Freedomain Radio

I'm in a bit of a strange situation. About two years ago, my father-in-law died. I decided to be 'noble,' and take on his responsibilities which, I now regret. Included in this, making sure his widowed wife has a place to live, and taking care of his daughter--whom has a daughter of her own. So, now my wife and I live with three other people, including a toddler whom is almost 3 years-old. My sister-in-law and mother-in-law are terrible role models and are completely lacking in parenting skills. Their idea of discipline is waiting until they can't handle the screaming child and lashing out in inappropriate times--for example, when the child accidentally pees or poos herself, they get extremely angry and usually end up punishing her. Should I even bother involving myself? (I have already, trying to show my sister-in-law and mother-in-law some tactics, like a time out). If I should involve myself, to what level? The child behaves very nicely when my wife and I take care of her. She response well to instruction and loves being involved in anything we do. But, as soon as her mother or grandmother comes around, she acts out in various ways--usually with screaming, yelling, throwing items, etc.

I'm at my wits end. Any help/advice would be appreciated.

Wow that's a really tough situation and I sure can understand why you feel responsibility for the children involved. Perhaps, if Stef has some time, this could make a good Skype/call, because I think this is clearly something you would need some deep real-time interaction to deal with.

You could try putting this into an email directly to him or joining the call-in show this Sunday?

Lance:

I'm at my wits end.

I'm curious what was going on for you when you wrote this part. Could you help us to understand this aspect of your post a bit better?

Dave Bockman:

Lance:

I'm at my wits end.

I'm curious what was going on for you when you wrote this part. Could you help us to understand this aspect of your post a bit better?

 

I have run out of ideas. I don't know where to go from here. I don't have the wits to figure out how to solve this issue, which, is why I'm posting about it. Are you curious as to my psychological/emotional state of being during this post? Or just, why I wrote, "I'm at my wits end?"

Lance:

Dave Bockman:

Lance:

I'm at my wits end.

I'm curious what was going on for you when you wrote this part. Could you help us to understand this aspect of your post a bit better?

 

 

I have run out of ideas. I don't know where to go from here. I don't have the wits to figure out how to solve this issue, which, is why I'm posting about it. Are you curious as to my psychological/emotional state of being during this post? Or just, why I wrote, "I'm at my wits end?"

That part certainly jumped out at me when I read your post so yes, I was curious what your motivations were or if you had even stopped to consider what your motivations were in writing that.

I must admit to experiencing intense, I mean flamingly angry, negative emotion after reading your post-- I'm not saying you caused it or 'you're bad' or anything like that, however that emotion was immediately followed by a strong desire to lash out at you, which I'm trying very hard not to do-- if I fail, I will try to make amends if I can.

I respectfully ask you to take a step back from your situation for a moment and look at the various participants in your conundrum.

Why are you not protecting this poor child?

Surely you're aware of the long lasting and extremely difficult to solve mental and physical problems which arise for people who are violently verbally abused when they soil themselves as children? My firsthand experience with this as well as the experiences of perhaps half a dozen other people with whom I speak regularly who suffered from this kind of assault is that it is only one of many different types of abuse being perpetrated against the child-- in other words, a parent or caretaker who is so unbelievably despicable as to scream at their child for soiling themselves is also engaging freely in many other forms of abuse.

Help me to understand what you don't understand about the damage these people are doing to a completely innocent 3 year old child? Why have you not intervened? How can I help to stop this abuse?

Dave Bockman:

 

 

Why are you not protecting this poor child?

Help me to understand what you don't understand about the damage these people are doing to a completely innocent 3 year old child? Why have you not intervened? How can I help to stop this abuse?

If you see a person yelling at their children in a shopping mart, do you tell them to stop abusing their children? I don't.

As far as intervening, I have attempted to. That's why I stated in my first post, that I attempted to teach the child's parent and grand-parent alternative methods for instilling a lesson. But, perhaps, I was wrong in using the "time out" method.  I don't know, which is why I'm asking. What are some other techniques for disciplining?

How can you help stop the abuse? By giving me some advice about how to approach the mother and grandmother, when they seem unwilling to listen. And not telling me how angry you are that the child is being abused. Clearly, I am bothered by it too, which is why I am even going through the trouble of posting my personal situation all over the net. The child is not mine, after all. So, what right do I have to do much more than I have done?

I hope this post doesn't upset you any more than you already are.

It's a really difficult situation, and I'm sorry you have found yourself in it. 

Not sure if this will be helpful or not.  I would say that you don't 'have to' do anything  it's all a matter what consequences you want.  I think it's also important to be realistic about what you actually can control yourself, because clearly many things you cannot ultimately control in this situation.  So, I think all you can do is be open and honest with them and tell them how you feel with all the empathy, politeness, and respect you can muster.  In terms of the young child, it's really not your issue except that you have to see it.  So perhaps you can tell them that you have difficulty with this situation and that you would like to try to work it out.  I know that you made this agreement, but personally I don't know whether you it is beneficial or not to adhere strictly to it (I would love to see people's opinions on this).  So perhaps by telling them something along the lines of how it's affecting you and you want to try to work on things or else they could make other arrangements.  Perhaps that seems horribly harsh and problematic but I really think you have to consider your own happiness.  Perhaps I'm totally off base, let me know what you think.

