Freedomain Radio

Hi all,

I'm struggling with a challenging FOO situation.

I have been RTRing with my mom, and things seem to be going well.  She read RTR and we talked some about it (I answered some questions she had).  We've talked about my childhood and religion.  In these conversations she has been open and has not attacked me when I express my feelings.  There were ways she mistreated me growing up, but she seems open to thinking critically about them.

So where's the problem?

She wants to have a close relationship with me.  She wants to come visit me and for me to visit her on holidays and be part of the family.  Yesterday, I started to think about what that would entail and the people who I would have to interact with.  There are a number of people in my family who I either don't respect or am just not particularly interested in having anything to do with.  (I've been doing the whole "If I met them at a dinner party" thing.)  One of these people is my step-dad (who she married when I was 6).  I also do not think that any of the people in my family are happy.  I've seen some evidence of this, and I also go by reason=virtue=happiness.  There have been drug/alcohol addictions, highly destructive relationships, crippling anxieties everywhere I look.  Everyone I can think of has had some pretty major negative life experiences, and I haven't seen any evidence that anyone has put forth even half the effort necessary to gain self-knowledge like we talk about here.  I could be out of the loop somewhat on more distant relatives, but I can't imagine that there have been any changes.

(As I read over that last paragraph I felt short of breath, nauseous and light-headed.)

When I was thinking through this last night, I had the thought that I should run and save myself.  I don't think that I am going to be able to change/help everyone -- let alone anyone -- nor is it my responsibility.  And, I don't think having these people in my life is healthy for me -- my depression and suicidality throughout my teens is evidence of this.  When I thought about the possibility of deFOOing, I felt excited, almost ecstatic.

I feel an unbelievable amount of guilt for thinking and feeling these things.  When the guilt is the strongest, I have noticed that I seem to almost have lost perspective on the situation.  Almost like I'm the parent in the situation.  I feel like me leaving would be unjust and would be victimizing my mother and my family.  I also think about the FOO situations of others here at FDR, and I feel like I am being dramatic -- making a big deal out of nothing.  But, that's something I remember being told as a child, "Don't be dramatic," so I think I need to push past that.

I feel a lot of pity towards my mother.  The last time my mom and I talked (a couple days ago), I was really struggling with something (I think it was the above) and I told her that I felt a need to keep a distance from her and that I needed to explore that.  She said, "I want you to be happy, but I'm afraid of losing you."  Playing that back in my mind, I feel positively towards her and feel like I want to ease her worrying.  Part of me distrusts those feelings.

Because she has been open and sympathetic in our conversations, it seems like keeping her in my life might be beneficial in helping me gain self-knowledge, and I feel like I owe it to her.  But at the same time, if I can't see myself continuing to be a part of this family, it seems cruel to string her along.  I'm not really interested in a couple-phone-calls-a-year kind of relationship with her, and I don't think that would be healthy for her.  Maybe me leaving is the shock that the family needs...

Thank you so much for reading.  I appreciate it and any insights or questions you might have.

(I'm shaking as I attempt to click that damn "Post" button.)

Hey Robert. Is your mother in therapy?

Hi Robert

I felt a strong connection when reading your post. Maybe things about my own mother going back many years, and currently feelings about my wife, with whom I have developed a similar kind of relationship based on guilt and what she needs, that I seem unable to change (improve) whatever I do.

However, maybe based on my relationship with my daughter I can provide some insight "from the other side of the fence".  I have not really had a positive or close relationship with my daughter for a long time - I would like to say despite my best efforts, although "best" has not always been true - I do  think there has been some negative interference from my wife around this, but be that as it may (and it is not strongly relevant I don't think because, if it is true that my wife was interfering, it was in my power to react to some extent, and I failed to do this in any meaningful way), I have certainly not been a role model of a good father for her and FDR has helped me get this stuff in focus. I have given all this stuff a lot of thought and I have come to the strong conviction that my relationship with her has nothing at all to do with what I want or need or don't want etc. It would be great to have a close and positive relationship of course, but I don't think I will even mention that to her because it would be like putting some kind of obligation or guilt thing over. All I can do.... absolutely all I can do (in my view), is to be consistently supportive, open, truthful and friendly. If she ever wants to call me or feels that I might have something to offer: great. It's my job  to provide financial support of course, and practical and even emotional support if asked, and, I would say, certainly not to hassle her with stuff about what I would like etc. So, in the light of my own experience, it seems to me that your mother really has no entitlement to be laying out the kind of relationship she wants with you and so forth. I think she should simply support you in whatever you choose to do - including if you decide to break free completely. This is about your life, and not about hers.

Cheers

Derek 

PS After posting this I was thinking about The Prophet by Khalid Gibran:

On children...

Your children are not your children

They are the sons and daughters of life's longing for itself

They come through you but not from you,

And though they are with you, yet they belong not to you.

You may give them your love but not your thoughts.

For they have their own thoughts.

You may house their bodies but not their souls,

For their souls dwell in the house of tomorrow, which you cannot visit, not even in your dreams.

You may strive to be like them, but seek not to make them like you.

For life goes not backward nor tarries with yesterday.

Phil Crimmins:

Hey Robert. Is your mother in therapy?

No and neither am I.  She has expressed that she wants to and has suggested going into therapy together.  I'm not sure how the latter would work since I live a ways away, and I'm going to be moving farther away soon.  I would like to get into therapy as soon as possible, but I'm not sure I'd be able to find a good therapist down here (I've looked a little), and I'll be moving in a month or so.

Thanks, Derek.  She's not so much laying down the kind of relationship she wants with me, it's more that I know what she would prefer, and I don't see anything else really working out.  Maybe that's the same thing.

Dang, looks like you are rattled.  I notice that you feel positive when you think of leaving home ,and unplesant emotions when you talk about your family.  Could your family be trying to rattle you into staying home from grad school?

TackleTheWorld:

Dang, looks like you are rattled.  I notice that you feel positive when you think of leaving home ,and unplesant emotions when you talk about your family.  Could your family be trying to rattle you into staying home from grad school?

Thank you, yes, I am rattled.  That's an interesting suggestion.  If so, I don't think it's conscious.  I already live about 8 hours away from my parents, but I am easy to visit since my grandparents and uncle live in this city.  It's sort of our "hometown".  My grandparents grew up near here, even.

Those are very interesting and difficult questions, I would be happy to have a listen to them on a conversation if you would like...

Stefan Molyneux:

Those are very interesting and difficult questions, I would be happy to have a listen to them on a conversation if you would like...

I would like that very much, Stef.  Would you mind if we had a one-on-one conversation?  I feel particularly anxious about a conference call...  Not that other people haven't been, but I think it might be a distraction for me.

Sure, that is totally fine with me, whatever is most comfortable for you. :)

Stefan Molyneux:

Sure, that is totally fine with me, whatever is most comfortable for you. :)

Thanks, I really appreciate it.  I sent you an email.

deflationdan:

A large part of what we are is prescribed by parents.

It is not their fault. They are programmed by the culture.

It may not be their fault, but it most certainly is their responsibility.

Are you correcting me?