Freedomain Radio

in
Latest post Sat, Aug 29 2009 6:52 AM by Stefan Molyneux. 45 replies.
Page 1 of 4 (46 items) 1 2 3 4 Next >
Sort Posts: Previous Next
  • Thu, Aug 6 2009 12:25 PM

    Reflections of UPB: A Total Critique of Molyneux

    (I think he means a 'total criticism of an ethical approach' rather than of me per se :)

    I don't find it easiest article in the world to follow, and it is rather full of typos and ALL CAPS, but if people find the objections interesting, I would be more than happy to do a rebuttal. I did invite him on the Sunday show, I hope he will take up the gauntlet. Smile

     

     

    UPB; i.e. “universally preferable behavior” is an attempt by Stefan Molyneux to form a universal standard of validation that applies not only to: hard sciences, mathematics, and the like, but also to “moral theories.” Thus, Molyneux applies the same standards for consistency that are the necessary and sufficient condition for things like: physics, biology, chemistry, and mathematics, to MORALITY. Thus, UPB is a kind of unified epistemological theory of consistency.

    Molyneux’s main aim and/or goal of using Universally Preferable Behavior is: “morality;” i.e. he seeks to use UPB as an all-encompassing tool to validate (or invalidate) moral theories.

    In Molyneux’s own words in his introductory video to UPB he says:“There is a universally preferable measure of beliefs called truth, proof, evidence, and rationality.”

    Adding: QUOTE “Truth requires logical consistency and/or empirical evidence.”

    As such, Stefbot uses a universally applicable standard for truth claims, which he then applies to what he terms the: “moral” and “physical sciences.”

    Molenux, (by his own admission) fully rejects Plato’s forms, and alsodoesn’t believe that there are any types of morals that exist, either: floating somewhere in the universe, or that are derived from a god or gods. Thus Molyneux notes a sharp distinction between physical objects and moral theories, believing the latter to not exist. Thus for Molyneux, morality flat-out does not exist.

    Yet this is curious, as, Stefbot’s methodological approach to truth; i.e. UPB almost assuredly implies the meta-ethical standpoint of OBJECTIVISM. In other words, it seems that for Molyneux, the truth-values of moral claims can be determined INDEPENDANTLY of the subjective or intersubjective preferences of a group or individual. This becomes apparent when we look at his fixation on the consistency and UNIVERSALITY of morals, as this is the very essence of UPB.

    This can be further demonstrated by Molyneux’s own words when he says:

    Morality IS: Any theory that attempts to describe and define universally preferable behavior; judged as “true” or “false” first by internal consistency, and then by general evidence.”

    Yet the oddity of Stefbot’s theory doesn’t stop there, as he seems to either believe in (or acts like he believes in) OBJECTIVE MORAL REALISM. The very idea of UPB is essentially the expression of this fact. Universally preferable behavior implies that: in actuality, thereare moral claims that are true INDEPENDENTLY of any individual or group’s preferences. What also confirms his “objective moral realism” is the fact that he seems to accept many of the fundamental premises of this type of realism; i.e. Moral Cognitivism.

    UPB can only be a validator or invalidator of moral theories and/or useful if and only if MORAL COGNITIVSM is true, which, UPB assumes that it is. By moral cognitivism I mean: the philosophical belief that ethical/moral claims are indeed statements and therefore can have a true value (i.e. they can be true or false) and can have truth conditions (i.e. they can have necessary and sufficient conditions for being either true or false).

    In addition to this, UPB could only be useful if and only if moral realism was true, as, it would make no sense to validate or invalidate non-cognitive ethical propositions, or to weigh the truth/consistency claims of what would be recognized as false propositions, with a false framework.

    Molyneux also claims to have: “slain the beast of individual relativism, cultural relativism, and nihilism” thus presumably Molyneux must be a Moral Cognitivist, who accepts Objective Moral Realism (as we’ve essentially ruled out all other meta-ethical positions he could take).

