Freedomain Radio

 Kind of along similar lines, my wife and I are getting to the point where the idea of having kids is becoming very desirable. In fact, it is one of our main topics of conversation. We realize that there are a few more things we need to do to prepare for this. I am still in the process of breaking with my parents (my wife's father is dead and her mom is not a big part of her life), and we both want to go through some form of counseling to make sure that we can be as healthy and decent to our kids as possible. The problem is, neither of us makes very much money and we don't know if private or home school is really going to be an option as we both need to work. That being the case, even if you are committed to deprograming and so forth, is public school a complete non-option?

We feel very trapped by this problem. We really want to have kids before we are too old for it (not a huge problem as I am only 29 and Risa is 27) but we don't want to do anything to an innocent child that would cause irreversable damage. Any thoughts?

shantale and i were lucky that during most of the last year, we both worked jobs which were largely flexible. we alternated which would work and which would be at home. this allowed one of us to be home at all times with tanis, while one of us was earning our living. sometimes this was a little overwhelming, as we rarely get to spend any time together. but that is a reality of being a parent: you lose most of your free time together and instead focus your attention on the child. the hour or so after he goes to bed or during a nap when we both happen to be home at the same time are like mini vacations, and we try to take advantage of them as best we can. sometimes that means talking through the problems we've been experiencing without his distraction, sometimes it means just sitting on the couch and cuddling.

i think it is fairly obvious that public school isn't necessarily irreversable damage (how many of us went through that gulag and made it here?) but it could be. i wouldn't be completely opposed if i could tell the teachers, staff, etc... that tanis should be allowed to come and go as he pleased and that he would attend school and classes as he saw fit, but they would never go for that. most schools won't - hence my interest in VFS.

Charlotte:

I lived with a mother in London who had two children going to a Waldorf school. The younger was 8, and he could not read. The elder was 10, and he could barely read.

Admittedly, this is as much the parents' problem as the school's - and probably more due to the parent than the school. But I'd take care that any school you send your children to actually teaches them something.

 

 I know little of Waldorf schools, but apparently this sometimes occurs in the Sudbury Valley School as well.

I think the important question is not whether the child can or can't read, but whether or not he understands the value of it.  I think the issue with reading is children are never given a why, so they can't manage a how. 

I, personally, would not be too upset if my child couldn't read at 10, although 15 would be a different story, if that makes any sense.  I can imagine a child who would not find value in reading in his own life until he was around 10, or 4th/5th grade.

I guess an important thing to research in regards to this is the long term effects of not being able to read until one is 10 or older.  I wonder if those studies have been done.

What do you think?

I've always felt that not being able to read equates to some sort of self-imposed slavery. Just try, for a moment, to imagine how limited your life would be without the ability to read. Or perhaps even better, think of the advantages that literacy provides. This was a huge reason why slaves in the American south were forbidden to learn how to read- Literacy breeds thought which leads to things like individualism and self-improvement. It would also be very easy for people to take advantage of you. "Excuse me can I borrow that $1 bill?" ::grabs the 20::

This was a main source of frustration for me when my music education colleagues would try and equate the importance

of music learning with the importance of literacy.I believe that a solid music education can be very valuable to almost anyone but it doesn't even touch the importance of learning to read.

That all said I would be extremely worried if my child could not read by the age of 10, and probably much sooner than that. I think reading should be introduced as early as possible. If a child doesn't understand why it is important, that could easily be explained. I don't think coercion or trickery needs to be involved but reading should certainly be encouraged at a young age.

I think that learning to read is very important and one thing that people and parents have to realize is that children have their own pace. That being said, while it is important to pick the kind of school that suits your and and family best, i think it is your job as a parent to know where your child is at educationally. it is also your job to know what stuggles they have in their learning and to instill a want for learning. I read all the time  utill about 7th grade and than after that it became achore. i also never did homework starting about 4th or 5th grade. I went to public school, but i don't think it is the fault of the school that i didn't get "educated" by them. My parents dropped the ball on figuring out why i was so disinterseted in my education in that formal setting. i think public school could work for you but you have to as a parent be there when your child is struggleing. most kids don't have problems in school because of school. they have problems because of whats going on in their real life.

i do have many issues with public education. i think to expect a child or adolecant to sit through 8 hours a day followed by 2-3 hours of homeworkl 5 days a week is un realistic. I think it teaches you to get by and fit in. and when you don't it can be very trumatic. my 10th grade year i did not go to school for 3 months. my parents didn't know untill the end of that time. i hated being there and i felt trapped. children will do what they want weather you want them to or not. so you have to decide if you want to help them to succeed and how you want to go about doing that. allowing them to be honest with you and you being honest with them will aid you greatly when it comes to their education.

