Freedomain Radio

So the b/f and I took a 4 hour drive to the south coast of England yesterday so that I could attend an interview for a work-from-home IT gig. Somehow, without my really intending it to, this turned into a 3 hour philosophical discussion about rational morality, parents, childhood psychology and ways to address conflict in relationships that don't result in misdirected anger and/or avoidance. This is the first time I've had this conversation deliberately and openly as I had been anxious that somewhere along the way we would end up in a fundamental philosophical disagreement that would leave me metaphorically stranded from my b/f on the FDR side of a wide chasm of doom.

In practice, the conversation was awesomely enjoyable and I so wish I had recorded it as it would have made a wonderful podcast for my website. I started from our main position of agreement which is that we are both rationalists (he holds a PhD in physics and was a scientist for many years, my background is maths and computers) and we both have a strong distaste for religion (although I am far more the atheist - he is agnostic or perhaps even a Deist).

Brief Aside: What I find interesting and strange about my philosophical background is that at 17 I was a militant atheist and fiercely opposed to the lowest-common-denominator consequences of socialism, but from college onwards I began to get influenced by the 'compassion' of leftists and lost all my certainty about liberty and free markets. Eventually I heard about anarchism, especially the anarchism of the anti-capitalist, environmental movement, and fell in love with the courageous freedom these people were demonstrating by living on the edge of the law and far from material comfort. I also began to envy the religious their moral clarity even though I couldn't twist my mind to believe their irrationality. Today, since encountering FDR, I am now realising that I was closer to the truth at 17 than I was twenty years later. Of course, at 17 it was all argument from anecdote and argument from effect, not first principles. But my intuition I think turned out to be good. Today I can take anarchism and moral objectivism back to my 17 year old self and say, "You were right. Here's what you were seeking."

Anyway, deviating back from the tangent, I was able to share with my b/f all the philosophy I have learned from FDR in the past month without once falling back on an argument from authority (eg "Stef says...", "I read on FDR that...") which I think is great because it means I've internalised and understood a coherent and consistent argument from first principles. We talked about secular ethics, the goals of virtue and happiness, the ways we've tried to act good by dissociating from our anger or preferences using TM or Buddhist meditation, how our childhoods leave us susceptible to irrational conditioned responses, how avoidance doesnt help, how projection doesnt help, how RTR might help and so on.

The most glorious and amusing moment was when I was explaining RTR, and the b/f sounding dubious said, "I feel anxious about discussing my feelings like that," and I'm like "You're doing it! You're doing it! That's awesome :) Where do you think the anxiety might be coming from?" which led to a wonderful chat about the potential origins of the anxieties we've experienced in our relationship so far. It was so funny and beautiful that he responded to his anxiety about RTRing by RTRing. :)

I don't think the b/f will be getting into FDR or philosophy like I have, but for me to be able to discuss what I'm learning with him, and to have opened up the RTR method for understanding ourselves and each other, this makes me very happy.

Also, I have discovered I can talk about philosophy for several hours without pause... I suspect a podcast or two may follow :)

In other less happy news, my mother has been calling me on the phone, and I've been ignoring her. I don't yet know how to defoo with minimum anguish, so I'm avoiding. I have some ideas, though, based around her frequent assertions that she 'only wants me to be happy'. "That being the case, here's what would make me happy..."

I don't think you need to win an argument with her. If you make a statement that you want some time away and need space, then that's that.  She can ignore and dance around it as much as she wants, to which you would just keep repeating your statement.

I'm happy that you have found in your b/f someone you can speak openly with and share the things so important to you.  Someone who listens and is willing to participate and share with you those things.  It's a treasure to find these individuals.

Quick followup to the boyfriend part of this story.

We went into London this evening to hang out with three fine FDR people, Hannah, Jake and Tom. This was the first time we'd met. I had a fantastic time and enjoyed myself thoroughly. It was such a gloriously beautiful experience to be able to talk politics and philosophy with such kind, engaging and open people.

Unfortunately things were not so happy on the train home, as the b/f has now seen me super-enthused and praising openness and honesty in public while I remain quite closed to him at home (with the exception of the 3 hour conversation described in the post above). Since I found FDR I must admit I've been very obsessed with it, checking the boards and listening to podcasts whenever I could. This has excluded my boyfriend because I was too scared to share FDR with him in case he rejected it (and thereby rejected me).