    Thus, in accordance with this viewpoint: ethical propositions must be made true by objective features of the world, which are independent of subjective opinion. Hence, Molenux attempts to formulate a foundation for an elementary standard of universal truth on the basis of: logical and scientific qualifiers. It is these types of qualifier that (in his view) are necessary to determine the validity of such moral claims (the same type of methodological reasoning being also applicable to science).

    Stefbot says:“Truth is universally preferable to falsehood; [and] It is universally preferable to replace false ideas with true ones.”

    Adding: QUOTE: “UPB is simply a recognition of this basic reality; UPB is reason, science, evidence, etc.

    Yet this merely begs the question: Why is it the case that truth is universally preferable to falsehood?

    This premise, part of the very intellectual foundation of UPB theory immediately fails the: FACT/VALUE distinction. In other-words, Stefbot is falsely attempting to state: “values” as universal facts. This is a simple category mistake, but nevertheless a significant one, with devastating implications on the intellectual merit of UPB.

    While it is indeed true that values exist in material reality, they do so only as a subjective or inter-subjective opinion/brain-state of an individual, contingent upon their nature, composition, construction, socialization, alignment, etc. In-short this entails that the current values of individuals are derived from the immediate de-facto biological condition of their minds, which were derived from a synthesis of nature and nurture; yet this fact does NOT transmute such “values” or any other type of moral theories derived from them, into a UNIVERSAL TRUTH OR FALSEHOOD. Indeed to even phrase it that way is false, deeply misleading, and a category mistake of epic proportions.

    Typically in the human experience, truth is universally preferable to falsehood for two reasons:

    First: human beings have an innate naturalistic propensity toward truth, as, when an untruth is pointed out in our worldview, we experience cognitive dissonance i.e. psychological stress caused by the realization of two mutually exclusive beliefs. As such, both individuals and society in their own social spheres (at least somewhat) VALUE truth; but they do not pursue truth to pursue truth, they pursue it because they VALUE it.

    Second: Truth generally allows for a greatly increased means to pursue one’s own self-interest; i.e. if we can understand and apply things we know about the world and ourselves, we will inevitably have a greater means of pursuing our own naturalistic self-interest.

    Thus it appears that: right from the beginning, Molenux has (by implication) unknowingly smuggled in consequentialism into his theory; i.e. (in this context): the pursuit of one’s own self-interest by striving for the best means to actualize our values, thus producing preferable consequences; this fact is in stark contrast to the deontological ethics Molyneux claims to advocate. Moreover if Molyneux denies this, then he’s merely begging the question as the statement: truth is universally preferable to falsehood isn’t truebecause truth is universally preferable to falsehood, this is circular reasoning.

    Molyneux (using the same general line of reasoning) also claims that: QUOTE “In a moral argument we already accept the value of UPB: - a universal preference for truth over falsehood, reason over inconsistency.”

    This is a colossal non-sequitur, as it does not follow from the fact thatbecause I am arguing with you, that I’m either: 1) being honest with you in regards to truth, as I may be dishonest with you, and intentionally rejecting truth. Also, it does not follow from the fact that I’m arguing with you that: 2) I value, appreciate, use or even accept truth, as I may in-fact not value truth, I may decide not to use it, and I may even despise it. Statements like these are merely an attempt to sucker people into agreeing with Molyneux, as no individual in their right mind would claim to accept: falsehoods over truth in the middle of an argument; plus, most people view themselves as pursuing truth.

     

    There is also another perplexing contradiction in Molenux’s viewpoint. As, if morals do not exist in the universe, or as any sort of form or relation in reality, but are (in reality) contingent upon the application of one’s own values, then, to invoke notions of morals or moral theories indicates OBJECTIVE MORAL ANTI-REALISM. In other-words, if we apply Molyneux philosophical framework consistently, then: ALL moral claims must be equally false as they unwittingly assume a moral framework that does not exist. Moral statements in Molyneux’s context are non-referential, they do not refer to anything that is in the world, and therefore they are false. –Its like saying: “the current leader of Nazi Germany is very hairy;” this statement is false because it presupposes both: a current leader of Nazi Germany, and a state of Nazi Germany that obviously do not exist.

