluntarism and free markets.

  • Wed, Dec 16 2009 5:04 AM In reply to

    Re: Help persuade my Minarchist friend to give up his last 1% and embrace freedom!

    SharinganEye42o:

    What are the flaws in his argument?

    Well... that he's advocating the initiation of violence, right?

    I am one of many people who used to be extremely into Freedomain Radio and have now turned away from it. This is essentially because upon examining the empirical evidence about Stef's most central psychological claims, they just don't turn out to be true - in fact they are surprisingly conclusively contradicted. Please check out my profile for more on this. I think Stef misleads people in very tragic ways.

  • Wed, Dec 16 2009 5:32 AM In reply to

    Re: Help persuade my Minarchist friend to give up his last 1% and embrace freedom!

    Thanks for the input. The non-aggression axiom is certainly key and I should be arguing with it more I presume. From what I've read on market regulation it seems that regulation is indeed the way to go (the benefits far outweighing a completely free market), who would enforce these regulations? the workers themselves? I'm sure he will opt for the governtment... as for his idea that Companies will become armies, from what I've read in Practical Anarchy it didn't seem feesible (though it was some months ago that I read it) what is the counterpoint to this argument?

    "It is better to die on your feet then live on your knees." Emiliano Zapata

  • Wed, Dec 16 2009 6:02 AM In reply to

    Re: Help persuade my Minarchist friend to give up his last 1% and embrace freedom!

    Who regulates the regulators?

    Competition.

    Cool

  • Wed, Dec 16 2009 6:37 AM In reply to

    Re: Help persuade my Minarchist friend to give up his last 1% and embrace freedom!

    Please join the new Freedomain Radio Facebook page:

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    My status

  • Wed, Dec 16 2009 7:17 AM In reply to

    • Magnus
    • Top 100 Contributor
    • Joined on Mon, Jan 26 2009
    • Posts 666

    Re: Help persuade my Minarchist friend to give up his last 1% and embrace freedom!

    his idea that Companies will become armies

    They did.  It's called "the United States government." 

    Everything he fears is already here in the form of the current State.  Anything that can be done to curtail it is an improvement.

    "The state calls its own violence law, but that of the individual crime."

    -- Max Stirner

  • Wed, Dec 16 2009 12:36 PM In reply to

    • rpellow
    • Top 50 Contributor
    • Joined on Sat, Nov 15 2008
    • Melbourne, Florida
    • Posts 1,144

    Re: Help persuade my Minarchist friend to give up his last 1% and embrace freedom!

    Yea, when talking to my friends about anarcho-capitalism i wont go into the argument from effect until we establish that the government is inherently moral, and uses force and violence, therefore any state solution is a bad solution.

    If they can accept that premise, the rest is rather smooth.

  • Wed, Dec 16 2009 1:15 PM In reply to

    Re: Help persuade my Minarchist friend to give up his last 1% and embrace freedom!

    Can't believe Stefan actually got in on this... he's going to make me blush Embarrassed I'll keep you all informed with my results. I'm going to start with the moral high ground that is the non-aggression axiom, maybe if he accepts that then I'll be able to delve deeper in... it's a shame because I'm not the greatest orator so I may not come off confidently and then he'll pounce all over it... but you can't compromise morals, so I've decided to start there... as I said I'll keep you all informed as the debate goes on. THANKS AGAIN EVERYONE!! and feel free to post any more ideas about the Original Post.

    "It is better to die on your feet then live on your knees." Emiliano Zapata

  • Wed, Dec 16 2009 1:28 PM In reply to

    • rpellow
    • Top 50 Contributor
    • Joined on Sat, Nov 15 2008
    • Melbourne, Florida
    • Posts 1,144

    Re: Help persuade my Minarchist friend to give up his last 1% and embrace freedom!

    If all else fails repeat to yourself

     

    Theft is wrong

    Taxation is theft

    Government taxes

    Government is wrong

  • Wed, Dec 16 2009 1:37 PM In reply to

    Re: Help persuade my Minarchist friend to give up his last 1% and embrace freedom!

    hehehe Well no worries... I'm not trying to convince myself, my principles stand like a rock as T. Jefferson said Yes

    "It is better to die on your feet then live on your knees." Emiliano Zapata

  • Wed, Dec 16 2009 1:42 PM In reply to

    Re: Help persuade my Minarchist friend to give up his last 1% and embrace freedom!

    Also I have another question now... Can what he claims actually fix our economy's dire situation? I'll keep reading to find the answers but if you have any information involving his course of actions please let me know...

    "It is better to die on your feet then live on your knees." Emiliano Zapata

  • Wed, Dec 16 2009 1:45 PM In reply to

    • rpellow
    • Top 50 Contributor
    • Joined on Sat, Nov 15 2008
    • Melbourne, Florida
    • Posts 1,144

    Re: Help persuade my Minarchist friend to give up his last 1% and embrace freedom!

    It seems like he is advocating the use of restrictions to fix the problem, where as its been shown that the free market flourishes without restrictions. .  There are a lot of problems with what he is advocating, basically our problem is to much government, and his solution is more government :-/

     

    edit: i would hardly call him a "minarchist"

  • Wed, Dec 16 2009 3:12 PM In reply to

    Re: Help persuade my Minarchist friend to give up his last 1% and embrace freedom!

    Good catch... I think he is one at core though... In his ideal situation we would digress all the way back to the constituion, which I've always felt was the rules of minarchy written as if by demigods themselves (to somewhat paraphrase Ben Franklin, though Minarchism wasn't even a concept at the time, I just put that in there) but even with the constitution we have warped it so much as to stand where we are now, which as Stefan best describes it "in the sinking ship". So I do feel that in his heart he is a minarchists and that his current arguments are nothing more then attempts to try and solve the problem at large w/o just abandoning the state all together.

     

    Edit:  In Labour Market Regulation and Economic Performance: a critical review of arguments and some plausible lessons from India (so far the only book I've read on the topic), it seems that regulation helps the market much more in the long run.  It's a free pdf from the Geneva International Labor Organization a.k.a ILO I just can't seem to find out how to link the page.... but it's worth a read and maybe it's just me who finds it a hard read (it's very technical) but a good point I was able to derive about regulations is that it advocates in depth studies to identify the specific policies that, in each country, constrain employment creation. (everything in italics is directly from the book, couldn't figure out how to site it...) it states many more advantages to regulated markets so many in fact that they seem to outweigh the "distortionists" view or the unregulatory view...

     

    Edit: I have no clue what I've done to cause this last unusual collection of words...

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    "It is better to die on your feet then live on your knees." Emiliano Zapata

  • Wed, Dec 16 2009 5:35 PM In reply to

    Re: Help persuade my Minarchist friend to give up his last 1% and embrace freedom!

    Regulation is simply euphemism for a threat of force against another person for noncompliance with some dictate.

     

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