I do have a tendency to emotionally shut out people if I'm scared they might criticise something I find profound and important. It's fairly straightforward to figure out where this coping mechanism came from...

The irony is that it's the people I love who get shut out most often, because I care about what they think of the things that are important to me.

So now I have to somehow learn to open up to the b/f even if I think he will not agree with what's enthusing me. I hope that RTR is up to the task.

It would be a horrible shame if the open intimate honesty of FDR led to me losing a boyfriend because I couldn't talk to him about it. That's a sort of hypocrisy I could do without.

~Tess

Tess:

It would be a horrible shame if the open intimate honesty of FDR led to me losing a boyfriend because I couldn't talk to him about it. That's a sort of hypocrisy I could do without.

The really scary part of this isn't finding out whether your boyfriend got mad at you for not sharing. It's finding out if he can be honest about whatever his emotions were, and explore explore them with you.

"Improving" relationships through RTR doesn't always mean strengthening connections. Sometimes it means severing them.

I really hope things work out for you. It would be great to see another couple survive the transition.

And it's not going to expose anything that wasn't already there.  All we can do is our best.

ps. I'm so glad you had such a great time!  I'm feeling a little jealous.

GregG:

"Improving" relationships through RTR doesn't always mean strengthening connections. Sometimes it means severing them.

I really hope things work out for you. It would be great to see another couple survive the transition.

Hi Greg,

Objectively, chances don't seem high do they?

Here I am valuing honesty at the top of my hierarchy of values, and the person I'm least honest with is my boyfriend, which says an awful lot about both of us and who we are in each other's company. I'm obviously hiding a fair (hopefully small) amount of myself in order to avoid testing the resilience of the relationship. But then I've always had to do that with everyone I ever met in life: friend, family or partner; so it just seems normal. With some people (like my mother) I have to hide myself almost entirely. With others, the barriers are a lot lower. But having no barriers at all ... I've never lived that way. I can hardly even conceive of it.

I do feel that if my relationship were to end then every subsequent relationship would also fail, unless I worked on myself to lower my own barriers to honesty and then found someone willing to respond in kind.

I ask myself now if I could say all this to my boyfriend, and I'm not sure if I could. I fear he would end the relationship if I admitted I couldn't be honest with him because of my fear he would end the relationship... 

So really I have no choice - it's be honest and see what happens, or it's inevitable doom.

It's so hard to be openly honest about my feelings though, because I'm an introvert and all my thinking goes on inside my head, not by relating to others. So during times when I'm really being honest with myself, I'm totally closed to the outside world. Then after I've reached a conclusion, I open up again. I hate sharing half-baked thoughts (and I don't know why).

Greg, thanks for your comment, it really helped. I sensed you felt I wasn't aware that RTR might lead to my relationship ending, or that I wasn't willing to face that possibility. You very tactfully made that point and gave me an opportunity to think this through further. Thankyou. I would like to offer you the opportunity to be more blunt in future :). I trust you.

~Tess

lch:

And it's not going to expose anything that wasn't already there.  All we can do is our best.

Agreed!

Tess:

I do feel that if my relationship were to end then every subsequent relationship would also fail, unless I worked on myself to lower my own barriers to honesty and then found someone willing to respond in kind.

I think this is a common misunderstood theme to RTR and virtue/honesty in relationships in general-- especially, especially when it comes to the family. Philosophy doesn't mean cutting people out of your life, or 'failing' with regard to staying with someone. It means bringing honesty and talking openly about the relationship as it already is.

If you're hesistant or anxious or shy from talking openly about your true feelings, you already know.

Dave Bockman:

Tess:

I do feel that if my relationship were to end then every subsequent relationship would also fail, unless I worked on myself to lower my own barriers to honesty and then found someone willing to respond in kind.

I think this is a common misunderstood theme to RTR and virtue/honesty in relationships in general-- especially, especially when it comes to the family. Philosophy doesn't mean cutting people out of your life, or 'failing' with regard to staying with someone. It means bringing honesty and talking openly about the relationship as it already is.

If you're hesistant or anxious or shy from talking openly about your true feelings, you already know.