    Molyneux would probably respond to my claims of inconsistency by the following analogical reasoning: numbers and the scientific method don’t exist, they are not objects, and have no property of existence, however, this does not mean they aren’t useful/true because although they are abstract, they nevertheless refer to a means by which we can pursue truth.

    However, this analogy falls apart at the seams, because, it compare the scientific method and numbers to morals. The problem here is a severe disconnect in properties between concepts, which is the why the analogy fails.

    First, the scientific method refers to a method, a system, a relation, that one can apply to data (an object which exists in some tangible or intangible form). Second, the use of the concept of numbers pertains to the use of the system and/or relation we call: “quantification.” I.e. abstract representations of real objects, useful for determining a certain amount of objects, and relations between certain amounts of objects. Both of these concepts have a referent; i.e. when someone says the word number, they refer to quantification, a kind of possible relation/method which exists in reality (albeit not as a “thing”). The scientific method also refers to a relation. Morality in Stefbot’s usage has no such referent.

    Yet, suppose we invoke the concept of “morality” which according to Stefbot IS NOT:

    1)Empirical (“this man stabs you, is that bad?”)”

    2)”Determined from effect (this moral rule leads to great benefit)”

    3)”A Cultural custom”

    4)”An observation of human habits”

    5)”A biological drive”

    6) “A practical or functional necessity”

    Now, suppose these statements made by Molyneux are true, suppose morals don’t exist in any of these previously stated forms, or even at all. If this is the case then: how could a moral framework exist for them to interact within?! The answer: it’s not possible.

    Molenux’s position is completely analogous to that of a: MORAL NIHILIST. Hence, if we apply Molyneux’s viewpoints consistently, we ultimately defeat Molyneux’s position by sheer contradiction; as, if we act more Molyneuxian than Molyneux, we end up with the moral nihilist (i.e. moral-anti-realist) position that he denies.

    But let me elaborate this point further. Molyneux says:

    1) “A rock falling is bad” - makes no sense to science.

    2) “Only blue rocks fall” – is a testable observation

    3) “Mass Attracts according to F = GMm/ris a testable universal theory.”

    Yet to equate these claims with morality is to equate an abstractionwith a referent to an abstraction without a referent (i.e. to equate a floating abstraction with a valid abstraction).

    The second claim in Molyneux quote refers to: the color and the relationship (in this case a descent) of an object with color; the third claim refers to: a material relationship by which mass attracts. However, what does the first claim refer to in logical positivist i.e. Molyneuxian terms? The answer: nothing. As (according to Molyneux) we cannot appeal to: empiricism, consequentialism, culture, values & biological drives, or practicality; thus we are left with a vacuous statement referring to a floating abstraction. Such would be a useless an unthinkable way of dealing with moral terms.

    Stefbot says: QUOTE: “Since material reality is objective, and behaves in a rational and predictable manner… A statement that is “true” must describe something that is objective, rational, and predictable.”

    Adding: “Those thoughts which are designed to define truth must be: rational, objective, and predictable.

    Since we’ve already established that by the Molyneuxian criteria necessary for valid moral theories cannot exist in any form in reality (or even as a relationship), moral statements cannot (per Molyneuxian reasoning) behave in a rational, objective, and predictable manor. Hence, UPB applied to morality as a validator or invalidator for moral theories is self-defeating if it is an attempt to avoid nihilism, the meta-ethical that Molyneux finds himself within, if applied consistently.

    Now, the question may arise as to why in the debate I claimed that UPB (applied to morals) only proved hypocrisy and not inconsistency. To illustrate here my poorly described point, suppose I hold two mutually exclusive moral propositions to be true at the same time. Suppose for instance that I claim: Killing is ALWAYS wrong in any circumstance; but I also hold that: the STATE is justified in killing.

    This seems to be an obvious and blatant contradiction in the moral theory I hold. And UPB would maintain that I have invalidated my theory by my utterance of such a contradiction; Molyneux equates UPB with a kind-of “souped-up” version of the law of non-contradiction stating: QUOTE “If you say: there is no such thing as UPB, you are contradicting yourself.” Thus, according to UPB, my moral theory would be false.

