Freedomain Radio

I heard that most people consider themselves a better than average driver, have better than average looks and higher than average intelligence. Mathematically it would be possible for 80% of the people to actually drive better than average, but you need to come up with a pretty funny distribution. If you take a normal distribution, 50% should feel better than average and 50% worse than average (driver, looker, thinker), to be correct (in compliance with their actual capabilities). So I guess you can state people are generally in error judging their own looks/capabilities.

There is one group who has a correct assesment of their looks, brains and driving capabilities. This group is the depressed. So you tend to think:;"I am smart, I am good looking and I am going places", but if you would know the truth you would be depressed. How does this match to the statement that truth=happiness? Apparently the people with the most accurate judgement of their own situation are depressed. Truth=happiness when the knowledge is about whether or not a truck is barreling down a side street, but seemingly not about your own position in society.

Any thoughts of you brilliant good looking studs and babes?

How would you define virtue, Peter?

Hi Greg,

I'd go along with the UPB definition with a minimum of not supporting the initiation of violence against you fellow men. My problem was mostly with truth=happiness (because the people who are right, are depressed), I just got virtue in there because it belongs there. Why are you specifically interested in virtue? I must say I find it difficult to get an objective definition of virtue beyond the minimum stated by UPB consistency. Do you have a more complete definition of virtue?

You really think that recognising you are not a better than average driver, a chess grandmaster or a supermodel is what would make you depressed?

When I was depressed, I did not have an honest outlook on myself and therefore the world, although I got the impression that people around me who would not talk it through with me, may have thought I might be onto something they didn't have answers for, and worriedly stayed in their states of 'happy' and busy.
I was seeing negatives in unchangeable abstract places, to avoid realising where the unhappy feelings were coming from, which was my childhood experiences.

If people have unrealistic estimations of the value of their looks/abilities, this is grandiosity, which would be motivating, but does not mean these people would be really happy. If they value their ability to motivate themselves by these things alone..How can they ever stay happy?

pcrs:

My problem was mostly with truth=happiness (because the people who are right, are depressed),

Tuttle:

You really think that recognizing you are not a better than average driver, a chess grandmaster or a supermodel is what would make you depressed?

Sounds weird doesn't it? I had heard the statistics before (except the statement that depressed people made a correct assessment, which was new to me), but a correlation does not mean a cause effect relationship, so I guess that is the most obvious way out of the argument that controlling 1 of the variables in the correlation would make the other go along with it. Manic people have estimates that are way to high, depressed people are correct, normal people estimate their abilities a little higher than they are in fact.

I just thought there is something strange going on, and I had the same thought when I discovered T-shirts come in sizes M, L, XL, XXL. Where are the S, XS, XXS sizes? Something psychological weird is going on, the medium is not the medium size. Do people like to hear they are large?

I also wonder how reliable the statistics are.

http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=353784

No time to read it now, but curious what their explanation is. The abstract sounds promising.

pcrs:

The abstract sounds promising.

I would humbly suggest that abstractions are not helping you right now...

Cat Moody:

 

If people have unrealistic estimations of the value of their looks/abilities, this is grandiosity, which would be motivating, but does not mean these people would be really happy. If they value their ability to motivate themselves by these things alone..How can they ever stay happy?

I like that, that would explain a lot. They would cross 'happy' on a form, the weak point in the statistics is: 'what is happy?'; asking people flat out does not guarantee accurate answers. I once on a holiday in China asked a chinese guy if he was happy (never a dull day with me, I have a whole bag full of awkard questions and problems, please don't hold it against me). He responded by summing up his material possesions.

I am most sceptical of the statistic that said depressed people have an accurate estimation of their abilities, it just seems to go down a little to good in a popular psychology magazine.

I think you misunderstood Peter. My question wasn't a general one, it was directed at you.

None of the things you have mentioned seem to have any connection with virtue; looks and intelligence are things you are born with and how you use these attributes does not equal being a virtuous person.

In my experience depressed (i.e. clinically) people have a unrealistically negative outlook on life which often goes hand in hand with nihilism and amoral values. Their depression is a result of childhood trauma and therefore I don't think that woud necessarily give them a more realistic outlook of themselves and the world. What do you think?

There are also plenty of people who are not depressed but accept they are not Kate Moss, will never get into Harvard and are not particularly good drivers etc. Where do you think these people fit into this theory?

I like to think that I can speak with some experience or authority on depression (although maybe I am overestimating my ability because I am not depressed!) but I know that many, many things I believed about myself when depressed have been proven false since then.

Recognizing the truth is a prerequisite for change, if change is what will make you happy. I can augment my driving abilities by practice and instruction, go to the gym and eat better, and become erudite by study if I wish - but only if I recognize that I need to do these things (i.e. if I acknowledge the truth that I am a poor driver, am overweight, and ignorant). Having acknowledged the truth, I can work to remedy the problems - if remedying them is indeed what will make me happy. (I don't believe that any of these things will actually make a person happy... but that is another post altogether.)

Yes, truth is a prerequisite for virtue. If I admit the honest truth that I lack virtue in some areas, that honesty is a virtue in itself. Then I can work to augment my virtues by being more honest, more compassionate, etc. It is that initial honesty that gave me the opportunity to grow in virtue.

Charlotte:

Recognizing the truth is a prerequisite for change, if change is what will make you happy. I can augment my driving abilities by practice and instruction, go to the gym and eat better, and become erudite by study if I wish - but only if I recognize that I need to do these things (i.e. if I acknowledge the truth that I am a poor driver, am overweight, and ignorant). Having acknowledged the truth, I can work to remedy the problems - if remedying them is indeed what will make me happy. (I don't believe that any of these things will actually make a person happy... but that is another post altogether.)

Yes, truth is a prerequisite for virtue. If I admit the honest truth that I lack virtue in some areas, that honesty is a virtue in itself. Then I can work to augment my virtues by being more honest, more compassionate, etc. It is that initial honesty that gave me the opportunity to grow in virtue.

This has been helpful to read :) thanks for posting

I have come to recognise that I am nowhere near as clever as I thought I was pre-joining this forum. Whilst that is a bit disconcerting at first I wouldn't say it has made me depressed, if anything it has made me happier because it gives me a challenge and a goal to improve myself.