Hi Dave,

I feel some irritation on reading your post. I don't understand how that's different from what I just said? I agree with you 100% so if what i wrote said something different then I must have expressed myself poorly, which annoys me.

~Tess.

Tess:

Hi Dave,

I feel some irritation on reading your post. I don't understand how that's different from what I just said? I agree with you 100% so if what i wrote said something different then I must have expressed myself poorly, which annoys me.

~Tess.

No, scratch that. That's not it, sorry. Something else is annoying me. I don't know what yet.

Tess:

No, scratch that. That's not it, sorry. Something else is annoying me. I don't know what yet.

Actually, yes I do, I just don't want to admit it.

Dave Bockman:

Philosophy doesn't mean cutting people out of your life, or 'failing' with regard to staying with someone. It means bringing honesty and talking openly about the relationship as it already is.

I think I'm annoyed because I thought that this was what I was doing, and you're pointing out that I'm not. I feel exposed as a fraud.

I'm scared that the relationship will 'fail' if I'm completely open, and I'm scared it will 'fail' if I'm not completely open.

I'm not really ready to bring honesty to the relationship for its own sake.

Hmm.

Tess:

Dave Bockman:

Philosophy doesn't mean cutting people out of your life, or 'failing' with regard to staying with someone. It means bringing honesty and talking openly about the relationship as it already is.

I think I'm annoyed because I thought that this was what I was doing, and you're pointing out that I'm not. I feel exposed as a fraud.

I'm scared that the relationship will 'fail' if I'm completely open, and I'm scared it will 'fail' if I'm not completely open.

I'm not really ready to bring honesty to the relationship for its own sake.

Hmm.

I'm so sorry Tess, here I am thinking I'm being helpful and it turns out I'm provoking annoyance-- my apologies. I think my observations did not lie within what you were doing (bringing honesty to your life and relationships) but the false dichotomy of 'if I'm honest, this relationship will fail'. I would put forward that if that is true, then it's not a relationship at all, because it's based on falsehood.

If a person's affection for you is partly based upon the unspoken agreement that you will never show enthusiasm for openness and honesty, I hardly see how that qualifies as a genuine relationship-- rather it is a mutually exploitative arrangement based upon prior trauma-- and I say this as an inveterate mutual exploiterer, this isn't coming from some sense of moral superiority I promise you.

What you're doing is making the relationship succeed!

Tess:

I do feel that if my relationship were to end then every subsequent relationship would also fail, unless ...

I've found that relationships that start on the right foot seem to go better than ones that didn't.  For example, more recent relationships in my life (that I've formed with a little more maturity, honesty, etc) seem to work better than some of the ones I formed long ago (with less maturity, more desire to manage anxiety, lower standards, etc).  Not that I've got it figured out, but I do a little better nowadays.

So, if this relationship "fails" or more precisely "ends", it may have something to do with the character it had when it started.  It might not end and you might be able to have a wonderful honest relationship if you two continue opening up.  However, if it happens to end I suspect you'll start your future relationship(s) with more honesty etc - and you'd only be able to form relationships with like minded others - and they'll be more rewarding and in line with your goals.

I'm not saying any of this is a fact, it's just something I've noticed in my life.

Now, this is pretty much what you said above after "unless..." but I think those honest/open relationships are what you want?

worger:

I've found that relationships that start on the right foot seem to go better than ones that didn't.  For example, more recent relationships in my life (that I've formed with a little more maturity, honesty, etc) seem to work better than some of the ones I formed long ago (with less maturity, more desire to manage anxiety, lower standards, etc).  Not that I've got it figured out, but I do a little better nowadays.

So, if this relationship "fails" or more precisely "ends", it may have something to do with the character it had when it started.  It might not end and you might be able to have a wonderful honest relationship if you two continue opening up.  However, if it happens to end I suspect you'll start your future relationship(s) with more honesty etc - and you'd only be able to form relationships with like minded others - and they'll be more rewarding and in line with your goals.

That's been the case for me as well. I do suspect though that my exposure to FDR is a game-changer. We're not talking about incrementally more mature relationships any more. We're talking about something fundamentally on a different level altogether. At least, that's how it feels to me. What do you think?