    But wait a minute, since morals do not exist as things unto themselves, or in any other form/relation, and are ultimately contingent upon a particular application of one’s own values, how might I call such a thing false by contradiction? I really can’t, as I’m not dealing with propositions that can be true to begin with; as (per Molyneuxian criteria) morality cannot be: empirical, determined, cultural, observational, biological, or practical/functional, then, (if we apply Molyneux consistently) this translates moral statements into framework errors. If one claims that: one ought to kill, and one ought not to kill, this is equivalent to saying: one ought to build 3-sided squares, and one ought-not to build 3-sided-squares. Such is unthinkable, a totally non-cognitive proposition to begin with, it’s an error. Thus, to claim inconsistency in this instance is to claim inconsistency in a framework for proving truth that was false to begin with. In a sense it is a contradiction, but not in the context Molyneux was describing, as the inconsistency was the framework, not necessarily the propositions.

    Molyneux also seems to believe that totally arbitrary factors in a moral theory make it self-contradictory. For instance, the example used in the debate was: suppose someone claims that killing is wrong, but claim that individuals who wear green hats (i.e. soldiers) are exempt from this rule. Stefbot points out the stupidity of this commonplace claim, remarking on the fact that the individual who wears the added clothing doesn’t experience any meaningful qualitative differences, even the quantitative differences are negligible. Thus he gages this claim as arbitrary and rationally unsubstantiated, insisting that is contradictory with reality and thus false.

    The fact that the moral framework UPB has lain out for us as the necessary and sufficient condition for valid moral theories (aside from hypocrisy) is false, this example proves no contradiction. Granted, the person claiming that someone wearing green clothing is exempt from the rule of killing is 100% an unsound claim, a claim that has no meaningful basis in reality. However it is not self-contradictory; as, it lays out an exception to the thou shall not kill clause, which (although totally arbitrary) saves it from being contradictory.

    All of this being said: Stefbot has successfully been able to prove individual hypocrisy in the views of persons who hold two mutually exclusive moral proscriptions to be true. And in terms of a moral debate this is a very useful and effective tool; as, cognitive dissonance is the fundamental key which results in people altering their belief systems. Hence, in terms of furthering a debate; Universally Preferable Behavior (as it pertains to establishing individual hypocrisy) is incredibly useful.

    However, UPB does nothing more. And people who advocate its usage should claim nothing more. If we accept its fundamental premises, and apply them consistently, we accept the nihilism we were attempting to avoid in the first place; negating the very point of UPB.

    So what may we conclude from this? It seems that unless Molyneux significantly reduces his claim that UPB is the “solution to the problem of objective ethics,” downplays its importance, and labels it what is actually is: a tool to prove hypocrisy in a debate or analysis; then, the only “beast” Molyneux will have slain is himself. Furthermore, he should come to terms with the nihilism implied by his position, and either admit it or alter his position in order to avoid it.

     

    http://antiacademic.blogspot.com/2009/04/reflections-of-upb-total-critique-of.html

     

    Please join the new Freedomain Radio Facebook page:

    Freedomain Radio - The Largest Philosophy Conversation in the World | Promote Your Page Too


    All Free! - Audio, PDF. Print starting @ $9.99+
    Freedomain Radio Needs Your Support!


    My status

  • Thu, Aug 6 2009 12:52 PM In reply to

    Re: Reflections of UPB: A Total Critique of Molyneux

    You had a debate with him in the past.

     

    LaughingMan0X

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iZQSUFGbEqI&feature=channel_page

    Hapiness = truth about your own virtues

  • Thu, Aug 6 2009 3:00 PM In reply to

    • Nathan
    • Top 10 Contributor
    • Joined on Thu, Mar 23 2006
    • Philadelphia, PA
    • Posts 13,031
    • Philosopher King

    Re: Reflections of UPB: A Total Critique of Molyneux

    Stefan Molyneux:
    Yet the oddity of Stefbot’s theory doesn’t stop there, as he seems to either believe in (or acts like he believes in) OBJECTIVE MORAL REALISM.