KevinV:

It's a really difficult situation, and I'm sorry you have found yourself in it. 

Not sure if this will be helpful or not.  I would say that you don't 'have to' do anything  it's all a matter what consequences you want.  I think it's also important to be realistic about what you actually can control yourself, because clearly many things you cannot ultimately control in this situation.  So, I think all you can do is be open and honest with them and tell them how you feel with all the empathy, politeness, and respect you can muster.  In terms of the young child, it's really not your issue except that you have to see it.  So perhaps you can tell them that you have difficulty with this situation and that you would like to try to work it out.  I know that you made this agreement, but personally I don't know whether you it is beneficial or not to adhere strictly to it (I would love to see people's opinions on this).  So perhaps by telling them something along the lines of how it's affecting you and you want to try to work on things or else they could make other arrangements.  Perhaps that seems horribly harsh and problematic but I really think you have to consider your own happiness.  Perhaps I'm totally off base, let me know what you think.

 

Thanks for the sympathy. I will take your advice into account. I don't think you're off base. I've tried to talk with my wife to get her on board with an ultimatum, without success. She is convinced that she must take care of her mother. My wife made a promise, to her father, that her mother would always have a place to live. So, in short, I think the "comply or move out" scenario is out of the question. Which leads me to this question--how do I convince someone, whom is complacent, to change? I think I might have some luck sitting down and talking with my sister-in-law. I would like to have some alternative disciplining methods lined up, for the inevitable question of, "if I don't spank or yell, how do I make my child listen?" As some of you may imagine, children are very adept liars. For an example, when it is time to go to bed, the child in question will lie about having to go to the restroom, just to avoid going to bed. What is an appropriate response when a child lies to a parent?

I would recommend checking out naomialdort.com and this video in particular: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H75gbkLvIRA

Put yourself in the shoes of the child.  How do you feel when you are bossed around?  Does it make sense that you would use tactics to avoid or deceive those who try to control you?  Why is it important that the child goes to bed at a certain time?  Is it that you think obedience is virtuous?  Do you not trust your child enough to go to sleep when she is tired?

I say "your child" here, although I realize that the child is not actually yours.  Just some things to consider.

anastasiaw:

I would recommend checking out naomialdort.com and this video in particular: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H75gbkLvIRA

Put yourself in the shoes of the child.  How do you feel when you are bossed around?  Does it make sense that you would use tactics to avoid or deceive those who try to control you?  Why is it important that the child goes to bed at a certain time?  Is it that you think obedience is virtuous?  Do you not trust your child enough to go to sleep when she is tired?

I say "your child" here, although I realize that the child is not actually yours.  Just some things to consider.

Thanks for the links, I'll check them out.

As for your question for trusting the child to know when it is tired, no I do not trust the child. Children get cranky and start acting out when they are tired. I think that going to sleep at a decent hour is a good thing. It teaches the child to plan ahead for the following day, as apposed to how she is feeling in a particular moment in time. It teaches a very valuable lesson, in my oppinion. I'm open for discussion on this topic though. Why do you think that a child knows what's best for them? How would they know if they don't have the experience?

I'm not sure that forcing a child to go to sleep at a particular time really teaches them anything about planning ahead.  They're not the ones doing the planning, then.  They're just being coerced and they will probably feel as such.  Think back, what did you experience when you were told to go to bed at a certain time when you were a child?

anastasiaw:

I'm not sure that forcing a child to go to sleep at a particular time really teaches them anything about planning ahead.  They're not the ones doing the planning, then.  They're just being coerced and they will probably feel as such.  Think back, what did you experience when you were told to go to bed at a certain time when you were a child?

Do you also feel that when you feed a child, that you are coercing them to eat? After all, they are not learning to feed themselves, or even good nutrition. 

That doesn't really make sense to me.  If the child didn't want to eat I wouldn't force her to eat when she's not hungry.

anastasiaw:

That doesn't really make sense to me.  If the child didn't want to eat I wouldn't force her to eat when she's not hungry.

No one is using force to make her fall asleep. We are simply placing her in her room at an appropriate time, so that she doesn't stay up all night, bouncing off of the walls, getting into things she shouldn't and disrupting the sleep of others in the house with responsibilities. We even entertain her, with reading her books, or singing songs. 

Are you seriously suggesting, that a child that disrupts the sleep of the breadwinners, should be allowed to do so, even though it could cost someone their job? At what point do you draw the line between what the child wants and what is necessary for day-to-day life?

Again, I would suggest checking out the website that I linked and perhaps some unschooling websites if you are really interested in this further.  And I would also suggest considering scenarios from the child's point of view.

I think the websites can provide a better resource than I can because I do not have children of my own and cannot answer the questions of practicality as effectively as people who employ these tactics (of non-coercion), maintain their jobs, and turn out healthy and happy adults can.