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Latest post Sun, Aug 6 2006 12:01 PM by NoDeity. 110 replies.
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  • Sun, Aug 6 2006 6:45 AM In reply to

    Re: Determinism - Free Will - My FINAL post on this.

    NoDeity:

    Tenderfoot:
    All my discussions of randomness have been to support the plausibility of the "non-deterministic" portion of this definition.   I think all the other portions are generally accepted.

    I think it would be helpful if you could show how wave-particle duality makes self-causal freewill plausible. 

    The fundamentally unpredictable nature of individual atoms makes it plausible that non-deterministic (i.e. random) events occur in the brain.  In fact, it makes it certain, since the brain is constructed of atoms.

    Computers are also constructed of atoms, of course, so random events occur within them as well, but the computer's circuits do not pay attention to individual events, only to large numbers of such events.   The behaviours of large numbers of objects (e.g. electrons) are statistically predictable.  Therefore the random behaviour of each individual electron within a computer chip does not matter.

    As computer chips are miniaturized, these random behaviours will become more and more important, eventually reaching a point where they cannot be ignored.   At that point, future miniaturization will become impossible.   A Cal Tech article on this topic says:

    ...in the next few decades, our ability to miniaturize circuits in silicon will hit bottom. “Information technologies for the most part treat electrons and photons like they were basketballs,”  says Preskill. “You bat electrons around in a circuit, or send photons down a fiber and count them.” But we’re approaching the size where classical physics falters and quantum effects take over."

    Brain components (e.g. the cellular components within each neuron) are much smaller than the components within a computer chip.   It therefore seems plausible that random quantum effects manifest themselves, at least occasionally, in ways that affect events within the brain.

    Extremely tiny events in a complex system can have profound effects on the outcome.   The popular illustration of this phenomenon involves a butterfly flapping its wings in China, thereby causing a hurricane to hit Florida.   Solid mathematics stand behind this.

    If a random, quantum event occurs within a single neuron, causing it to fire a fraction of a millisecond sooner or later than it otherwise would, this can plausibly have a profound effect on brain function.   Millions of neurons are always firing simultaneously in chain reactions.   It is probably very important whether the impulses from one group of neurons reach a particular brain area slightly sooner or slightly later than impulses from a different group.  Random quantum events that affect this timing could therefore be profoundly important. 

    When a brain needs to come up with a solution to a problem, it searches its storehouse of memories for patterns and recollections that might be relevant and useful.   It tries to piece together disparate items of information in order to invent new solutions to its current problem.   The choice of the memories it selects during this process would obviously be crucial.   The process of accessing memories involves firing neurons in sequence.   If the sequential order is disturbed by random quantum events, different memories will be accessed.    This means the brain has access to randomly-generated sets of information from which different potential answers can be extrapolated.   It allows the brain to engage in stochastic simulations (which require true randomness in order to be useful).

    The random, entirely unpredictable quantum events I have described occur entirely within the brain.   Nothing outside the brain causes the events to be random, or can prevent them from being random.   Therefore, they can only be described as self-causal.

    Putting these pieces together, we have a fairly plausible (albeit speculative) description of self-causal, non-deterministic brain activities.  This is only one portion of my definition of free will, but it's a crucial one.

    "Veni, Vidi, volo in domum redire." (I came, I saw, I want to go home.)
  • Sun, Aug 6 2006 7:00 AM In reply to

    • Stewart
    • Top 200 Contributor
    • Joined on Sat, Jun 3 2006
    • Boston, MA
    • Posts 257

    Re: Determinism - Free Will - My FINAL post on this.

    Tenderfoot, that's a much better explanation of what you believe 'free will' to be than, I think, we've gotten before. Thanks. It still appear to be equating freedom with physical unpredictability, which isn't really the conversation that we've been having here. By the definition you've given above, it seems that you think that modern computers equipped with the Quantis card would also be capable of exhibiting this form of self-causality, which you claim is the crucial component to free will. I don't think that's what you mean, but it certainly seems that way.

    - Stewart

  • Sun, Aug 6 2006 7:17 AM In reply to

    Re: Determinism - Free Will - My FINAL post on this.

    Foogle:
    ...it seems that you think that modern computers equipped with the Quantis card would also be capable of exhibiting this form of self-causality, which you claim is the crucial component to free will.

    Yes, the Quantis card gives computers the ability to exhibit self-causal behaviours and, therefore, to produce useful stochastic simulations.

    But computers still lack other necessary components of free will, such as consciousness and the ability to experience emotional pain and pleasure.

    If a computer is constructed that combines all the elements I listed in my definition, I will concede that the computer has free will.   This happy event will confirm that determinism is false. 

    "Veni, Vidi, volo in domum redire." (I came, I saw, I want to go home.)
  • Sun, Aug 6 2006 7:28 AM In reply to

    Re: Determinism - Free Will - My FINAL post on this.

    Well certainly if the only way to be logical and scientific is to be believe in complete determinism, despite a lack of proof, then it has been a sham debate after all, fundamentally religious in epistemology! No problemo though, since it's been very clarifying for me.

    My basic position is that sometimes a combination of atoms and energy can give rise to a phenomenon larger than their component parts. This is not magic, this is science and observation.

    Prior to the rise of life, objects never ever 'moved themselves' and wandered about a landscape, or reproduced or fought or ate or died - these concepts would have been laughed at by any independent scientific observer as ridiculous.

    When life arose, these actions and interactions became common.

    No individual atom in a mouse is 'alive', yet in combination they give rise to something called 'life', which gives rise to a whole new set of nouns and verbs (mostly verbs).

    The human brain is a collection of atoms, just like a mouse. No atom has consciousness, yet in combination they produce 'consciousness'. Just as life is radically different from inanimate matter (it propels itself and reproduces), the human mind is radically different from most life (it creates new thoughts and makes decisions and so on). In other words, the human mind is to life as life is to inanimate matter - a radical departure greater than the sum of its parts in ways we do not understand as yet.

    Thanks for the debate, I'll certainty keep following the science!

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  • Sun, Aug 6 2006 12:01 PM In reply to

    • NoDeity
    • Top 500 Contributor
    • Joined on Tue, Jun 20 2006
    • British Columbia
    • Posts 244

    Re: Determinism - Free Will - My FINAL post on this.

    Life and consciousness are not things that have their own existence.  They are what certain arrangements of matter do.  Certain arrangments of matter don't "give rise to life", they do life.
    People who don't like their beliefs being laughed at shouldn't have such funny beliefs.
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