    Stefan Molyneux:
    What also confirms his “objective moral realism” is the fact that he seems to accept many of the fundamental premises of this type of realism; i.e. Moral Cognitivism.

    Stefan Molyneux:
    This seems to be an obvious and blatant contradiction in the moral theory I hold.

    Stefan Molyneux:
    Molyneux also seems to believe that totally arbitrary factors in a moral theory make it self-contradictory.

    Stef, I think you seem to be a Marxist, post-syndicalist anarcho-nudist with a fetish for nude race car driving.

    Follow me on Tumblr.

  • Thu, Aug 6 2009 3:06 PM In reply to

    Re: Reflections of UPB: A Total Critique of Molyneux

    Stefan Molyneux:
    Furthermore, he should come to terms with the nihilism implied by his position, and either admit it or alter his position in order to avoid it.

    That's just completely and utterly, unbelievably priceless! Muahahahahaaaaaaa! I just keeled over!

    ROFL

    "Better a cruel truth than a comfortable delusion."

    Filed under: ,
  • Thu, Aug 6 2009 3:30 PM In reply to

    • GregG
    • Top 10 Contributor
    • Joined on Tue, Feb 21 2006
    • Brooklyn, NY
    • Posts 14,170
    • Philosopher King

    Re: Reflections of UPB: A Total Critique of Molyneux

    1. The author implies that Stef is either ( a ) inadvertently conflating, or ( b ) actively obfuscating, the distinction between "objectively true" and "universally true". Yet Stef is explicitly aware of this distinction in the book, and does his level best to make his readers aware of it.

    2. The author claims Stef is misapplying moral cognitivism to arrive at "universal preferences". Yet, the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy uses a definition of moral cognitivism that is consonant with the claims Stef is making int his book: "...it holds that moral statements do express beliefs and that they are apt for truth and falsity. But cognitivism need not be a species of realism since a cognitivist can be an error theorist and think all moral statements false. Still, moral realists are cognitivists insofar as they think moral statements are apt for truth and falsity and that many of them are in fact true..."

    3. The author attempts to disprove the existence of a universal preference for truth in mankind, by providing proofs and evidence for the existence of a universal preference for truth in mankind: ( a ) "...human beings have an innate naturalistic propensity toward truth, as, when an untruth is pointed out in our worldview, we experience cognitive dissonance i.e. psychological stress caused by the realization of two mutually exclusive beliefs. As such, both individuals and society in their own social spheres (at least somewhat) VALUE truth; but they do not pursue truth to pursue truth, they pursue it because they VALUE it..." -- In other words, they have a preference for it, and that preference is present in every indiviidual (that is not insane or evil). ( b ) "....if we can understand and apply things we know about the world and ourselves, we will inevitably have a greater means of pursuing our own naturalistic self-interest..." - in otherwords, human beings are equipped to recognize and identify with the value of truth - in otherwords, they prefer it universally to falsehood.

    4. The author claims that Stef is obfuscating the observation of the fact of universal preference, with moral consequentialism. Yet, it is the author himself who is attempting to sow this obfuscation in the minds of his readers, by ( a ) hijacking the observation for himself, and ( b ) implying that Stef is being dishonest.

    5. The author then himself obfuscate the observation of a fact of human consciousness, with a starting premise in a logical argument. "Truth is universally preferable to falsehood", by the author's own admission, and by the claim made in Stef's book, because it is. Because we can see it acted out in human psychology and thinking, everywhere, at all times (excepting insanity and psychosis). It is an axiom, not premise. The fact that the author himself knows this, and is conscious of it, leads me to believe it is he that is  the dishonest one here.

    6. The author then attempts to claim that actions cannot be used to discern the intentions of an individual, since they could be incongruent. This is tantamount to claiming that you can't trust your own senses. He then proceeds to attribute specific malevolent intentions to Stef's actions, but fails to explain how he came to those conclusions himself. That's just laughable child-caught-with-hand-in-cookie-jar misdirection.