Alternative schooling goes by different names such as democratic, alternative, holistic, open-concept, child-led, gifted education as well as the two you already mentioned. Waldorf is the fastest growing school movement in the world. I have experienced Waldorf a bit and found it very enchanting. It was very colourful and a whole lot of fun. The Montessori school I went to was a great concept, but unfortunately due to the high tuition costs made it only affordable for the super rich. They also accepted a bribe from my cousin to allow her child to take priority in erollment. Maria Montessori's methods are excellent and it would be beneficial to read about them for yourself.

My son went to Caraway in Edmonton, Alberta. It is a holistic school which uses open concepts and the project method. It is a community of parents rather than teachers in front of desks. My son absolutely loved it there.  It may be worth it to check out their website.

www.carawayschool.ca

A man in Vancouver started a wondertree, with the program SelfDesign. He started it for his daughter and it has been going for over twenty years. They do online learning and have homeschooling resources as well as workshops. The founder, Brent Cameron has a book called Self Design: Nurturing Genius Through Natural Learning. I highly recommend this book for anyone interested in alternatives to education. You can also email the author if you have questions and he does respond.The school is doing some amazing things. Here is the link:

www.wondertree.org

This is a list of alternative schools all over the world, they refer to these ones as democratic schools

http://www.educationrevolution.org/lisofdemscho.html

Currently my almost eight year old, is at home and we are unschooling. The public school system was destroying him and ruining his love for learning. Now he is free to learn what he wants AND he is learning much more than the public system could teach him. We are hoping to move to a farm soon so we can invite other families to come and bring their children to unschool/deschool them. Eventually we would like to start our own school or unschool....

There is a man right now by the name of Sir Ken Robinson who is making changes to the education system. He has some great things to say.

www.sirkenrobinson.com

I could go on forever on this topic! I hope this has helped and I would love to hear about your experiences!

Nadine

Thank you for a wonderfully informative post, Nadine! 

I can't wait to explore all of those websites you posted!  I'd love to see more on Ken Robinson's thoughts, especially, as I found his TED talk extremely inspiring.

shantale:

I think that learning to read is very important and one thing that people and parents have to realize is that children have their own pace.

You are absolutely right. I am starting to think that reading later may even be better for a child. My son is eight and now that he reads, he is bombarded by the messages that are everywhere. It seems to be a burden on him. Magazines and billboards may hold messages that he does not need or want going into his head. They need to be carefree children. They  will learn to read when they feel they have a need for it and when they are ready. That may be four or fourteen. I have heard of both. The thing is that it be pleasurable for them. When they are ready and interested, it will be easy.

shantale:

i think public school could work for you but you have to as a parent be there when your child is struggleing. most kids don't have problems in school because of school. they have problems because of whats going on in their real life.

I had my son in public school and it did not work. I went to meetings once or twice a week and was always meet by a group of rigid people determined to protect the sytem. The public school is not a welcoming place for parents. There is no space to volunteer and when you go there they stare at you and act uncomfortable. When I went into volunteer they put me away with a stapler and thousands of booklets to make.

Many kids are having problems in school. Even the ones who may seem to be doing okay, don't enjoy it. They don't speak about their learning with passion, curiousity and excitement! The system is not designed to meet the needs of the learner, and kids are falling behind and wasting time. Teachers seemed stressed out to meet deadlines and class grade average expectations. The school serves the system.

Another thing that scares me is the people that write textbooks. Corporations and special interest groups. The school is also subject to "bribes" if they put up posters or expose children to a product.

The school system, to me, seems to be ineffective. It is a myth that you can force someone to learn something that they do not feel they have a need for.

I think that there are much better options out there.

Nadine