    7. The author's whole rebuttal is grounded on the fact that truth is indeed preferable to falsehood, in every human being, and the author is no exception. His entire rebuttal is grounded in the notion that Stef is in error,  and must be corrected. This implies that the author already believes that truth is universally preferable, as well as personally preferable, to falsehood. Why else write a rebuttal and then publish it? It makes his entire case self-refuting.

    I am not going to critique the rest of the rebuttal. Instead, I will end by letting the author speak for himself:

    may in-fact not value truth, I may decide not to use it, and I may even despise it.

    I'm not even going to address why I think he randomly drifts betweeen "Molyneux" and "Stefbot", or why he regularly mispells the man's name, or why he insists on vehement capitalisms, or why he can't seem to spell certain words right. That would just be ad hominem, right?

     

  • Thu, Aug 6 2009 7:01 PM In reply to

    • Luke C
    • Top 500 Contributor
    • Joined on Wed, May 20 2009
    • Jacksonville, FL
    • Posts 118

    Re: Reflections of UPB: A Total Critique of Molyneux

    Solid jackson! Big Smile

    "I choose to think, therefore I am."

    - Luke Clayborn Hopper

     

    "'I hate a Roman named Status Quo!' he said to me. 'Stuff your eyes with wonder,' he said, 'live as if you'd drop dead in ten seconds. See the world. It's more fantastic than any dream made or paid for in factories. Ask no guarantees, ask for no security, there never was such an animal. And if there were, it would be related to the great sloth which hangs upside down in a tree all day every day, sleeping its life away. To hell with that,' he said, 'shake the tree and knock the great sloth down on his ass.'"

    - Ray Bradbury (Fahrenheit 451)

     

    Stop violence at it's primary source, end the state.

  • Thu, Aug 6 2009 9:20 PM In reply to

    Re: Reflections of UPB: A Total Critique of Molyneux

    I didn't read much of the rest because it wasn't all that easy to read (I had to read the comments first and then look back to kind of start understanding), but this...

    Stefan Molyneux:

    However, this analogy falls apart at the seams, because, it compare the scientific method and numbers to morals. The problem here is a severe disconnect in properties between concepts, which is the why the analogy fails.


    First, the scientific method refers to a method, a system, a relation, that one can apply to data (an object which exists in some tangible or intangible form). Second, the use of the concept of numbers pertains to the use of the system and/or relation we call: “quantification.” I.e. abstract representations of real objects, useful for determining a certain amount of objects, and relations between certain amounts of objects. Both of these concepts have a referent; i.e. when someone says the word number, they refer to quantification, a kind of possible relation/method which exists in reality (albeit not as a “thing”). The scientific method also refers to a relation. Morality in Stefbot’s usage has no such referent.

    ...I think Stef has made it quite clear that UPB - and if not explicitly in the book then definitely in his videos - is "a method, a system, a relation, that one can apply to actions".

    And then I stopped reading, because it was just too much effort.

     

  • Fri, Aug 7 2009 5:59 AM In reply to

    Re: Reflections of UPB: A Total Critique of Molyneux

    You'd like a free book, free podcasts, free videos, a free message board, and now a free personalized book report as well? Smile

    Keep reading, it generally does become clear...

    Please join the new Freedomain Radio Facebook page:

    Freedomain Radio - The Largest Philosophy Conversation in the World | Promote Your Page Too


    All Free! - Audio, PDF. Print starting @ $9.99+
    Freedomain Radio Needs Your Support!


    My status

  • Fri, Aug 7 2009 6:33 AM In reply to

    Re: Reflections of UPB: A Total Critique of Molyneux

    I heard that spontaneous donations can help towards future UPB clarifications too...

    Wink

    "Better a cruel truth than a comfortable delusion."

  • Fri, Aug 7 2009 7:37 AM In reply to

    • Moyer
    • Top 500 Contributor
    • Joined on Fri, Dec 28 2007
    • Posts 124
    • Gold Donator

    Re: Reflections of UPB: A Total Critique of Molyneux

    Three things jumped out at me right away.

     

    1. Truth being preferable to falsehood.

     

    Like Greg G says, his entire argument is predicated on this. But even if you don’t accept that truth is preferable to falsehood, fine. All UPB says is “If you want to make a truth statement, you have to meet these standards.” If you think false statements are better than true statements that’s totally fine. Right? Go around telling people that your moral theory is false and that you think falsehood is better than truth.

     

    I don’t think UPB has to prove truth is better than falsehood. Just like the scientific method doesn’t have to prove truth is better than falsehood. If you want to say something true, use UPB. If you aren’t interest in saying something true, then use whatever method you want.

     

    1. Moral claims aren’t a “referent” or aren’t referring to anything in reality -- unlike numbers.

     

    Rezzealaux was spot on. It’s pretty obvious that moral theories refer to human behavior.

     

    1. “Contradictory” moral claims are only hypocritical, not false.

     

    However it is not self-contradictory; as, it lays out an exception to the thou shall not kill clause, which (although totally arbitrary) saves it from being contradictory.

     

    I don’t think that Stef claims a statement like “killing is wrong for everyone except people in green uniforms” is self-contradictory. But it does contradict reality, because uniforms don’t change any fundamental natures about human beings or physical laws. Just like saying “gravity attracts matter unless you wear this magical hat” isn’t self-contradictory. But it does contradict reality, because hats don’t change the physical nature of humans and allow them to fly.

     

    The author seems to recognize this in the paragraph before when he says “Thus he gages this claim as arbitrary and rationally unsubstantiated, insisting that is contradictory with reality and thus false.” But then he conflates this with a claim of self-contradiction, which it isn’t.

     

     

    Anyway, those are just my random thoughts about the biggest holes in the author’s arguments. Let me know what you guys think. 

  • Fri, Aug 7 2009 8:56 AM In reply to

    Re: Reflections of UPB: A Total Critique of Molyneux

    Plus you can't even say 'it is true that falsehood is universally preferable' without making a massive and blatent contradiction in terms. Obviously, that statement would have to be the only magical exception to the very rule it proposes!

    "Better a cruel truth than a comfortable delusion."

  • Fri, Aug 7 2009 9:35 AM In reply to

    • GregG
    • Top 10 Contributor
    • Joined on Tue, Feb 21 2006
    • Brooklyn, NY
    • Posts 14,170
    • Philosopher King

    Re: Reflections of UPB: A Total Critique of Molyneux

    Moyer:

    1. “Contradictory” moral claims are only hypocritical, not false.

     

    However it is not self-contradictory; as, it lays out an exception to the thou shall not kill clause, which (although totally arbitrary) saves it from being contradictory.

     

    I don’t think that Stef claims a statement like “killing is wrong for everyone except people in green uniforms” is self-contradictory. But it does contradict reality, because uniforms don’t change any fundamental natures about human beings or physical laws. Just like saying “gravity attracts matter unless you wear this magical hat” isn’t self-contradictory. But it does contradict reality, because hats don’t change the physical nature of humans and allow them to fly.

    The author seems to recognize this in the paragraph before when he says “Thus he gages this claim as arbitrary and rationally unsubstantiated, insisting that is contradictory with reality and thus false.” But then he conflates this with a claim of self-contradiction, which it isn’t.

     

    claims of moral truth, like claims of scientific truth, apply to everyone, everywhere, at all times. So, it is contradictory to propose a theory: "killing is wrong and killing is right", just as it is contradictory to claim: "gravity attracts and gravity repels".

    This is usually expressed in instances, in the course of general conversation as: "It's wrong for me to kill you, but right for a soldier to kill an enemy", and "this rock falls down, but that rock resting over that geiser is falling up". It's an attempt to obfuscate the basic contradiction by distracting the listener with circumstantial and irrelevant details.

     

Page 1 of 4 (46 items) 1 2 3 4 Next >
Copyright 2005-2012 By Stefan Molyneux
Powered by Community Server (Non-Commercial Edition), by Telligent Systems